4520 réponses à ce sujet

[Argolas]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

"Minds" are uploaded into the Reapers. Something is indeed there.

If so, then indoctrinated beyond hope. Why else would they joint those who made them suffer so much?

[JasonShepard]

Argolas wrote...

JasonShepard wrote...

If, as suggested in game, the minds of those cultures are somehow still inside the Reapers, then I would consider them alive. Maybe they've been indoctrinated to believe that being a Reaper is awesome-sauce and everyone should share it... but they're still there. And if possible, I'd do my level best to save them too.

What's inside the Reapers is not the people that once lived.



They're dead.

You never actually see the colonist/Kelly stop moving though, do you? Just a thought.

My hypothesis - and it is just a hypothesis - is that the Reapers preserve the nervous system, incorporating it into their own framework. Alternatively, the nanites could be 'analysing' their victims in a similar way to how the Control ending analyses Shepard, in order to preserve a copy of the consciousness even as the brain and body are destroyed. Either way, the people are arguably still alive. Versions of them are, at the very least.

EDIT:

Argolas wrote...

If so, then indoctrinated beyond hope.

Indoctrinated? Most certainly. Beyond hope? Unknown. It may be possible for Control-Shep to undo the indoctrination - after all, he/she is now in the position of the thing that indoctrinated them in the first place. So there could still be hope there.

Modifié par JasonShepard, 23 janvier 2013 - 01:08 .

[Logos77]

 He was also right that Shepard didn't have the foresight needed to achieve goals correctly.

Had TIM breached the darkness and was talking with Leviathan, you could bet that after he asked if Leviathan knew what the Crucible was, he would ask what the Catalyst was.  

[Argolas]

Logos77 wrote...

 He was also right that Shepard didn't have the foresight needed to achieve goals correctly.

Had TIM breached the darkness and was talking with Leviathan, you could bet that after he asked if Leviathan knew what the Crucible was, he would ask what the Catalyst was.  

I bet the Leviathans would crush The Indoctrinated Man on sight.

[JasonShepard]

Argolas wrote...

I bet the Leviathans would crush The Indoctrinated Man on sight.

Leviathan: You have come too far.
TIM: I had to find you. For the pursuit of human dominance in the galaxy, no sacrifice is too great.
Leviathan: ... *Crunch*

You know, that would have solved a lot  of problems...

Modifié par JasonShepard, 23 janvier 2013 - 03:18 .

[DRACO1130]

TIM was correct in concept but not Execution.
He came to believe that the Ends justified the means regardless of the cost.
What TIM wanted simply wasn't possible - the Mars Archives had been sealed away since they were first found - the 'powers that be' feared the knowledge rather than sought after it. TIM was correct, the reapers COULD be controlled but only via the construction of the Crucible and ONLY when it was linked into the catalyst.
TIM, indeed all of cerebrus could never have acheived either of those ends and thus he was forced to 'indoctrinate' himself in order to try and achieve control - his own fixation blinded him to the inherent risk.
He never could have controlled us because we already controlled him.

[Wayning_Star]

DRACO1130 wrote...

TIM was correct in concept but not Execution.
He came to believe that the Ends justified the means regardless of the cost.
What TIM wanted simply wasn't possible - the Mars Archives had been sealed away since they were first found - the 'powers that be' feared the knowledge rather than sought after it. TIM was correct, the reapers COULD be controlled but only via the construction of the Crucible and ONLY when it was linked into the catalyst.
TIM, indeed all of cerebrus could never have acheived either of those ends and thus he was forced to 'indoctrinate' himself in order to try and achieve control - his own fixation blinded him to the inherent risk.
He never could have controlled us because we already controlled him.

seems like TIM got so wrapped up in the reapers gig that he forgot who he was and made for indoctrination automatic.

He always came at me as self indoctrinated, the catalyst considered him as being on autopilot.

[Seival]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

The "forcing the Catalyst to think and act like Shepard would" is my question. Example: When EDI fought EVA for control of her mobile platform, EDI was the stronger and thus was able to dominate EVA. EVA didn't change EDI in the slightest. Back to point: The Catalyst states he is the collective intelligence of all Reapers, each of which have the brainpower millions of times stronger. How is one human mind capable of forcing a collectively powered entity to think ina new way, let alone that human's way?

Simple. This is not brain-vs-brain fighting. This is the Catalyst showing Shepard the valid options, and asking her which option to trigger.

In the end Catalyst is convinced that Cycled Harvests are obsolete, and it wants to apply one of the following solutions:
 - Change Reapers' hardware to update the Catalyst's personality (Blue Explosion).
 - Change the entire galaxy to update all organic and synthetic life forms (Green Explosion).
 - Start everything from scratch (Red Explosion).

The Catalyst knows Leviathans thoughts on the matter. It has its own thoughts on the matter, but it never asked for lesser beings' opinion. And Shepard was the first lesser being Catalyst finds trustworthy... and not only because Shepard is an anomaly required to trigger Synthesis successfuly.



In short: Shepard suggests solution. Catalyst applies the solution. Catalyst does all the job, Shepard can only choose. "Grabbing the rods", "jumping into the light", or "shooting the tube" are just symbolical representation of Shepard's choice.

Modifié par Seival, 23 janvier 2013 - 08:16 .

[3DandBeyond]

Oh great. So now Shepard created the choices. If so, at least one Shepard would have created a rational one. Please.

[Seival]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Oh great. So now Shepard created the choices. If so, at least one Shepard would have created a rational one. Please.

Situation made the choices possible.
Catalyst explains the choices, and asks Shepard's opinion.
Shepard suggests to apply one of the explained choices.
Catalyst applies suggested choice.

...I think this picture explains everything:

[Seival]

The point is that Catalyst can't apply new solution without Shepard's help, while Shepard can't apply new solution without Catalyst's help. So in the end Catalyst and Shepard cooperate for the greater good... Even through both don't really like the idea of that kind of cooperation.

Modifié par Seival, 23 janvier 2013 - 08:28 .

[Steelcan]

Seival wrote...

The point is that Catalyst can't apply new solution without Shepard's help, while Shepard can't apply new solution without Catalyst's help. So in the end Catalyst and Shepard cooperate for the greater good... Even through both don't really like the idea of that kind of cooperation.

"Now that we know it is possible, it is inevitable we will reach synthesis". 

Dont bother calling off the cycle in that case, you know letting us reach it on our own.

[fiendishchicken]

Lol at Seival's terrible argument.

[GethPrimeMKII]

No one man should have all that power.

[xAmilli0n]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

No one man should have all that power.

Which is exactly why I love Control.  Good person with bad, corrupting powers = lotsa conflict and potential drama.

[Seival]

Steelcan wrote...

Seival wrote...

The point is that Catalyst can't apply new solution without Shepard's help, while Shepard can't apply new solution without Catalyst's help. So in the end Catalyst and Shepard cooperate for the greater good... Even through both don't really like the idea of that kind of cooperation.

"Now that we know it is possible, it is inevitable we will reach synthesis". 

Dont bother calling off the cycle in that case, you know letting us reach it on our own.

Cycles and Synthesis are separate solutions. They are completely different.

Control itself is not just a solution. It's the possibility keep some of other solutions still possible. And this is both advantage and disadvantage.

[Seival]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

No one man should have all that power.

Catalyst is not "a man". It's an AI program. Power can't corrupt a program.

Shepard dies in Control ending. Dies to change the original Catalyst's way of thinking.

Catalyst remains, Shepard dies. Nothing that can be corrupted by power remains.

Modifié par Seival, 23 janvier 2013 - 09:33 .

[Steelcan]

Seival wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

No one man should have all that power.

Catalyst is not "a man". It's an AI program. Power can't corrupt a program.

Shepard dies in Control ending. Dies to change the original Catalyst way of thinking.

Catalyst remains, Shepard dies. Nothing that can be corrupted by power remains.

. It could easily be said that Shepard has entirely replaced the original Catalyst 

[GethPrimeMKII]

Seival wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

No one man should have all that power.

Catalyst is not "a man". It's an AI program. Power can't corrupt a program.

Shepard dies in Control ending. Dies to change the original Catalyst's way of thinking.

Catalyst remains, Shepard dies. Nothing that can be corrupted by power remains.

The geth heretics proved to be quite corruptible. Also why is necessary for Shepard to die to replace the Catalyst?

[Seival]

Steelcan wrote...

Seival wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

No one man should have all that power.

Catalyst is not "a man". It's an AI program. Power can't corrupt a program.

Shepard dies in Control ending. Dies to change the original Catalyst way of thinking.

Catalyst remains, Shepard dies. Nothing that can be corrupted by power remains.

. It could easily be said that Shepard has entirely replaced the original Catalyst 

In Control ending we see that Shepard was harvested. Harvested organic material can't replace synthetic hardware. Blue explosion only changed the collective mind of all Reapers. The change was made based on Shepard personality. I think this obvious even in pre-EC Control ending.

[Seival]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

Seival wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

No one man should have all that power.

Catalyst is not "a man". It's an AI program. Power can't corrupt a program.

Shepard dies in Control ending. Dies to change the original Catalyst's way of thinking.

Catalyst remains, Shepard dies. Nothing that can be corrupted by power remains.

The geth heretics proved to be quite corruptible. Also why is necessary for Shepard to die to replace the Catalyst?

Corruptible? They just followed their initial code. They were convinced, not corrupted.

Do you remember how the Catalyst gathers information about organic beings? By harvesting them. That's why Shepard's sacrifice needed for Control and Synthesis.

Modifié par Seival, 23 janvier 2013 - 09:46 .

[Steelcan]

"I don not look forward to being replaced by you"

[Seival]

Steelcan wrote...

"I don not look forward to being replaced by you"

Yes, the Catalyst doesn't like the idea of cooperating (just like Shepard), but it can place greater good above personal preferences (again, just like Shepard). That's why they both trust each other in the end.

[Steelcan]

Seival wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

"I don not look forward to being replaced by you"

Yes, the Catalyst doesn't like the idea of cooperating (just like Shepard), but it can place greater good above personal preferences (again, just like Shepard). That's why they both trust each other in the end.

BANG*  BANG* I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the BANG* sound of my BANG* distrust of the Catalyst *KABOOM!

[GethPrimeMKII]

Seival wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

Seival wrote...

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

No one man should have all that power.

Catalyst is not "a man". It's an AI program. Power can't corrupt a program.

Shepard dies in Control ending. Dies to change the original Catalyst's way of thinking.

Catalyst remains, Shepard dies. Nothing that can be corrupted by power remains.

The geth heretics proved to be quite corruptible. Also why is necessary for Shepard to die to replace the Catalyst?

Corruptible? They just followed their initial code. They were convinced, not corrupted.

Do you remember how the Catalyst gathers information about organic beings? By harvesting them. That's why Shepard's sacrifice needed for Control and Synthesis.

The fact that some of the geth can be convinced to follow Sovereign on its quest to destroy organic life prove that even AI can be corrupted. Sovereign even left the heretics everything they'd need to corrupt the true geth and convince them to follow the reapers. 

So what youre trying to say is Shepard allows himself to be harvested? Implications unpleasant....