4520 réponses à ce sujet

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

Here's the tricky thing about Aria: she
may be responsible for a lot of death, but she also seems to be a
stabilizing influence, and noticeably more moderate than the other
criminal elements of the region. In short, if someone other than Aria
was in charge, odds are high that there'd be even more death.

Who
says the Reapers should only  topple Aria and then stop? Removing only
Aria won't do anything, as someone worse will just step in as you
mentioned.

CrutchCricket wrote...
Hey I know Aria's no saint. She's ME's Jabba the Hutt, only prettier. But speaking of Jabba, I don't remember Vader or Palpatine really giving that much of a damn to crack down on Jabba's empire. You might say they're evil, but no one in the Old or New Republic did much to that end either.

And that's not even the point because although these examples all roughly fit into the category of "galactic authority", they're all still very much human or on our level. On the other hand,  Commander is an incredibly advanced intelligence we're talking about here. Far beyond our level. So it's not really like the Empire cracking down on the Hutts. It's more like me bothing to stomp a particular ant because the other ants don't care much for it. Granted, if the one ant was about to kill a significant number of the other ants, then I might be concerned (because at the moment I care enough about my ant farm).

The only thing here is, on galactic scale, "significant numbers" = billions or trillions of lives. You can't tell me Aria's responsible for that.

And just because they did not step in due to being unwilling or unable means the catalyst shouldn't try to improve the situation?

I know crime will always be a fact in life and the universe, but I do not see why the catalyst shouldn't try to combat interstella cartels (even though that might seem small time).

That said, since crime will always be there, one could ask the question that if hypothetically the catalyst went into omega and the nearby systems. Threw out the crime lords and helped stabilize the region, thereby creating actual goverments there, if a new hive of scum and villany would just pop up somewhere else to replace Omega.

[CrutchCricket]

Lord Aesir wrote...

The thing about the Leviathans is that I really don't think their too much of a threat. They're severely outnumbered and their abilities seem limited in scope. They survived only by hiding from the Reapers. I doubt they can take out Reapers as they did in that cutscene when they arrive in any numbers and Shepard knows where they live.

So the Leviathans should not be too much of a problem in Control, possibly even Synthesis.

True, but the cycles kept them in check, that and knowledge that if they did try anything, they'd be immediately wiped out.

If the pressure gets taken off, they will try to spread and take over like before. And while 3 may not be a threat to the Reapers, more of them could concievably challenge them.

Even that aside, their very existence suberts the free will of other organics, which is clearly against what Shepard wanted.

They must be destroyed. Only way to be sure.

[CrutchCricket]

Lizardviking wrote...
That said, since crime will always be there, one could ask the question that if hypothetically the catalyst went into omega and the nearby systems. Threw out the crime lords and helped stabilize the region, thereby creating actual goverments there, if a new hive of scum and villany would just pop up somewhere else to replace Omega.

You just answered yourself.

That and the matter of a "kept galaxy". It's a fact that having some superpower come in and fix everything leads to nothing but stagnation. Stagnation was the real galaxy killer in the cycles.

To thrive and advance you have to deal with your own problems.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 10 octobre 2012 - 06:39 .

[Seival]

Lord Aesir wrote...

The thing about the Leviathans is that I really don't think their too much of a threat. They're severely outnumbered and their abilities seem limited in scope. They survived only by hiding from the Reapers. I doubt they can take out Reapers as they did in that cutscene when they arrive in any numbers and Shepard knows where they live.

So the Leviathans should not be too much of a problem in Control, possibly even Synthesis.

I think that Leviathans are not a threat, because they are not hostile to organics at first place. And they have no reason to be hostile to peaceful synthetics as well.

[Shermos]

Seival wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

The thing about the Leviathans is that I really don't think their too much of a threat. They're severely outnumbered and their abilities seem limited in scope. They survived only by hiding from the Reapers. I doubt they can take out Reapers as they did in that cutscene when they arrive in any numbers and Shepard knows where they live.

So the Leviathans should not be too much of a problem in Control, possibly even Synthesis.

I think that Leviathans are not a threat, because they are not hostile to organics at first place. And they have no reason to be hostile to peaceful synthetics as well.

The Leviathans are not a threat the same way the English weren't a threat to the Indians and Africans and all the other natives of lands they colonised. They're not out to destroy advanced civilisation like the Reapers were, but they are imperialists who seem keen to retake their place as the "apex race".

I for one don't want humanity to become a subject race of their empire. 

Edit: Sorry for sounding confrontational. I have a strong distaste for the British Empire and it's legacy to the world. The Leviathan uncomfortably remind me of it.

Modifié par Shermos, 21 octobre 2012 - 02:43 .

[SeptimusMagistos]

Xilizhra wrote...

Here's the tricky thing about Aria: she may be responsible for a lot of death, but she also seems to be a stabilizing influence, and noticeably more moderate than the other criminal elements of the region. In short, if someone other than Aria was in charge, odds are high that there'd be even more death.

So kill the top criminal over and over again until proper civil authority spontaneously manifests itself. Simple.

[CrutchCricket]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

So kill the top criminal over and over again until proper civil authority spontaneously manifests itself. Simple.

Not sure if serious or....

[Seival]

Shermos wrote...

Seival wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

The thing about the Leviathans is that I really don't think their too much of a threat. They're severely outnumbered and their abilities seem limited in scope. They survived only by hiding from the Reapers. I doubt they can take out Reapers as they did in that cutscene when they arrive in any numbers and Shepard knows where they live.

So the Leviathans should not be too much of a problem in Control, possibly even Synthesis.

I think that Leviathans are not a threat, because they are not hostile to organics at first place. And they have no reason to be hostile to peaceful synthetics as well.

The Leviathans are not a threat the same way the English weren't a threat to the Indians and Africans and all the other natives of lands they colonised. They're not out to destroy advanced civilisation like the Reapers were, but they are imperialists who seem keen to retake their place as the "apex race".

I for one don't want humanity to become a subject race of their empire. 

Edit: Sorry for sounding confrontational. I have a strong distaste for the British Empire and it's legacy to the world. The Leviathan uncomfortably remind me of it.

I think the Leviathans' case is completely different. Control and influence is their way of existance. They can't just stop doing that and find another ways. Their phisiology connects them to all organic life on the deepest possible level. Control and influence are as vital as breathing for them. They depend on lesser races somehow, and can't exist without them. And it's not a surprise that Leviathans became the apex race with such a unique phisiology...

...In conversation with the Shepard Leviathans proved they are wise and reasonable. And they don't consider lesser races as some kind of "useless primitive entity". Lesser races are like bacteria for them, but benefitial and intelligent bacteria. A tool, which can be used, but also must be respected. That's why I see Leviathans as some kind of "Space Druids".

Modifié par Seival, 22 octobre 2012 - 11:26 .

[CroGamer002]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Here's the tricky thing about Aria: she may be responsible for a lot of death, but she also seems to be a stabilizing influence, and noticeably more moderate than the other criminal elements of the region. In short, if someone other than Aria was in charge, odds are high that there'd be even more death.

So kill the top criminal over and over again until proper civil authority spontaneously manifests itself. Simple.

Yeah, that won't work at all.


Only way to get proper civil authority to Omega is to conquer it through warfare or assist non-criminal residents to revolt against criminal organizations.

And by assisting I mean give them guns and organize them.

[HeadStrikeRxx]

Whole control is against everything Shepard fought for me personally, i still approached this ending open minded and tried to look through it. The question that always came up for me, even if Shepard adds goodwilled memories to the reaper conscience, will he keep using indoctrination?

[Hadeedak]

HeadStrikeRxx wrote...

Whole control is against everything Shepard fought for me personally, i still approached this ending open minded and tried to look through it. The question that always came up for me, even if Shepard adds goodwilled memories to the reaper conscience, will he keep using indoctrination?

Would your Shepard as a Catalyst, with what you take away from the ending, do that? Would he have his Reaperarmy hang out by people sending out indoctrination waves?

I mean, my imagination says that my Shepalyst promptly rebuilt and sent the Reapers into hiding, going near dormant and functioning primarily as an Archive for all information passing through and around in her. She's continuing the Reaper's manifest to preserve data in a less lethal form. And like ME2, what remains of the Reaper's forces are buying up genetic samples (once again, in the least murderous way possible). She's basically functioning as a memory of everything the galaxy and the species that lived in it have been,

[Ieldra]

HeadStrikeRxx wrote...
Whole control is against everything Shepard fought for me personally, i still approached this ending open minded and tried to look through it. The question that always came up for me, even if Shepard adds goodwilled memories to the reaper conscience, will he keep using indoctrination?

Regarding the kind of mind-destroying enslavement the Reapers have been using, I think the implied answer is an emphatic "no". However, I can see Control!Shepard using more subtle methods to achieve its goals, for instance memetic engineering in order to prevent people from researching certain technologies. The kind of intelligence he has become would certainly be able to influence how civilization develops without ever directly altering a single individual's thoughts.

[SeptimusMagistos]

Mesina2 wrote...

Yeah, that won't work at all.

Only way to get proper civil authority to Omega is to conquer it through warfare or assist non-criminal residents to revolt against criminal organizations.

And by assisting I mean give them guns and organize them.

Can't I just cut out the middle man and kill the criminal organizations?

To be specific, I was proposing a decapitating strike that would take out anyone who knew how to run large-scale operations. There would still be crime, but it wouldn't be organized crime since all the organizers would be either dead or too scared of death to step up.

Modifié par SeptimusMagistos, 29 octobre 2012 - 03:15 .

[CrutchCricket]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
To be specific, I was proposing a decapitating strike that would take out anyone who knew how to run large-scale operations. There would still be crime, but it wouldn't be organized crime since all the organizers would be either dead or too scared of death to step up.

There's a reason that doesn't work in real life...

[CroGamer002]

^Yeah.

You will only have a unorganized crime, so even more anarchy. For some time.

And have gang wars for control, so a lot of people would get killed in cross fire.

And in the end, criminals still rule over Omega. Since even if non-criminal residents do start to organize united revolt, they would be outgunned and out-experienced from the criminals.


They need outside support to have a chance to have a civil authority on Omega.

[mango smoothie]

Mesina2 wrote...

^Yeah.

You will only have a unorganized crime, so even more anarchy. For some time.

And have gang wars for control, so a lot of people would get killed in cross fire.

And in the end, criminals still rule over Omega. Since even if non-criminal residents do start to organize united revolt, they would be outgunned and out-experienced from the criminals.


They need outside support to have a chance to have a civil authority on Omega.

The best chance for Omega to be free of large organized crime would be to smuggle in supplies and people to help with military training for citizens and start a guerilla warfare against the crime lords, this would be the best chance. This would allow the the citizens of Omega to operate a war that would eventually have the Crime lords regretting even being at Omega in the first place and leave for better prospects. It also allows for the citizens of Omega to form their own government.

The problem with sending in a military force to clean up Omega would be that the crime lords could end up using guerilla tactics against the military force, leaving for a long strung out war. Even worse the normal residents of Omega could end up feeling they are under occupation and help the crime lords turning everybody against the military force.

[CroGamer002]

^True.

I did give either outright conquer option or help to organize and supply guerrilla forces option.

[Yate]

YEAH I hoped this thread existed. Control ALL the reapers!

[JasonShepard]

Just a note for any paragons who want good dialogue with the Illusive Man that doesn't have Shepard arguing that Control is too risky only minutes before he does it himself. If you do want to talk TIM to death and want to avoid this, pick blue, red, red, blue during the conversation (or maybe even red, red, red, blue).

At one point TIM seems to consider Shepard using Control, and later in the conversation Shep will challenge TIM along the lines of "If you can Control the Reapers, DO IT ALREADY!" Then Shepard convinces TIM that he's indoctrinated by pointing out that he's doing exactly what the Reapers want - you know this bit...

[SeptimusMagistos]

mango smoothie wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

^Yeah.

You will only have a unorganized crime, so even more anarchy. For some time.

And have gang wars for control, so a lot of people would get killed in cross fire.

And in the end, criminals still rule over Omega. Since even if non-criminal residents do start to organize united revolt, they would be outgunned and out-experienced from the criminals.


They need outside support to have a chance to have a civil authority on Omega.

The best chance for Omega to be free of large organized crime would be to smuggle in supplies and people to help with military training for citizens and start a guerilla warfare against the crime lords, this would be the best chance. This would allow the the citizens of Omega to operate a war that would eventually have the Crime lords regretting even being at Omega in the first place and leave for better prospects. It also allows for the citizens of Omega to form their own government.

The problem with sending in a military force to clean up Omega would be that the crime lords could end up using guerilla tactics against the military force, leaving for a long strung out war. Even worse the normal residents of Omega could end up feeling they are under occupation and help the crime lords turning everybody against the military force.

They failed at waging guerilla warfare against Shepard when he had a single human body. How would they succeed if he's got a galactic-scale fleet at his disposal?

Not that I'm against deputizing some locals to become the law enforcement and giving them weapons. I just think it should be less of a rebellion and more of a police action.

[CrutchCricket]

Criminal or not, Omega is for all intents and purposes a sovereign state (probably even more so once Aria regains control).

Now tell me again how going into a sovereign state because you disagree with their policies or backing anti-establishment factions works out well for all involved.

And this is just organic to organic of course. I don't agree that Commander has any business (or indeed interest) in interfering.

[mango smoothie]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

mango smoothie wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

^Yeah.

You will only have a unorganized crime, so even more anarchy. For some time.

And have gang wars for control, so a lot of people would get killed in cross fire.

And in the end, criminals still rule over Omega. Since even if non-criminal residents do start to organize united revolt, they would be outgunned and out-experienced from the criminals.


They need outside support to have a chance to have a civil authority on Omega.

The best chance for Omega to be free of large organized crime would be to smuggle in supplies and people to help with military training for citizens and start a guerilla warfare against the crime lords, this would be the best chance. This would allow the the citizens of Omega to operate a war that would eventually have the Crime lords regretting even being at Omega in the first place and leave for better prospects. It also allows for the citizens of Omega to form their own government.

The problem with sending in a military force to clean up Omega would be that the crime lords could end up using guerilla tactics against the military force, leaving for a long strung out war. Even worse the normal residents of Omega could end up feeling they are under occupation and help the crime lords turning everybody against the military force.

They failed at waging guerilla warfare against Shepard when he had a single human body. How would they succeed if he's got a galactic-scale fleet at his disposal?

Not that I'm against deputizing some locals to become the law enforcement and giving them weapons. I just think it should be less of a rebellion and more of a police action.

Why would you use guerilla warfare against a single person that makes zero sense. The idea of using guerilla tactics is when your outnumbered and outgunned. Also I'm not suggesting a rebellion; a rebellion's goal is to destroy the enemy completly. What I'm suggesting is a resistance where your goal is to tire out the enemy to the point that they give up and leave.

Modifié par mango smoothie, 29 octobre 2012 - 06:19 .

[AlviseVenice]

The extended cut controll is awesome !
i cried soooooo much with Shepard's words );
Thank you BW for giving us this beautiful saga !

[SeptimusMagistos]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Criminal or not, Omega is for all intents and purposes a sovereign state (probably even more so once Aria regains control).

Now tell me again how going into a sovereign state because you disagree with their policies or backing anti-establishment factions works out well for all involved.

And this is just organic to organic of course. I don't agree that Commander has any business (or indeed interest) in interfering.

It worked out when Shepard was a human. Why shouldn't it work out now?

[CrutchCricket]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...
It worked out when Shepard was a human. Why shouldn't it work out now?

What are you talking about?