4520 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

Seival do you have any concept of the value of an individual life?

[Obadiah]

Seival wrote...
...
Yes, we can say that life is the sum of all lives, but in this case we should keep in mind that galactic civilization is not a sum of all lives. To gain the sum of all lives we have to add all habitable environments and everything that lives there, down to the bacteria, because organic life is impossible without everyhhing that forms habitable enviromnemt around it.

 - Can life exist without galactic civilization? Definitly yes.
 - Can life produce new galactic civilization as a replacement for the destroyed one? Definitely yes.
 - Can galactic civilization exist without the rest of life? Only synthetics can.

Preserving life by destroying lives makes sence. This is what nature does. Pepope can't live forever without changing the nature itself. Nature already commited the genocide of millions of living beings, jut to preserve the life. Cycled Harvests are valid solution even if you don't like it. And after Control ending new Catalyst may consider restarting the Cycles (if it will find them more effective than Synthesis or any other solution).

Life is worth preserving, but I also believe that life should be allowed to end - perhaps even completely as the Catalyst predicts, with our creations completely wiping out all Organic life. I don't see the worth in preserving it just for preservation's sake.

"A king has his reign, and then he dies. It's inevitable."

The way I see it:
- We thought we were free
- Discovered we were in some kind of zoo preserve
- When the caretakers arrived to prune us, we took over the zoo

Modifié par Obadiah, 25 janvier 2013 - 12:39 .

[CrutchCricket]

Yep. Confirmed. Seival hasn't gone of the deep end, s/he's freakin exploring the Mariana trench.

Nothing to see here. Move along.

[Seival]

Steelcan wrote...

Seival do you have any concept of the value of an individual life?

Like I said, my vision of the future after Control is inevitable Synthesis. I don't like the other variants, but that doesn't mean I don't understand them. You don't have to like Cycled Harvests to understand them, and see them as valid solution.

[Steelcan]

Seival wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Seival do you have any concept of the value of an individual life?

Like I said, my vision of the future after Control is inevitable Synthesis. I don't like the other variants, but that doesn't mean I don't understand them. You don't have to like Cycled Harvests to understand them, and see them as valid solution.

. That's not what I asked

[GethPrimeMKII]

I didnt think anyone could be sold on the cycles being valid solutions.

[Steelcan]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

I didnt think anyone could be sold on the cycles being valid solutions.

. Seival isn't any normal person.

[Seival]

Steelcan wrote...

Seival wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Seival do you have any concept of the value of an individual life?

Like I said, my vision of the future after Control is inevitable Synthesis. I don't like the other variants, but that doesn't mean I don't understand them. You don't have to like Cycled Harvests to understand them, and see them as valid solution.

. That's not what I asked

No, but that's what you were planning to ask after that, so I just save both yours and mine time

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

I didnt think anyone could be sold on the cycles being valid solutions.

If you don't like the solution, it doesn't mean it's invalid.

Did Leviathans like what their own creation do to them? No... Do they still believe the Catalyst applied valid solution? Yes, even through they consider the Reapers as the enemy. "There was no mistake. It still serves its purpose".

Judging Cycled Harvests is like judging natural cycle of life and death.



...Well, and noone forces you to restart Cycles after Control. You have the other ways. The choice is yours.

Modifié par Seival, 25 janvier 2013 - 08:52 .

[clennon8]

There are no invalid solutions if you open your mind up so far that your brains fall out. Making milkshakes out of people is a valid solution. Replacing everyone's head with a robot head is a valid solution. Compressing all of existence into a single point and creating a new Big Bang is a valid solution. See? You just have to expand your horizons, like Seival.

[Argolas]

Seival wrote...

Yes, we can say that life is the sum of all lives, but in this case we should keep in mind that galactic civilization is not a sum of all lives. To gain the sum of all lives we have to add all habitable environments and everything that lives there, down to the bacteria, because organic life is impossible without everyhhing that forms habitable enviromnemt around it.

 - Can life exist without galactic civilization? Definitly yes.
 - Can life produce new galactic civilization as a replacement for the destroyed one? Definitely yes.
 - Can galactic civilization exist without the rest of life? Only synthetics can.

Preserving life by destroying lives makes sence. This is what nature does. Pepope can't live forever without changing the nature itself. Nature already commited the genocide of millions of living beings, jut to preserve the life. Cycled Harvests are valid solution even if you don't like it. And after Control ending new Catalyst may consider restarting the Cycles (if it will find them more effective than Synthesis or any other solution).

You are trying to justify something that can't be justified. This is genocide. G-E-N-O-C-I-D-E. Just because some species go extinct because they fail to adapt, this is NEVER a justification for deliberate genocide. With that sort of argument, you could justify anything.

Tell me, what did the intelligence solve by killing the Protheans after their reaper failed? What did it achieve by leaving helpless Indoctrinated to starve to death? What life was preserved by killing all of them, not just scientists, but workers, soldieres, farmers?

This is MADNESS.

Modifié par Argolas, 25 janvier 2013 - 09:06 .

[Seival]

Argolas wrote...

Seival wrote...

Yes, we can say that life is the sum of all lives, but in this case we should keep in mind that galactic civilization is not a sum of all lives. To gain the sum of all lives we have to add all habitable environments and everything that lives there, down to the bacteria, because organic life is impossible without everyhhing that forms habitable enviromnemt around it.

 - Can life exist without galactic civilization? Definitly yes.
 - Can life produce new galactic civilization as a replacement for the destroyed one? Definitely yes.
 - Can galactic civilization exist without the rest of life? Only synthetics can.

Preserving life by destroying lives makes sence. This is what nature does. Pepope can't live forever without changing the nature itself. Nature already commited the genocide of millions of living beings, jut to preserve the life. Cycled Harvests are valid solution even if you don't like it. And after Control ending new Catalyst may consider restarting the Cycles (if it will find them more effective than Synthesis or any other solution).

You are trying to justify something that can't be justified. This is genocide. G-E-N-O-C-I-D-E. Just because some species go extinct because they fail to adapt, this is NEVER a justification for deliberate genocide. With that sort of argument, you could justify anything.

Tell me, what did the intelligence solve by killing the Protheans after their reaper failed? What did it achieve by leaving helpless Indoctrinated to starve to death? What life was preserved by killing all of them, not just scientists, but workers, soldieres, farmers?

This is MADNESS.

By your logic we can accuse the nature itself in commiting the genocide.

What did they achieve? Current galactic civilization, for example. New lives grown on the dust of those who came before. The galaxy was renewed. Organic-vs-synthetic problem didn't become too deadly in previous cycle. The life was preserved once again. And this is not madness at all.

...And you are wrong about Prothean Reaper(s). Game just doesn't concentrate on it.

Modifié par Seival, 25 janvier 2013 - 09:28 .

[Steelcan]

This is insanity.

[Seival]

Steelcan wrote...

This is insanity.

You don't have to restart the Cycles after Control. The Cycled Harvests solution is understandable, but not the only one.

[Steelcan]

Seival wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

This is insanity.

You don't have to restart the Cycles after Control. The Cycled Harvests solution is understandable, but not the only one.

. It isn't a solution, it's a delaying tactic.  Wipe out the organics before this problem arises.  A solution is solving the problem of organic/synthetic conflict.  A problem that I don't believe exists.

[Seival]

Steelcan wrote...

Seival wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

This is insanity.

You don't have to restart the Cycles after Control. The Cycled Harvests solution is understandable, but not the only one.

. It isn't a solution, it's a delaying tactic.  Wipe out the organics before this problem arises.  A solution is solving the problem of organic/synthetic conflict.  A problem that I don't believe exists.

Believe me, Reapers can do that "delay" forever.

Using the Reapers as a police force is also "delay", but less horrible and less effective I believe. That's one of the reasons why I choose the path of Controlled Synthesis.

Modifié par Seival, 25 janvier 2013 - 09:43 .

[Steelcan]

Screw synthesis. We don't need it. It's the judgment of an AI that organics need to change, no thanks.

Modifié par Steelcan, 25 janvier 2013 - 09:42 .

[Argolas]

Seival wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Seival wrote...

Yes, we can say that life is the sum of all lives, but in this case we should keep in mind that galactic civilization is not a sum of all lives. To gain the sum of all lives we have to add all habitable environments and everything that lives there, down to the bacteria, because organic life is impossible without everyhhing that forms habitable enviromnemt around it.

 - Can life exist without galactic civilization? Definitly yes.
 - Can life produce new galactic civilization as a replacement for the destroyed one? Definitely yes.
 - Can galactic civilization exist without the rest of life? Only synthetics can.

Preserving life by destroying lives makes sence. This is what nature does. Pepope can't live forever without changing the nature itself. Nature already commited the genocide of millions of living beings, jut to preserve the life. Cycled Harvests are valid solution even if you don't like it. And after Control ending new Catalyst may consider restarting the Cycles (if it will find them more effective than Synthesis or any other solution).

You are trying to justify something that can't be justified. This is genocide. G-E-N-O-C-I-D-E. Just because some species go extinct because they fail to adapt, this is NEVER a justification for deliberate genocide. With that sort of argument, you could justify anything.

Tell me, what did the intelligence solve by killing the Protheans after their reaper failed? What did it achieve by leaving helpless Indoctrinated to starve to death? What life was preserved by killing all of them, not just scientists, but workers, soldieres, farmers?

This is MADNESS.

By your logic we can accuse the nature itself in commiting the genocide.

What did they achieve? Current galactic civilization, for example. New lives grown on the dust of those who came before. The galaxy was renewed. Organic-vs-synthetic problem didn't become too deadly in previous cycle. The life was preserved once again. And this is not madness at all.

...And you are wrong about Prothean Reaper(s). Game just doesn't concentrate on it.

Sure, accuse nature if you feel like it. That's not more crazy than the cycle.

Does the fact that nature kills off every human eventually permit me to commit murder?

[Seival]

Argolas wrote...

Seival wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Seival wrote...

Yes, we can say that life is the sum of all lives, but in this case we should keep in mind that galactic civilization is not a sum of all lives. To gain the sum of all lives we have to add all habitable environments and everything that lives there, down to the bacteria, because organic life is impossible without everyhhing that forms habitable enviromnemt around it.

 - Can life exist without galactic civilization? Definitly yes.
 - Can life produce new galactic civilization as a replacement for the destroyed one? Definitely yes.
 - Can galactic civilization exist without the rest of life? Only synthetics can.

Preserving life by destroying lives makes sence. This is what nature does. Pepope can't live forever without changing the nature itself. Nature already commited the genocide of millions of living beings, jut to preserve the life. Cycled Harvests are valid solution even if you don't like it. And after Control ending new Catalyst may consider restarting the Cycles (if it will find them more effective than Synthesis or any other solution).

You are trying to justify something that can't be justified. This is genocide. G-E-N-O-C-I-D-E. Just because some species go extinct because they fail to adapt, this is NEVER a justification for deliberate genocide. With that sort of argument, you could justify anything.

Tell me, what did the intelligence solve by killing the Protheans after their reaper failed? What did it achieve by leaving helpless Indoctrinated to starve to death? What life was preserved by killing all of them, not just scientists, but workers, soldieres, farmers?

This is MADNESS.

By your logic we can accuse the nature itself in commiting the genocide.

What did they achieve? Current galactic civilization, for example. New lives grown on the dust of those who came before. The galaxy was renewed. Organic-vs-synthetic problem didn't become too deadly in previous cycle. The life was preserved once again. And this is not madness at all.

...And you are wrong about Prothean Reaper(s). Game just doesn't concentrate on it.

Sure, accuse nature if you feel like it. That's not more crazy than the cycle.

Does the fact that nature kills off every human eventually permit me to commit murder?

Facts do not permit you anything. Society rules and your personal code do.

[cyrexwingblade]

The Seival bashing is rather pointless, folks. The very definition of shooting the messenger. Seival makes valid points. There is a perspective from which the Reaper Cycle makes sense. I don't agree with it. I never would agree with it, and I find it morally reprehensible, but it exists. It's a 'thing'.

Mocking Seival just because of the points made is simply immaturity, and only bolster the points themselves. If you're not going to try to understand anyone else, you're always going to pick Destroy anyway...

[Argolas]

Seival wrote...

Facts do not permit you anything. Society rules and your personal code do.

And in the Catalyst's case, that is worth supporting?

[Seival]

Argolas wrote...

Seival wrote...

Facts do not permit you anything. Society rules and your personal code do.

And in the Catalyst's case, that is worth supporting?

In my opinion Cycled Harvests are not worth supporting, but worth understanding.

The Catalyst is bound only by its personal code. After Control ending Shepard's personality will keep affecting the fate of the entire galaxy constantly. So, all subsequent solutions are literally depend on your Shepard, not someone else. This is worth supporting, and this is not possible in any other ending.

Modifié par Seival, 26 janvier 2013 - 12:08 .

[EpicBoot2daFace]

The reapers rebuilding the relays was such an epic scene.

[Red Panda]

Maybe we're all looking at this from the wrong point of view. We need a more logical instead of emotional (see "transhumanism is bad"). I mean Seival has a point. There is a massive series of problems that need to be addressed and the crucible allows the start of a beginning to solve these issues.

[Argolas]

Seival wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Seival wrote...

Facts do not permit you anything. Society rules and your personal code do.

And in the Catalyst's case, that is worth supporting?

In my opinion Cycled Harvests are not worth supporting, but worth understanding.

The Catalyst is bound only by its personal code. After Control ending Shepard's personality will keep affecting the fate of the entire galaxy constantly. So, all subsequent solutions are literally depend on your Shepard, not someone else. This is worth supporting, and this is not possible in any other ending.

Okay, that's fine I guess.

Although I still don't see any problem solved. In Control, the war ends, but that's basically the only change, and it is unclear what Shepard AI will do with them. Synthesis changes the current life, but new organics and new synthetics will rise.

[Alien Number Six]

Control is the best ending if you want the humans to come out on top after the war. Especialy if you cured the Krogen and saved the Geth. As Javik said "The Geth may want the Reapers out of the way so they can take over the galaxy after they are gone" With the Alliance fleet smashed how could we repel a Geth attack? The Krogen will out breed us in a few months after the war. With human numbers down after a full scale Reaper attack we wouldn't be able to hold them back if they decide to take our space. TIM knew Control was a option once he was indoctrinated. But TIM also knew he could not control the Reapers in his state. That is why he is constantly trying to change Shepard's mind during the game. TIM feels that controlling the Reapers is not only the best way to insure human dominance but also protect us from our "allies". A group of aliens who in the first Mass Effect treated the humans like dirt. The Council refused to help the humans when their colonies where under attack by the Collectors. A great big Reaper army is very useful for repelling foolish alien invaders.