4520 réponses à ce sujet

[CroGamer002]

@CrutchCricket

You misunderstood me.

I didn't said they are superior to Reapers, but they do stand a chance against Reapers.

Also, it's been 100s of millions if not even billions of years since Leviathans were defeated by Reapers first time around.
That's a long time for those fellas to improve upon and evolve.

Hell, with ease they defeated that Reaper in end of Leviathan DLC.
Reason why they don't go in direct on Reapers, is because they are heavily outnumbered.
And their way to defeat Reapers that easily most certainly has some drawback, that we haven't seen.

Also because they were in hiding, they had to limit their numbers for it due to easier hiding and less resources for being spend.



With Control ending, organics may surpass or at least get close to Reaper capabilities and able to get rid off them with convectional means.

Again, that would most certainly take millions of years, while Reapers can quite possibly evolve as well since they'll be doing guard duty instead of harvesting.

[Argolas]

I am pretty sure that the Leviathans are able to assume control over the reapers (in Control) or even over everyone they please (in Synthesis). However, this is merely an interpretation although it seems very likely. Note that the Leviathans were never defeated by the reapers, the catalyst used some other pawns against them. There was no reaper at all when the Leviathans were created because the very first reaper is Harbinger, the Leviathan Reaper.

[Xilizhra]

Well, in Synthesis, the beam would affect the Leviathans just like everyone else. It might disincline them from trying to enthrall everyone.

[R3MUS]

Argolas wrote...

I am pretty sure that the Leviathans are able to assume control over the reapers (in Control) or even over everyone they please (in Synthesis). However, this is merely an interpretation although it seems very likely. Note that the Leviathans were never defeated by the reapers, the catalyst used some other pawns against them. There was no reaper at all when the Leviathans were created because the very first reaper is Harbinger, the Leviathan Reaper.

I don't think Leviathans can control robots like Geth and Reapers. Hmm.. Reapers do have organic minds though. So i guess they can.


But the pawns the Catalyst build were probably 100% machines and therefore the Leviathans couldn't control them.

[Argolas]

R3MUS wrote...

Argolas wrote...

I am pretty sure that the Leviathans are able to assume control over the reapers (in Control) or even over everyone they please (in Synthesis). However, this is merely an interpretation although it seems very likely. Note that the Leviathans were never defeated by the reapers, the catalyst used some other pawns against them. There was no reaper at all when the Leviathans were created because the very first reaper is Harbinger, the Leviathan Reaper.

I don't think Leviathans can control robots like Geth and Reapers. Hmm.. Reapers do have organic minds though. So i guess they can.


But the pawns the Catalyst build were probably 100% machines and therefore the Leviathans couldn't control them.

Exactly. Leviathans do not seem to able to control Synthetics, but they can control reapers=> Synthesized hybrids seem to be the easiest targets. Thus, it would make sense for a Leviathan-made AI to support this Synthesis- this is what the thread in my signature is about. Control does not synthesize anyone, but I think the reapers are rather more dangerous than helpful there, regarding the Leviathan threat.

[cyrexwingblade]

I see the IT debate has taken over the last few pages. I was pro-IT, still would be, but for IT to *function* now, you have to say the *entire ending* is a lie to the gamer. The entire cinematic, the speech, all the panels and cut-scenes, are all lies that make up the dream Shepard is having as the Catalyst takes over and continues the Cycle or achieves its goal in Synthesis.

The IT debate has boiled down to 'do you accept the presented information or not'. If you accept the ending as presented after the choice, IT is not accurate.

Would IT be more interesting, and more artistic than what we have now? Yes.

Is IT actually intended by what we have now? No.

[CrutchCricket]

Mesina2 wrote...

@CrutchCricket

You misunderstood me.

I didn't said they are superior to Reapers, but they do stand a chance against Reapers.

Sorry, I disagree. If they stood a chance they would've come out and fight, tried to take back their galaxy. But they didn't. Because they can't.

Also, it's been 100s of millions if not even billions of years since Leviathans were defeated by Reapers first time around.
That's a long time for those fellas to improve upon and evolve.

Maybe. If they didn't spend their time hiding. I don't think any advancements have been made. I think they're just trying to survive because they know they'll be curbstomped if they reveal themselves. Or maybe they only believe so. Maybe they're afraid.

Hell, with ease they defeated that Reaper in end of Leviathan DLC.
Reason why they don't go in direct on Reapers, is because they are heavily outnumbered.
And their way to defeat Reapers that easily most certainly has some drawback, that we haven't seen.

Also because they were in hiding, they had to limit their numbers for it due to easier hiding and less resources for being spend.

We don't see how easy or difficult it was. One Reaper, three Leviathans, suprise attack. It could've taken a lot out of them. Also I maintain that it is very plausible the Reaper didn't just keel over from their psychic assault but was merely stunned into falling in the water where the Leviathans could persumably do something else to kill it.

Actually come to think of it, they may have simply been able to exploit the Reaper's control systems in a similar manner to what happened with Sovereign. The overload from killing Saren weakened it enough that it lost its shields and started falling. But it wasn't dead. The Normandy's shots had to do that.

The Leviathan attack might be similar. Overloaded the control system-> Reaper falls-> Leviathans tear it apart conventionally.

With Control ending, organics may surpass or at least get close to Reaper capabilities and able to get rid off them with convectional means.

Again, that would most certainly take millions of years, while Reapers can quite possibly evolve as well since they'll be doing guard duty instead of harvesting.

No they won't because Reapers will be upgrading as well at a much faster rate, from a higher tech point.. Even if you ignore the disconnect and focus solely on guard duty Reapers must always stay ahead of organics if they are to fullfil the guard role.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 05 octobre 2012 - 05:44 .

[Seival]

cyrexwingblade wrote...

I see the IT debate has taken over the last few pages. I was pro-IT, still would be, but for IT to *function* now, you have to say the *entire ending* is a lie to the gamer. The entire cinematic, the speech, all the panels and cut-scenes, are all lies that make up the dream Shepard is having as the Catalyst takes over and continues the Cycle or achieves its goal in Synthesis.

The IT debate has boiled down to 'do you accept the presented information or not'. If you accept the ending as presented after the choice, IT is not accurate.

Would IT be more interesting, and more artistic than what we have now? Yes.

Is IT actually intended by what we have now? No.

This is really constructive point about the "IT". Thanks for voicing it

Modifié par Seival, 05 octobre 2012 - 10:27 .

[Seival]

Argolas wrote...

I am pretty sure that the Leviathans are able to assume control over the reapers (in Control) or even over everyone they please (in Synthesis). However, this is merely an interpretation although it seems very likely. Note that the Leviathans were never defeated by the reapers, the catalyst used some other pawns against them. There was no reaper at all when the Leviathans were created because the very first reaper is Harbinger, the Leviathan Reaper.

Well, control and domination is not just Leviathans' culture, it's their physiology. And they are not some silly "slavers" like a Batarians. Leviathans just exist in their own way. They are so above any other life in the galaxy...

...At the same time, the Leviathans are wise and reasonable. It's a privilege to be under their control, not a punishment. When everything goes well enough you don't even notice that someone is controlling you (just like in case of modern human society).

Modifié par Seival, 05 octobre 2012 - 10:29 .

[MerchantGOL]

Bump

[Seival]

CrutchCricket wrote...

No they won't because Reapers will be upgrading as well at a much faster rate, from a higher tech point.. Even if you ignore the disconnect and focus solely on guard duty Reapers must always stay ahead of organics if they are to fullfil the guard role.

I think that technological advancement has limits. When the Reapers will stop evolving, Galactic Civilization will keep evolving. So, I think this has to end up in inevitable Synthesis anyway.

[Seival]

Just finished new fan-art, and called it "Controlled Synthesis". Not quite happy with the picture in general (the concept was too complicated for me, I guess), but I hope it's clear that we see Shepard-Catalyst (symbolical image of course), initiating Synthesis.

Since it's both Control and Synthesis related, I think I should post it in both support threads

[Seival]

R3MUS wrote...

Argolas wrote...

I am pretty sure that the Leviathans are able to assume control over the reapers (in Control) or even over everyone they please (in Synthesis). However, this is merely an interpretation although it seems very likely. Note that the Leviathans were never defeated by the reapers, the catalyst used some other pawns against them. There was no reaper at all when the Leviathans were created because the very first reaper is Harbinger, the Leviathan Reaper.

I don't think Leviathans can control robots like Geth and Reapers. Hmm.. Reapers do have organic minds though. So i guess they can.


But the pawns the Catalyst build were probably 100% machines and therefore the Leviathans couldn't control them.

Hasks have organic minds indeed (there is a war asset about hask brain study as far a I remember). Thats why Leviathans can mind-control hasks directly.

Reaper warships have synthetic collective mind (the Catalyst), so Leviathans can't mind-control them. But, those warships also have vital organic parts, so I believe Leviathans can control those warships another way (paralize, slow, blind, etc.).

Also, some Leviathans' abilities can affect pure synthetic objects (pulse which disabled the shuttle for example).

Hmm... maybe Leviathans don't have abilities/weapons which may kill directly? It looks like very probable.

Modifié par Seival, 07 octobre 2012 - 12:28 .

[Seival]

By the way, absence of damaging weapons might be the reason why the original Catalyst managed to defeat the Leviathans.

Fighting by controlling, influencing, and disabling. No guns, no lasers, no rockets, no bombs. Just "mind blasts" and "mind controls". It's possible that Leviathans never had an army or other millitary forces. Never had warships. They clearly have some ships, but I think those have no weapons at all...

...If this what was intended, then Leviathans are even more unique than we initially thought

Modifié par Seival, 07 octobre 2012 - 10:46 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

This is something that I have thought about for some days now.

Who have considered using the Reaper forces to overthrow criminals or tyrants like Aria and give the people in these areas an actual chance to establish their own goverments?

[Seival]

Lizardviking wrote...

This is something that I have thought about for some days now.

Who have considered using the Reaper forces to overthrow criminals or tyrants like Aria and give the people in these areas an actual chance to establish their own goverments?

I think that such problems should be resolved by galactic civilization itself. If the Catalyst will interfere with lesser races business too much, lesser races will become too dependable on the Catalyst. That's why Shepard-Catalyst should be involved in resolving only major problems (inevitable catastrophes, unneeded wars, illegal AI researches, etc).

Modifié par Seival, 10 octobre 2012 - 11:21 .

[Roguefan]

I think that such problems should be resolved by galactic civilization itself. If the Catalyst will interfere with lesser races business too much, lesser races will become too dependable on the Catalyst. That's why Shepard-Catalyst should be involved in resolving only major problems (inevitable catastrophes, unneeded wars, illegal AI researches, etc).

I agree.  Mostly.  Looking at it  from the perspective of a 100% Paragon, the Shepard Catalyst would know enough to realise that if it were to interfere in the minutiae of day-to-day galactic life, there would be major consequences further down the line.  Given the size of the galaxy and the number of species living in it, catastrophes, wars etc. would be inevitable as these species evolve and grow. 

I believe that the only things that would prompt the Shepard Catalyst to intervene would be an Extinction Level Event that would threaten the galaxy as a whole.

From the end of ME onwards, I believe the only things the Shepard Catalyst and her/it's Reapers will be involved in would be:

1.  Rebuilding the relays and helping with Galactic Reconstruction;
2.  When this is done, she/it anb her/it's Reapers will proceed out of the Galaxy and into the larger universe; exploring and constructing new relays to enable the universes' inhabitants to evolve and co-exist peacefully together;
3.  Ensure that there is nothing to threaten the existence of all life as we know it, and;
4.  Looking for the Leviathan's.

As for point number 4 above, the Leviathan's (as revealed in the DLC), fully believe that they are the apex species in the galaxy.  With the threat of their Reapers diminished somewhat, I believe that they will begin to come out of hiding and attempt to re-establish their position in this regard.  Remember they went into hiding when they realised the Reapers they created were begining to threaten their existence.  The Shepard Catalyst will attempt to find them to ensure that this does not happen.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Seival wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

This is something that I have thought about for some days now.

Who have considered using the Reaper forces to overthrow criminals or tyrants like Aria and give the people in these areas an actual chance to establish their own goverments?

I think that such problems should be resolved by galactic civilization itself. If the Catalyst will interfere with lesser races business too much, lesser races will become too dependable on the Catalyst. That's why Shepard-Catalyst should be involved in resolving only major problems (inevitable catastrophes, unneeded wars, illegal AI researches, etc).

I agree that on a long term plan, the catalyst hould try to maintain a hands-off approach.

But consider the immediate post war scenario, the catalust is already taking a large presence on the galactic scene, I do not see the error in trying to stop people like Aria in taking advantage of a weakend galaxy to seize more power for themselves and create their own petty states.

[RockSW]

dictatorshep? no thank you

[CrutchCricket]

Lizardviking wrote...
I agree that on a long term plan, the catalyst hould try to maintain a hands-off approach.

But consider the immediate post war scenario, the catalust is already taking a large presence on the galactic scene, I do not see the error in trying to stop people like Aria in taking advantage of a weakend galaxy to seize more power for themselves and create their own petty states.

Disagree. No organic really knows what happened in Control. The Crucible fired its blue wave, the Reapers stopped attacking and started rebuilding. Everyone's confused as hell but no one knows anything.

I've made several posts on here and in my thread about why the less seen of Commander and the Reapers the better.

On top of all that... Shepard and the Reapers joined forces- they fight crime? I don't think so. Seems far too small and insignificant for it to worry about.

I think first order of business is rebuilding the relays. And destroying the Leviathans. They're too big of a threat to the rest of the galaxy and the only ones who if allowed to spread could potentially pose a threat to Commander itself. After that it's observing from the shadows, interferring as little as possible and only if necessary and then, only indirectly through unknowing agents. Until the disconnect.

[Roguefan]

Lizardviking wrote...

Seival wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

This is something that I have thought about for some days now.

Who have considered using the Reaper forces to overthrow criminals or tyrants like Aria and give the people in these areas an actual chance to establish their own goverments?

I think that such problems should be resolved by galactic civilization itself. If the Catalyst will interfere with lesser races business too much, lesser races will become too dependable on the Catalyst. That's why Shepard-Catalyst should be involved in resolving only major problems (inevitable catastrophes, unneeded wars, illegal AI researches, etc).

I agree that on a long term plan, the catalyst hould try to maintain a hands-off approach.

But consider the immediate post war scenario, the catalyst is already taking a large presence on the galactic scene, I do not see the error in trying to stop people like Aria in taking advantage of a weakend galaxy to seize more power for themselves and create their own petty states.

To be honest, I don't think that Aria is that way inclined.  She did say in ME2, that Omega was her domain, and she had no aspirations beyond maintaining control of that, or words to that effect.

But I do concede that profiteering would be wide-spread in a post-war scenario.  The Shepard Catalyst may decide to intervene if it deems this to be a threat to the balance of power in the galaxy.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

CrutchCricket wrote...
On top of all that... Shepard and the Reapers joined forces- they fight crime? I don't think so. Seems far too small and insignificant for it to worry about.

Laugh if you want about the idea of Reapers fighting crime, but we are not talking about catching small time criminals.

Here is an interesting post made by the user "Dean_the_Young" from this thread.

And Aria orders murders and is involved in the drug trade and has many other life-destroying criminal enterprises afoot.If that doesn't sound too serious, I'd recommend a comparison for context. Akuze was something like 50 casualties, and it was an exceptional event.

Mexico, just last year, lost over 15,000 people in the drug war. Not an invasion, not a natural disaster, not a genocidal invasion: just a government trying to crack down on drug dealers, and drug dealers fighting not only the government and eachother. 15,000 is 300 times the deathtoll of Akuze. And Mexico is just one country on just one planet. Aria runs an interstellar criminal empire.

Yes, casualties will rise during a crackdown. Yes, but drug tolls and gang violence are constant, continuous sores on socieity. A group of well-trained, well-armed people being killed is certainly more noticable, but it doesn't eclipse the white-noise that is so prevalent that it's often just ignorred.

[Xilizhra]

Here's the tricky thing about Aria: she may be responsible for a lot of death, but she also seems to be a stabilizing influence, and noticeably more moderate than the other criminal elements of the region. In short, if someone other than Aria was in charge, odds are high that there'd be even more death.

[CrutchCricket]

Lizardviking wrote...
Laugh if you want about the idea of Reapers fighting crime, but we are not talking about catching small time criminals.

Here is an interesting post made by the user "Dean_the_Young" from this thread.

And Aria orders murders and is involved in the drug trade and has many other life-destroying criminal enterprises afoot.If that doesn't sound too serious, I'd recommend a comparison for context. Akuze was something like 50 casualties, and it was an exceptional event.

Mexico, just last year, lost over 15,000 people in the drug war. Not an invasion, not a natural disaster, not a genocidal invasion: just a government trying to crack down on drug dealers, and drug dealers fighting not only the government and eachother. 15,000 is 300 times the deathtoll of Akuze. And Mexico is just one country on just one planet. Aria runs an interstellar criminal empire.

Yes, casualties will rise during a crackdown. Yes, but drug tolls and gang violence are constant, continuous sores on socieity. A group of well-trained, well-armed people being killed is certainly more noticable, but it doesn't eclipse the white-noise that is so prevalent that it's often just ignorred.

Hey I know Aria's no saint. She's ME's Jabba the Hutt, only prettier. But speaking of Jabba, I don't remember Vader or Palpatine really giving that much of a damn to crack down on Jabba's empire. You might say they're evil, but no one in the Old or New Republic did much to that end either.

And that's not even the point because although these examples all roughly fit into the category of "galactic authority", they're all still very much human or on our level. On the other hand,  Commander is an incredibly advanced intelligence we're talking about here. Far beyond our level. So it's not really like the Empire cracking down on the Hutts. It's more like me bothing to stomp a particular ant because the other ants don't care much for it. Granted, if the one ant was about to kill a significant number of the other ants, then I might be concerned (because at the moment I care enough about my ant farm).

The only thing here is, on galactic scale, "significant numbers" = billions or trillions of lives. You can't tell me Aria's responsible for that.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 10 octobre 2012 - 06:09 .

[Heimdall]

The thing about the Leviathans is that I really don't think their too much of a threat. They're severely outnumbered and their abilities seem limited in scope. They survived only by hiding from the Reapers. I doubt they can take out Reapers as they did in that cutscene when they arrive in any numbers and Shepard knows where they live.

So the Leviathans should not be too much of a problem in Control, possibly even Synthesis.