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[Seival]

Argolas wrote...

Seival wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Seival wrote...

What is the difference between Renegade Shepard, TIM, and Saren?

*Picture 1*
*Picture 2*

Yes, thanks for the reminder. The main difference is that TIM and Saren have failed, while Renegade Shepard did not.

Shepard never attempted any similar goal than TIM or Saren.

EDIT: Yes, granted, Shepard did right after the conversation with the intelligence if you choose to. But never before.

For some Renegade Shepards Control is also the right choice. The ending even has a branch for Renegades (unlike other endings). But what will the Catalyst based on such Shepard will do in the future? TIM and Saren would be angels compared to that kind of the Catalyst...

...That's why I prefer Paragon Control ending.

[The Night Mammoth]

OperatingWookie wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Seival wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Seival wrote...

What is the difference between Renegade Shepard, TIM, and Saren?

*Picture 1*
*Picture 2*

Yes, thanks for the reminder. The main difference is that TIM and Saren have failed, while Renegade Shepard did not.

Are you implying that it's a good thing? 

Yes, because the galaxy has shown that it is incapable of saving itself.

So an overlord with absolute power over everyone and no one to answer to has to step in? 

The only way to argue this is by metagaming, and by metagaming, I can safely say there's three other solutions to stop the cycle. 

[Argolas]

Seival wrote...

For some Renegade Shepards Control is also the right choice. The ending even has a branch for Renegades (unlike other endings). But what will the Catalyst based on such Shepard will do in the future? TIM and Saren would be angels compared to that kind of the Catalyst...

...That's why I prefer Paragon Control ending.

What's Renegade in dying and losing everything you have, including the connection to your kind?

[Seival]

Argolas wrote...

Seival wrote...

For some Renegade Shepards Control is also the right choice. The ending even has a branch for Renegades (unlike other endings). But what will the Catalyst based on such Shepard will do in the future? TIM and Saren would be angels compared to that kind of the Catalyst...

...That's why I prefer Paragon Control ending.

What's Renegade in dying and losing everything you have, including the connection to your kind?

I suggest you to watch all base variants of Control ending on youtube. There are 6 of them as far as I remember.

[Steelcan]

I thought there were two?

[Argolas]

Seival wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Seival wrote...

For some Renegade Shepards Control is also the right choice. The ending even has a branch for Renegades (unlike other endings). But what will the Catalyst based on such Shepard will do in the future? TIM and Saren would be angels compared to that kind of the Catalyst...

...That's why I prefer Paragon Control ending.

What's Renegade in dying and losing everything you have, including the connection to your kind?

I suggest you to watch all base variants of Control ending on youtube. There are 6 of them as far as I remember.

I'm talking about the decision, not the results. At that point, Shepard is already beyond the point of no return. I asked why a renegade would want that in the first place.

Yes, power is desireable, but what does power help you when you are dead and lost everything you have, including the connection to your kind? How is power over something you are completely isolated to desireable?

[Seival]

Argolas wrote...

Seival wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Seival wrote...

For some Renegade Shepards Control is also the right choice. The ending even has a branch for Renegades (unlike other endings). But what will the Catalyst based on such Shepard will do in the future? TIM and Saren would be angels compared to that kind of the Catalyst...

...That's why I prefer Paragon Control ending.

What's Renegade in dying and losing everything you have, including the connection to your kind?

I suggest you to watch all base variants of Control ending on youtube. There are 6 of them as far as I remember.

I'm talking about the decision, not the results. At that point, Shepard is already beyond the point of no return. I asked why a renegade would want that in the first place.

Yes, power is desireable, but what does power help you when you are dead and lost everything you have, including the connection to your kind? How is power over something you are completely isolated to desireable?

I think Renegade Control epilogues will answer that question better than me.

Watch all variants of Control ending, and compare them to each other. Then you will get the answer, given by the game itself.

Modifié par Seival, 30 janvier 2013 - 11:27 .

[Argolas]

Seival wrote...

I think Renegade Control epilogues will answer that question better than me.

Watch all variants of Control edning, and compare them to each other. Then you will get the answer, given by the game itself.

That is not Shepard. At no point it is even suggested that this is Shepard. The old intelligence says outright that Shepard will die in Control. The Shepard AI talks about Shepard, but does not say "me", instead "the (wo)man I once was". Shepard's thoughts continue, but they are not Shepard's anymore: "his/her thoughts" instead of "my thoughts". Shepard lost everything, his/her life as well as thoughts and memories, although the latter don't vanish but are uploaded into the new construct's mind.

[3DandBeyond]

Argolas wrote...

I'm talking about the decision, not the results. At that point, Shepard is already beyond the point of no return. I asked why a renegade would want that in the first place.

Yes, power is desireable, but what does power help you when you are dead and lost everything you have, including the connection to your kind? How is power over something you are completely isolated to desireable?

Agreed.  No Shepard would pick it.  A renegade wouldn't for some selfish reasons.  First of all, s/he's dead.  A renegade would want to bask in the power and "share" it with someone, but a dead Shepard can't.  People don't just want power without someone knowing they wield it.  And someone who's totally ruthless would want people to know just who is in control-and would still like to play video games and have physical relationships, among other things.

[Seival]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Argolas wrote...

I'm talking about the decision, not the results. At that point, Shepard is already beyond the point of no return. I asked why a renegade would want that in the first place.

Yes, power is desireable, but what does power help you when you are dead and lost everything you have, including the connection to your kind? How is power over something you are completely isolated to desireable?

Agreed.  No Shepard would pick it.  A renegade wouldn't for some selfish reasons.  First of all, s/he's dead.  A renegade would want to bask in the power and "share" it with someone, but a dead Shepard can't.  People don't just want power without someone knowing they wield it.  And someone who's totally ruthless would want people to know just who is in control-and would still like to play video games and have physical relationships, among other things.

A lot of Control ending fans and each variant of Control ending disagree with you.

Renegade is not a selfish power-hungry freak. Ask TIM and Saren.

Modifié par Seival, 30 janvier 2013 - 11:40 .

[Argolas]

Seival wrote...

A lot of Control ending fans and each variant of Control ending disagree with you.

Renegade is not a selfish power-hungry freak. Ask TIM and Saren.

They are. TIM would never share his power over Cerberus with anyone and does not hesitate to eliminate anyone who endangers his power, including imprtant humans like Admiral Kahoku. And Saren wanted to save his own butt first. Their "noble" goals are results of indoctrination which makes anyone an ideologist.

[outlaw1109]

Saren was hoping he could prove that organics could be useful, not necessarily just him. If he was in it to save his own hide then...killing himself seems a little counter-productive...


TIM, on other hand, was a little more complex.  At no point did he suggest placating the reapers.   He was power hungry, but not in the traditional way.  He wanted power for himself, but for humanity's benefit.  A different perspective could be that Shepard shares at least one similarity regardless of paragon/renegade.

They both think they have all the answers.  Hear me out.  Shepard is always convinced that his/her way is the only way to go.  Doesn't make him/her paragon/renegade.  Same as TIM.  He sees his way as the only way to achieve his ultimate goal:  the preservation and advancement of the human race.

For example:  Shepard is always accusing people of being indoctrinated, but Shepard is a likely candidate for the same reasons he/she blames other people.  (Ik he/she's not...) Why does he get to say that the Illusive man is wrong?  (from a in-character perspective, without knowledge of how the game ends) How can he know that the Reapers have indoctrinated him into believing he can destroy them and force Shepard to sacrifice most of the galactic militaries on a suicide mission?  Harvesting would be easier afterward...

The point is that TIM, while technically power-hungry, still carries some nobility in his actions.  Remember that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

Modifié par outlaw1109, 31 janvier 2013 - 12:17 .

[Argolas]

outlaw1109 wrote...

Saren was hoping he could prove that organics could be useful, not necessarily just him. If he was in it to save his own hide then...killing himself seems a little counter-productive...

Saren himself believed the Reapers could be stopped, this is revealed when you convince him to commit suicide. At the point where he thought that submitting to the Reapers is better than resisting them, he was already indoctrinated.

[outlaw1109]

Ik this, your argument was that he was power-hungry. His intentions were not to "save his own butt first" as you put it. He was trying to prove organics could be useful. Not arguing the point at which he was indoctrinated.

[Argolas]

outlaw1109 wrote...

Ik this, your argument was that he was power-hungry. His intentions were not to "save his own butt first" as you put it. He was trying to prove organics could be useful. Not arguing the point at which he was indoctrinated.

That's the subtle process of Indoctrination, but I'll leave it at that. I guess Indoctrination is generally not welcome as a topic in the Control support thread.

I'm out of here for today, good night.

[BatmanTurian]

this thread should be put in a usergroup since it's a small number of people discussing one thing and discouraging discussion, at least by Chris' definition.

[DarkSeraphym]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Agreed.  No Shepard would pick it.  A renegade wouldn't for some selfish reasons.  First of all, s/he's dead.  A renegade would want to bask in the power and "share" it with someone, but a dead Shepard can't.  People don't just want power without someone knowing they wield it.  And someone who's totally ruthless would want people to know just who is in control-and would still like to play video games and have physical relationships, among other things.

I'm a little confused by your post. Are you suggesting that Renegades are not willing to die if that is what it takes for the cause? I'm not seeing any precedent among the choices to suggest that is the case. ReneShep spends much of the dialogue saying that, as soldiers, death was always a possibility that had to be accepted. This much is presented in the Ruthless background choice. It isn't as if Shepard sat on the side lines while his crew perished at Torfan. He was there fighting too. Nor is it as if Shepard turned down the Suicide Mission because he knew he might die. I see absolutely no basis for that. Regardless of whether you are Renegade or Paragon, Shepard has always put his life on the line.

Second, where is this basis for the idea of ReneShep seizing power and showing it off? Likewise, where is the precedent for the idea that he/she needs someone to share it with? I honestly cannot think of a single, major choice that could benefit Shepard personally. You could argue that the ending decision of ME was like that for Renegade as it was supposed to make humanity top dog, but it isn't as if Shepard nominates himself to lead. I'm not seeing the basis for this either.

Personally, I believe that the Control ending can be entirely in line with Renegade values. Assuming you chose Renegade lines the entire time, Shepard distances himself from most of the crew throughout the course of ME3. One piece of dialogue that I can recall is when talking to Javik about what motivates him, in which ReneShep replies that it certainly isn't his friends, as they could die at any point. I strongly challenge the assertion that the Renegade necessarily feels stronger attachments than the Paragon if that is what you are suggesting, so I don't see why that should be a point against Control, especially when the Renegade keeps pushing everyone away. Furthermore, throughout the series, I'd argue that Renegade has come to embody the idea that "the ends justify the means." Renegades might destroy all synthetics and say that EDI and Geth were merely part of the "ruthless calculus of war", but Renegades might also decide that the Reapers are simply necessary in light of new information. After all, that is precisely what happens when ReneShep decides to keep the Collector Base instead of destroying it.

If none of that is what you were insenuating, then I apologize ahead of time.

Modifié par DarkSeraphym, 31 janvier 2013 - 12:42 .

[outlaw1109]

Argolas wrote...

outlaw1109 wrote...

Ik this, your argument was that he was power-hungry. His intentions were not to "save his own butt first" as you put it. He was trying to prove organics could be useful. Not arguing the point at which he was indoctrinated.

That's the subtle process of Indoctrination, but I'll leave it at that. I guess Indoctrination is generally not welcome as a topic in the Control support thread.

I'm out of here for today, good night.

So you're saying Indoctrination is making him power-hungry? 

Otherwise, it is irrelevant to our conversation because you said he was trying to save himself.  I didn't say anything about it, I was merely saying that "power-hungry" wasn't Saren.  You brought, unless the above question returns true, it into the conversation as a means to divert from the original topic I commented on.

In the event that your argument is that indoctrination makes people power hungry, I say play the Arrival DLC in ME2.  Or listen to Benezia.  Neither Kennison or her seem to want power from the Reapers.

I'm a little confused about how I've made indoctrination unwelcome, it just wasn't (from my understanding) pertinent to the conversation.

[3DandBeyond]

DarkSeraphym wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Agreed.  No Shepard would pick it.  A renegade wouldn't for some selfish reasons.  First of all, s/he's dead.  A renegade would want to bask in the power and "share" it with someone, but a dead Shepard can't.  People don't just want power without someone knowing they wield it.  And someone who's totally ruthless would want people to know just who is in control-and would still like to play video games and have physical relationships, among other things.

I'm a little confused by your post. Are you suggesting that Renegades are not willing to die if that is what it takes for the cause? I'm not seeing any precedent among the choices to suggest that is the case. ReneShep spends much of the dialogue saying that, as soldiers, death was always a possibility that had to be accepted. This much is presented in the Ruthless background choice. It isn't as if Shepard sat on the side lines while his crew perished at Torfan. He was there fighting too. Nor is it as if Shepard turned down the Suicide Mission because he knew he might die. I see absolutely no basis for that. Regardless of whether you are Renegade or Paragon, Shepard has always put his life on the line.

Second, where is this basis for the idea of ReneShep seizing power and showing it off? Likewise, where is the precedent for the idea that he/she needs someone to share it with? I honestly cannot think of a single, major choice that could benefit Shepard personally. You could argue that the ending decision of ME was like that for Renegade as it was supposed to make humanity top dog, but it isn't as if Shepard nominates himself to lead. I'm not seeing the basis for this either.

Personally, I believe that the Control ending can be entirely in line with Renegade values. Assuming you chose Renegade lines the entire time, Shepard distances himself from most of the crew throughout the course of ME3. One piece of dialogue that I can recall is when talking to Javik about what motivates him, in which ReneShep replies that it certainly isn't his friends, as they could die at any point. I strongly challenge the assertion that the Renegade necessarily feels stronger attachments than the Paragon if that is what you are suggesting, so I don't see why that should be a point against Control, especially when the Renegade keeps pushing everyone away. Furthermore, throughout the series, I'd argue that Renegade has come to embody the idea that "the ends justify the means." Renegades might destroy all synthetics and say that EDI and Geth were merely part of the "ruthless calculus of war", but Renegades might also decide that the Reapers are simply necessary in light of new information. After all, that is precisely what happens when ReneShep decides to keep the Collector Base instead of destroying it.

If none of that is what you were insenuating, then I apologize ahead of time.

Actually, I'm addressing part of what has been said here-that a renegade would want the power of control.  People compared him to TIM and so on and if you do so then a Renegade of that ilk would want not to so much share power but wield it with an audience.  Frankly, I don't see any of the choices fitting either renegade or paragon, except destroy could work for a certain renegade. 

I'm not saying a renegade feels stronger attachments, I'm saying a renegade would enjoy more selfish pursuits.  Part of what is appealing to people that take control of others or that have power, is the fact that they can lord over others-they control the people and those people know who controls them.  But they also enjoy the things they have in life such as drinking, games, sex, and so on.  A renegade would not be so quick to die and gain control that no one knows about.  You are confusing my word "share" with something more noble.  I don't think a renegade as portrayed is all about some noble idea; a renegade is about getting this all over with.  What I mean by sharing is wanting someone to know who is in charge and who is controlling things.  I see a renegade as rather reckless with others' lives, but not so with his/her own except as necessary.

The  problem with all the choices for a renegade is that a renegade is somewhat selfish and would be concerned with what happens to him/herself.  A paragon would not be so concerned with that, but would have problems making these choices based upon what they do to the galaxy.

[3DandBeyond]

Seival wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Argolas wrote...

I'm talking about the decision, not the results. At that point, Shepard is already beyond the point of no return. I asked why a renegade would want that in the first place.

Yes, power is desireable, but what does power help you when you are dead and lost everything you have, including the connection to your kind? How is power over something you are completely isolated to desireable?

Agreed.  No Shepard would pick it.  A renegade wouldn't for some selfish reasons.  First of all, s/he's dead.  A renegade would want to bask in the power and "share" it with someone, but a dead Shepard can't.  People don't just want power without someone knowing they wield it.  And someone who's totally ruthless would want people to know just who is in control-and would still like to play video games and have physical relationships, among other things.

A lot of Control ending fans and each variant of Control ending disagree with you.

Renegade is not a selfish power-hungry freak. Ask TIM and Saren.

What is it about indoctrination that you don't understand-oh and TIM was for control and turned into a power hungry freak.  Saren's story was about him being indoctrinated and the advocation for synthesis.  See the recurrent theme here-indoctrinated people.  A lot of control ending fans refuse to accept the reality that the vast majority of the galaxy would not be happy to have reapers as the galactic police when the reapers are made up of people goo and have people goo inside them.  The galaxy would be a very dark place indeed were anything like that to happen.  Denial is more than just a word.

[Some Gamer Guy]

In Mass Effect 2, any agreement with the Illusive Man is interpreted in the game as Renegade (keeping the Collector Base is a prime example).

For Control, we see TIM's image to the left (where the Paragon interrupts usually are) cast in blue, the Paragon color. We see the reverse of this with Anderson using the Destroy option.

The game was enforcing a mentality shift. The catalyst's dialogue was meant to reframe Shepard's beliefs about the situation. Using that logic, Control is in fact the game's Paragon choice. This doesn't necessarily mean it's an accurate label, especially since it was at the tail end of the game when both paths were well established as having certain characteristics.

But I believe Control is in fact the Paragon option. Here's why: Paragon Shepard was meticulous, and put forth the most effort in the trilogy for others' benefit (gassing the colonists on Feros as opposed to simply mowing them down). He/she was as well compassionate to a fault (in "Bring Down the Sky", Shepard lets Balak flee in order to save hostages).

A true Renegade Shepard was efficient, and almost always chose the path of least effort (looking for an excuse to shoot Wrex instead of being diplomatic in ME1, Zaeed's loyalty mission in ME2, letting Jona Sederis out of jail instead of finding a replacement in ME3, etc. etc. etc.)

A proactive personality is required to yield the intended results in the Control ending. Renegade Shepard had a destructive personality by nature.

Modifié par Some Gamer Guy, 31 janvier 2013 - 05:11 .

[Ageless Face]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Huh?  Actually, it's not so much that they enjoy it, it's that they have some things that prevent them from considering any other choice.  They've lived under certain conditions for so long that they can't envision any other way.  And the ruling class creates situations that make it hard for them to consider something else.  They set up situations to keep groups with centuries old grievances from getting along, or they convince people that if there was not one main ultimate authority then chaos would take hold because people can't be trusted to try and work together.

People that believe that a dictatorship is better often fear that people cannot handle responsibility or that they should not on an individual basis, and their rulers are all too happy to prove that's so.

No one person should ever be given the right to rule a whole galaxy.  I don't care if it's Shepard or Mother Theresa or Justin Bieber.  No one person should have full authority over everyone else.

And removing emotions also removes the conscience as well as it removes the intent to determine right from wrong-and the ability to do so.  Someone who cannot feel emotions is not the best to decide things because what you then have is a machine that lacks compassion for the fallibility of people.  We make mistakes but need to be allowed to learn from them.

You can say the same about democratics not knowing any other way except for democracy. The democratics never lived in a dictatorship, and all they have is the education system to tell them, and the internet. And most dont go researching there, they trust their schools with this info. And you'll never hear a teacher teaching the possible good things there are about dictatorship, only on how evil they are, and that everyone under dictatorship hate it and are miserable- which is true only to some. 

The reason people fear democracy is because they believe it's a mess, that there are riots in the streets and people having too much freedom for their own good. And of course, because democracy makes the country less united. 

And as I said before, it's not only people who live there that believe dictatorship is better. There are enough people in the democratic countries who believe that.

As for ruling the galaxy, I wont let anyone do it either. Thats why I dont headcanon it. My AIShep will rarely even stay on their terf. So Im sorry, but I dont understand the problem.

Removing your emotions doesnt mean you cant determind right from wrong. The geth didnt continue to slaughter Quarians after the morning war, even though it might have been safer for them. EDI knew her purpose is to protect Shepard and the crew, even if it meant her death. 

And AIShep has one thing they didnt- the memories and previous moralities of an organic. 

Modifié par HagarIshay, 31 janvier 2013 - 05:45 .

[Obadiah]

3DandBeyond wrote...
...
The  problem with all the choices for a renegade is that a renegade is somewhat selfish and would be concerned with what happens to him/herself.  A paragon would not be so concerned with that, but would have problems making these choices based upon what they do to the galaxy.

Renegade is willing to break the rules get the job done, and does not necessarily obey authority - that's it. It's similar to being ruthless. It doesn't describe good, bad, selfishness, or selflessness. Players may play the Renegade role while attributing whatever motivations they care to. Renegades can have any number of reasons to pick any ending; so can Paragon.

Modifié par Obadiah, 31 janvier 2013 - 05:25 .

[Davik Kang]

Obadiah wrote...
Renegade is willing to break the rules get the job done, and does not necessarily obey authority - that's it. It's similar to being ruthless. It doesn't describe good, bad, selfishness, or selflessness. Players may play the Renegade role while attributing whatever motivations they care to. Renegades can have any number of reasons to pick any ending; so can Paragon.

Yeah I agree with this.  I think the ME1 manual might have gone further and described a Paragon being someone who goes about things the 'right' way, but a better way to put it might be to say the 'idealistic' way.

Oh and btw I agree w the other guy that Control is the Paragon option, for the simple reason that it is the non-violent option.  I think analysis of thrist for power etc. is reading into it too much.  A "Renegade Shepard" might choose Control for the power, but that doesn't make the choice itself Renegade - the reasons why an individual might make a choice have to be divorced from the colour-coded choice itself.

As an example, when speaking to e.g. Liara, you can be nice to her or dismissive.  Being nice is Paragon, plain and simple.  Nonetheless if Shep goes with that choice because he wants to get laid, that'd be fairly obvious Renegade rationale, but that choice is still the Paragon choice.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 31 janvier 2013 - 05:27 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

Argolas wrote...

Seival wrote...

I think Renegade Control epilogues will answer that question better than me.

Watch all variants of Control edning, and compare them to each other. Then you will get the answer, given by the game itself.

That is not Shepard. At no point it is even suggested that this is Shepard. The old intelligence says outright that Shepard will die in Control. The Shepard AI talks about Shepard, but does not say "me", instead "the (wo)man I once was". Shepard's thoughts continue, but they are not Shepard's anymore: "his/her thoughts" instead of "my thoughts". Shepard lost everything, his/her life as well as thoughts and memories, although the latter don't vanish but are uploaded into the new construct's mind.

If you want to be picky about it, the AI does say the (wo)man "I" was.. Like I say the child I was 10 years ago, for example. So the construct admits he/she is no longer human/organic but the identification with Shepard is still there, and the connection continues. Maybe he sees it as we see different stages of growing up of an individual. I was a human Shepard back then, now I am the reaperqueen, for example.