4520 réponses à ce sujet

[Seival]

KwangtungTiger wrote...

Seival wrote...

HJF4 wrote...

It's Shepard in another shell.

You can say so.

Way of thinking and memories is what makes the person, not body.

 I find it hard to believe that someone like you ((who believes in Nihilism) a form of anarchy) truely likes,

Control: Basicly a form of a established goverment ( shepard controling the most advanced military in the galaxy reguardless of paragon/renagade intensions).

 Synthesis: Essentially a forced mutation on all civilizations.

 Instead of Destroy which keeps the galaxy in its chaotic ( anarchy like ) state.

  ni·hil·ism [nahy-uh-liz-uhm, nee-] Show IPA noun
1. total rejection of established laws and institutions.
2. anarchy, terrorism, or other revolutionary activity.
3. total and absolute destructiveness, especially toward the world at large and including oneself: the power-mad nihilism that marked Hitler's last years.
4. Philosophy . a. an extreme form of skepticism: the denial of all real existence or the possibility of an objective basis for truth. b. nothingness or nonexistence.
5. ( sometimes initial capital letter  ) the principles of a Russian revolutionary group, active in the latter half of the 19th century, holding that existing social and political institutions must be destroyed in order to clear the way for a new state of society and employing extreme measures, including terrorism and assassination.
6. annihilation of the self, or the individual consciousness, especially as an aspect of mystical experience.

As you can see, Control is my favorite ending.

As I can see, we learned different lessons from Nihilism

I suggest you to read Ethical Engineer by Harry Harrison. It might help you to see the Nihilism "through my eyes".

[KwangtungTiger]

Seival wrote...

KwangtungTiger wrote...

Seival wrote...

HJF4 wrote...

It's Shepard in another shell.

You can say so.

Way of thinking and memories is what makes the person, not body.

 I find it hard to believe that someone like you ((who believes in Nihilism) a form of anarchy) truely likes,

Control: Basicly a form of a established goverment ( shepard controling the most advanced military in the galaxy reguardless of paragon/renagade intensions).

 Synthesis: Essentially a forced mutation on all civilizations.

 Instead of Destroy which keeps the galaxy in its chaotic ( anarchy like ) state.

  ni·hil·ism [nahy-uh-liz-uhm, nee-] Show IPA noun
1. total rejection of established laws and institutions.
2. anarchy, terrorism, or other revolutionary activity.
3. total and absolute destructiveness, especially toward the world at large and including oneself: the power-mad nihilism that marked Hitler's last years.
4. Philosophy . a. an extreme form of skepticism: the denial of all real existence or the possibility of an objective basis for truth. b. nothingness or nonexistence.
5. ( sometimes initial capital letter  ) the principles of a Russian revolutionary group, active in the latter half of the 19th century, holding that existing social and political institutions must be destroyed in order to clear the way for a new state of society and employing extreme measures, including terrorism and assassination.
6. annihilation of the self, or the individual consciousness, especially as an aspect of mystical experience.

As you can see, Control is my favorite ending.

As I can see, we learned different lessons from Nihilism

I suggest you to read Ethical Engineer by Harry Harrison. It might help you to see the Nihilism "through my eyes".

 Reguardless of what a book tells you.

 The definition of the term is what it is. Your interpretation of it ( through somebody else's eye's no less )may be different but, the dfinition of said term is what it is.

 And as you have stated before I did read the over view of the entire deathworld series and Jason didn't impress me.

Modifié par KwangtungTiger, 10 mars 2013 - 07:44 .

[KwangtungTiger]

double

Modifié par KwangtungTiger, 10 mars 2013 - 07:43 .

[Seival]

KwangtungTiger wrote...

Seival wrote...

KwangtungTiger wrote...

Seival wrote...

HJF4 wrote...

It's Shepard in another shell.

You can say so.

Way of thinking and memories is what makes the person, not body.

 I find it hard to believe that someone like you ((who believes in Nihilism) a form of anarchy) truely likes,

Control: Basicly a form of a established goverment ( shepard controling the most advanced military in the galaxy reguardless of paragon/renagade intensions).

 Synthesis: Essentially a forced mutation on all civilizations.

 Instead of Destroy which keeps the galaxy in its chaotic ( anarchy like ) state.

  ni·hil·ism [nahy-uh-liz-uhm, nee-] Show IPA noun
1. total rejection of established laws and institutions.
2. anarchy, terrorism, or other revolutionary activity.
3. total and absolute destructiveness, especially toward the world at large and including oneself: the power-mad nihilism that marked Hitler's last years.
4. Philosophy . a. an extreme form of skepticism: the denial of all real existence or the possibility of an objective basis for truth. b. nothingness or nonexistence.
5. ( sometimes initial capital letter  ) the principles of a Russian revolutionary group, active in the latter half of the 19th century, holding that existing social and political institutions must be destroyed in order to clear the way for a new state of society and employing extreme measures, including terrorism and assassination.
6. annihilation of the self, or the individual consciousness, especially as an aspect of mystical experience.

As you can see, Control is my favorite ending.

As I can see, we learned different lessons from Nihilism

I suggest you to read Ethical Engineer by Harry Harrison. It might help you to see the Nihilism "through my eyes".

 Reguardless of what a book tells you.

 The definition of the term is what it is. Your interpretation of it ( through somebody else's eye's no less )may be different but, the dfinition of said term is what it is.

 And as you have stated before I did read the over view of the entire deathworld series and Jason didn't impress me.

Well, you can call me whatever you want, but the fact remains: I'm Control ending fan

Jason Dinalt didn't impress you? That's strange... Kasumi Goto reminds me Jason so much. I think that if he was a female, he and Kasumi would be exact copies of each other. Such a similar characters.

I think if Jason Dinalt would choose ME Trilogy ending, he would choose Control. Remember how did he resolved Pyrrus conflict? He convinced almost everyone to follow his own doctrines.

[Zagardal]

The control solution would make sense.... if it were the first solution the catalyst implemented. Policing the relationship between synthetics and organics makes much more sense than killing everybody so nobody kills each other.

[Seival]

Zagardal wrote...

The control solution would make sense.... if it were the first solution the catalyst implemented. Policing the relationship between synthetics and organics makes much more sense than killing everybody so nobody kills each other.

Well, at the point of making decision about the harvests the Catalyst only had an army of some harvesting devices, which helped it to gather information about organics (Leviathan told us about that). Those devices definitely could not be used as a police force.

Reaper ships plus Husks can perform police tasks quite well (for obvious reasons). But let's not forget that Reaper ships and Husks had to be created first.

Harvests worked fine for so many years, but the Catalyst wanted better solution. Solution which will not require eternal police force or cycled harvests. So, it invented Synthesis eventually.

...Why do I support Synthesis as well? Because I believe that Control helps to apply Synthesis in much more productive manner, and much later.

[BABEik52092]

TIM wanted to control Reapers to "secure human dominance" throughout the galaxy, and went about it through extreme means such as forcing implants into Cerberus soldiers and the work at Sanctuary.

A paragon Shepard would use control of the Reapers to rebuild the mass relay network as quickly as possible, to prevent the destruction of the EDI and Geth that the Destroy option apparently requires, to rebuild the damage caused by the war, to stop the harvesting cycle, to keep the Leviathans at bay, to get rid of the original Catalyst and to peacefully meditate the relationships between organics and sythentics. The relationship between Organics and Sythentics should be allowed to develop on their own terms, not be forced to "like each other" just because Shepard jumps in a beam of light.

Since the Reapers originally could talk to people, such as the Reaper talking to Shepard on Rannoch and the Catalyst talking to Shepard on the Citadel, a paragon Shepard would communicate with the leaders of the galaxy to see after all of the help rebuilding, what would they like to happen with the Reapers......Would they like for the Shepard AI to destroy the Reapers? Would they like the Reapers to stay around and protect the galaxy? Shepard can even tell them the idea of Sythensis and see if the galaxy is even interested in it. Who is to say another Crucible be built and reattached to the Citadel to offer the Sythensis option? It would be the galaxy's choice at that point, instead of Shepard himself forcing it upon the universe as the Sythensis ending originally is.

Control is the ultimate sacrifice. Sacrifice Shepard to make sure everything lives on their own terms.
Destroy is what I would like to happen, but I am not willing to sacrifice EDI and the Geth.
Sythensis is just plain wrong as a decision you make by yourself in a vaccuum

[cerberus1701]

Zagardal wrote...

The control solution would make sense.... if it were the first solution the catalyst implemented. Policing the relationship between synthetics and organics makes much more sense than killing everybody so nobody kills each other.

Oh, not killed...."saved."

[cerberus1701]

"Control is the ultimate sacrifice. Sacrifice Shepard to make sure everything lives on their own terms."

How does everything "live on its own terms" when an army of planet-shredding superships ready to strike is policing it?

It'd be like having a Judge Dredd with every, man, woman and child on Earth.

Could you really live life on your own terms with a guy empowered to kill you, (who has killed a whole bunch of other people before, btw) looking over your shoulder?

[BABEik52092]

cerberus1701 wrote...

"Control is the ultimate sacrifice. Sacrifice Shepard to make sure everything lives on their own terms."

How does everything "live on its own terms" when an army of planet-shredding superships ready to strike is policing it?

It'd be like having a Judge Dredd with every, man, woman and child on Earth.

Could you really live life on your own terms with a guy empowered to kill you, (who has killed a whole bunch of other people before, btw) looking over your shoulder?

The problem is you assume that just because the almighty "Reapers" are still around that they are ready to kill all Organics and Sythentics just because that was there previous purpose.

But the original Catalyst and his stupid "solution" are gone, and in its place is a paragon Shepard. My paragon Shepard AI isn't some dictator that is ready to commit genocide just when any degree of conflict arises.

And like I said in my original post, my Shepard AI is willing to communicate with the Council and see if they want me to turn off or destroy the Reapers. If thats the case, it would be at their own WILL and I would comply.

Everyone gets to choose their own future, as opposed to Destroy when EDI and the Geth have no say in their future and Sythensis when everyone is changed without ANYONES says.

[cerberus1701]

BABEik52092 wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

"Control is the ultimate sacrifice. Sacrifice Shepard to make sure everything lives on their own terms."

How does everything "live on its own terms" when an army of planet-shredding superships ready to strike is policing it?

It'd be like having a Judge Dredd with every, man, woman and child on Earth.

Could you really live life on your own terms with a guy empowered to kill you, (who has killed a whole bunch of other people before, btw) looking over your shoulder?

The problem is you assume that just because the almighty "Reapers" are still around that they are ready to kill all Organics and Sythentics just because that was there previous purpose.

But the original Catalyst and his stupid "solution" are gone, and in its place is a paragon Shepard. My paragon Shepard AI isn't some dictator that is ready to commit genocide just when any degree of conflict arises.

And like I said in my original post, my Shepard AI is willing to communicate with the Council and see if they want me to turn off or destroy the Reapers. If thats the case, it would be at their own WILL and I would comply.

Everyone gets to choose their own future, as opposed to Destroy when EDI and the Geth have no say in their future and Sythensis when everyone is changed without ANYONES says.

It doesn't matter.

Do you think that the trillions of people in the galaxy still left alive, but not a one who hasn't lost something because of those things would just happily accept them? Think they would buy this notion of a benign overseer? 

They'd rebel.

So Shep would have to  destroy himself or (more likely) put down the rebellion.

And even if not, the simple passage of time will detach him from the galaxy. Sooner or later, he just becomes the Shepalyst.

Now, if you want to headcannon that Shep Controls, then just destroys them, fine. makes sense enough. But Shep will not stay a "Paragon" throughout eternity...not if he stays "human" after the transfer.

Further, EDI and the Geth did have a say. They joined his fight knowing they may not survive.

Modifié par cerberus1701, 14 mars 2013 - 09:35 .

[BABEik52092]

cerberus1701 wrote...

BABEik52092 wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

"Control is the ultimate sacrifice. Sacrifice Shepard to make sure everything lives on their own terms."

How does everything "live on its own terms" when an army of planet-shredding superships ready to strike is policing it?

It'd be like having a Judge Dredd with every, man, woman and child on Earth.

Could you really live life on your own terms with a guy empowered to kill you, (who has killed a whole bunch of other people before, btw) looking over your shoulder?

The problem is you assume that just because the almighty "Reapers" are still around that they are ready to kill all Organics and Sythentics just because that was there previous purpose.

But the original Catalyst and his stupid "solution" are gone, and in its place is a paragon Shepard. My paragon Shepard AI isn't some dictator that is ready to commit genocide just when any degree of conflict arises.

And like I said in my original post, my Shepard AI is willing to communicate with the Council and see if they want me to turn off or destroy the Reapers. If thats the case, it would be at their own WILL and I would comply.

Everyone gets to choose their own future, as opposed to Destroy when EDI and the Geth have no say in their future and Sythensis when everyone is changed without ANYONES says.

It doesn't matter.

Do you think that the trillions of people in the galaxy still left alive, but not a one who hasn't lost something because of those things would just happily accept them? Think they would buy this notion of a benign overseer? 

They'd rebel.

So Shep would have to  destroy himself or (more likely) put down the rebellion.

And even if not, the simple passage of time will detach him from the galaxy. Sooner or later, he just becomes the Shepalyst.

Now, if you want to headcannon that Spep Controls, then just destroys them, fine. makes sense enough. But Shep will not stay a "Paragon" throughout eternity...not if he stays "human" after the transfer

Further, EDI and the Geth did have a say. They joined his fight knowing they may not survive.

The Reapers have been tools, nothing more. They have been pawns under the control of the Catalyst. To be mad at the tool is simply silly. The Catalyst is where the fault lies, as well as the Leviathans for creating such a flawed instrument to begin with. Do you be mad at the crowbar that killed your friend? Or at the person that was using the crowbar? My Shepard realized that the original Catalyst was insane and should not have control of such a deadly tool. So my paragon Shepard, who is much more responsible, decided to wield the tool instead.

You are also headcannoning that Shepard will not stay "Paragon" throughout eternity. You have no evidence that this will happen.

And like you said, if the galaxy doesn't want the benefits of the Reapers. Thats completely fine, I will destroy them no questions asked. But it would be blind to not see the benefits of controlling the Reapers for the short term, not only to prevent the destruction of EDI and the Geth.

And yes you are right, EDI and the Geth joined the war knowing very well they may not survive. But when I see that I have the chance to save them as well, why would you want to take away their future just for some blind need for destruction of the Reapers?

Modifié par BABEik52092, 14 mars 2013 - 09:48 .

[cerberus1701]

"To be mad at the tool is simply silly."

To be mad at the allegedly self-aware machine that perpetrated the act is not silly.

I'm not mad at the gun. Unless you tell me that the gun could think about what it was aimed at.

If they were completely enslaved by the Catalyst, then we can add it to the list of things ..that it lies to Shepard about when he implies that he "saved" all that they were.

The thing is, you will never, ever convince the person who has a smoking crater where their family used to be that the Catalyst is nothing more than nonsense (the irony of that is not lost on me) They will not abide the existence of the death squid in the sky. You will never get them to accept its (even passive) control under a new, allegedly benign AI.

All they will ever see is what destroyed their lives, and not it's telling them how to behave, even just being there.

And I have plenty of evidence that Shepard will not stay Paragon because I have a basic understanding of Human nature. Power corrupts. It just does.

Further? Time creates distance by its very nature. As soon as he's up there. And Wrex dies. Liara dies. His last connections to what he was disappears, he starts seeing the rest as "less than him" because:

- In many ways the actually are.

- He has no more connection to them. A few thousand years and they are all a distant memory, even if he could remember perfectly.

Let's say John and Jane were married for 50 years and she died in 2013. A horrible psychological blow.

What if John were immortal? What if John was born in 2200 BCE. There were 1,000 Janes. There will be 1,000 more. Sure, it will hurt if he dwells on them, but why? There are children to raise and new friends to make and new Janes. There are always connections and...life.

Controller Shep, at some point will have no connections anymore. No Salarian friends, no Asari wife. Nothing. The only ones like him are the Reapers. The only ones he will be able to relate to are the Reapers. Eventually they will matter more. Because they are the only things he can connect to.

And when that happens? The galaxy is in for it.

This is a guarantee should Shepard stay Human. Because Humans are Human.

[Seival]

cerberus1701 wrote...

"To be mad at the tool is simply silly."

To be mad at the allegedly self-aware machine that perpetrated the act is not silly.

I'm not mad at the gun. Unless you tell me that the gun could think about what it was aimed at.

If they were completely enslaved by the Catalyst, then we can add it to the list of things ..that it lies to Shepard about when he implies that he "saved" all that they were.

The thing is, you will never, ever convince the person who has a smoking crater where their family used to be that the Catalyst is nothing more than nonsense (the irony of that is not lost on me) They will not abide the existence of the death squid in the sky. You will never get them to accept its (even passive) control under a new, allegedly benign AI.

All they will ever see is what destroyed their lives, and not it's telling them how to behave, even just being there.

And I have plenty of evidence that Shepard will not stay Paragon because I have a basic understanding of Human nature. Power corrupts. It just does.

Further? Time creates distance by its very nature. As soon as he's up there. And Wrex dies. Liara dies. His last connections to what he was disappears, he starts seeing the rest as "less than him" because:

- In many ways the actually are.

- He has no more connection to them. A few thousand years and they are all a distant memory, even if he could remember perfectly.

Let's say John and Jane were married for 50 years and she died in 2013. A horrible psychological blow.

What if John were immortal? What if John was born in 2200 BCE. There were 1,000 Janes. There will be 1,000 more. Sure, it will hurt if he dwells on them, but why? There are children to raise and new friends to make and new Janes. There are always connections and...life.

Controller Shep, at some point will have no connections anymore. No Salarian friends, no Asari wife. Nothing. The only ones like him are the Reapers. The only ones he will be able to relate to are the Reapers. Eventually they will matter more. Because they are the only things he can connect to.

And when that happens? The galaxy is in for it.

This is a guarantee should Shepard stay Human. Because Humans are Human.

"Power corrupts" argument again?

Well, then again the same answer:
(1) Power can't corrupt a computer.
(2) Absolute power comes with absolute responsibility.

Shepard dies in Control (allows the Catalyst to harvest her; this is not just my thoughts, we can see the process in the epilogue). Harvested Shepard's essence becomes a part of the Reapers, and changes the Catalyst, so it starts to think like Shepard, and gains all her memories... As well, as Liara's memories (if she is your LI, and you accepted her gift in the end), by the way.

There is no Shepard after Control. There is Shepard-Catalyst... Well, and little blue children, if Liara is your LI. That's quite probable, considering how many times they did it just before the ending

Modifié par Seival, 14 mars 2013 - 10:58 .

[BABEik52092]

cerberus1701 wrote...

"To be mad at the tool is simply silly."

To be mad at the allegedly self-aware machine that perpetrated the act is not silly.

I'm not mad at the gun. Unless you tell me that the gun could think about what it was aimed at.

If they were completely enslaved by the Catalyst, then we can add it to the list of things ..that it lies to Shepard about when he implies that he "saved" all that they were.

The thing is, you will never, ever convince the person who has a smoking crater where their family used to be that the Catalyst is nothing more than nonsense (the irony of that is not lost on me) They will not abide the existence of the death squid in the sky. You will never get them to accept its (even passive) control under a new, allegedly benign AI.

All they will ever see is what destroyed their lives, and not it's telling them how to behave, even just being there.

And I have plenty of evidence that Shepard will not stay Paragon because I have a basic understanding of Human nature. Power corrupts. It just does.

Further? Time creates distance by its very nature. As soon as he's up there. And Wrex dies. Liara dies. His last connections to what he was disappears, he starts seeing the rest as "less than him" because:

- In many ways the actually are.

- He has no more connection to them. A few thousand years and they are all a distant memory, even if he could remember perfectly.

Let's say John and Jane were married for 50 years and she died in 2013. A horrible psychological blow.

What if John were immortal? What if John was born in 2200 BCE. There were 1,000 Janes. There will be 1,000 more. Sure, it will hurt if he dwells on them, but why? There are children to raise and new friends to make and new Janes. There are always connections and...life.

Controller Shep, at some point will have no connections anymore. No Salarian friends, no Asari wife. Nothing. The only ones like him are the Reapers. The only ones he will be able to relate to are the Reapers. Eventually they will matter more. Because they are the only things he can connect to.

And when that happens? The galaxy is in for it.

This is a guarantee should Shepard stay Human. Because Humans are Human.

If all you are worried about is Reaper Shepard AI eventually losing control and going crazy overtime, fine, then take control of the Reapers, fix the Relays and tell all of the Reapers to go fly into the sun. You get to destroy the Reapers, you get to save the Geth and EDI, you prevent the Citadel from blowing up and you make it so galactic travel is unaffected. Destroy is pointless when you can save so much more if you are selfless and sacrifice yourself.

Time creates distance, sure, but the essence of who and what Shepard is is retained in control. This is NOT an organic anymore. It is an new AI construct that has Shepard's memories, thoughts and morals. It has a goal: Repair, Restore, and Promote Galactic Peace. Those were my Shepard's morals and goals.  

And if the Shepard AI can still feel emotions and memories; then it has plently of things to keep him/her from losing control. To watch over Liara's children, Wrex's children, Tali's family, ect. These bloodlines will span as long as they are safe, and because Shepard had strong relationships with these people, he can filled compelled to honor his friendships by keeping them safe. And keeping the alliances and peaces he/she forged over his lifetime safe forever. There will always be reasons to hang on and care.

[cerberus1701]

(1) Power can't corrupt a computer.


If power can't corrupt a computer that thinks it's human, then it's not Human and is probably going to crash from the paradox.

[BABEik52092]

cerberus1701 wrote...

(1) Power can't corrupt a computer.


If power can't corrupt a computer that thinks it's human, then it's not Human and is probably going to crash from the paradox.

But the Shepard Catalyst clearly realizes that he/she is NOT a human anymore, therefore it doesn't think it is human.

[Seival]

BABEik52092 wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

(1) Power can't corrupt a computer.


If power can't corrupt a computer that thinks it's human, then it's not Human and is probably going to crash from the paradox.

But the Shepard Catalyst clearly realizes that he/she is NOT a human anymore, therefore it doesn't think it is human.

Exactly.

[KwangtungTiger]

Seival wrote...

BABEik52092 wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

(1) Power can't corrupt a computer.


If power can't corrupt a computer that thinks it's human, then it's not Human and is probably going to crash from the paradox.

But the Shepard Catalyst clearly realizes that he/she is NOT a human anymore, therefore it doesn't think it is human.

Exactly.

 And sense Shepard no longer thinks like,acts like or even feels like a human. How long before it becomes the cold caculatory envisionment of the star child?

[Seival]

KwangtungTiger wrote...

Seival wrote...

BABEik52092 wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

(1) Power can't corrupt a computer.


If power can't corrupt a computer that thinks it's human, then it's not Human and is probably going to crash from the paradox.

But the Shepard Catalyst clearly realizes that he/she is NOT a human anymore, therefore it doesn't think it is human.

Exactly.

 And sense Shepard no longer thinks like,acts like or even feels like a human. How long before it becomes the cold caculatory envisionment of the star child?

Catalyst is an AI. It has programmed way of thinking. It follows the program's code. And that code was modified by Shepard's harvested essence in Control. So, if original Shepard considered Harvests as an acceptable solution - then Shepard-Catalyst may restart Harvests quite quickly. But if original Shepard didn't consider Harvests as an acceptable solution - then Catalyst-Shepard will only restart Harvests if there are no other possible solutions left.

Catalyst-Shepard still can apply Synthesis. It can also just keep order in the galaxy (using Reapers for that) forever. There are other ways too. Control is the only ending that makes Shepard's spirit to live on, and keep affecting the galactic civilization directly. Control is also the only ending that depends on Shepard's personality (I suggest you to watch all 6 base variants of this ending). The ending wouldn't be that various without everything I mentioned above.

[KwangtungTiger]

Seival wrote...

KwangtungTiger wrote...

Seival wrote...

BABEik52092 wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

(1) Power can't corrupt a computer.


If power can't corrupt a computer that thinks it's human, then it's not Human and is probably going to crash from the paradox.

But the Shepard Catalyst clearly realizes that he/she is NOT a human anymore, therefore it doesn't think it is human.

Exactly.

 And sense Shepard no longer thinks like,acts like or even feels like a human. How long before it becomes the cold caculatory envisionment of the star child?

Catalyst is an AI. It has programmed way of thinking. It follows the program's code. And that code was modified by Shepard's harvested essence in Control. So, if original Shepard considered Harvests as an acceptable solution - then Shepard-Catalyst may restart Harvests quite quickly. But if original Shepard didn't consider Harvests as an acceptable solution - then Catalyst-Shepard will only restart Harvests if there are no other possible solutions left.

Catalyst-Shepard still can apply Synthesis. It can also just keep order in the galaxy (using Reapers for that) forever. There are other ways too. Control is the only ending that makes Shepard's spirit to live on, and keep affecting the galactic civilization directly. Control is also the only ending that depends on Shepard's personality (I suggest you to watch all 6 base variants of this ending). The ending wouldn't be that various without everything I mentioned above.

 This whole thing is wrong......It LEARNED, not programmed to..

 In order to fulfill its task, it created pawns that spread throughout the galaxy, collecting physical data from various organics in the  cosmos. It studied the development of civilizations, and its  understanding grew until it found a solution.

The Catalyst determined that organics create synthetics to improve their own existence, but those improvements have limits. To  exceed those limits, synthetics must be allowed to evolve. They must, by definition, surpass their creators. The result is inevitable chaos and  destruction, so the Catalyst chose to resolve the problem of  organic-synthetic conflict by putting in place a system which would  prevent any civilization from reaching such a point.

 The FACT that the catalyst did indeed LEARN means Shepard-Catalyst could also come to the realization of the previous Catalyst.

Modifié par KwangtungTiger, 15 mars 2013 - 10:40 .

[N7 Banshee Bait]

I'm a little late to the party but I'm definitely in. Control is the best ending. Just win/win all around.

Modifié par N7 Banshee Bait, 15 mars 2013 - 10:54 .

[Seival]

KwangtungTiger wrote...

Seival wrote...

KwangtungTiger wrote...

Seival wrote...

BABEik52092 wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

(1) Power can't corrupt a computer.


If power can't corrupt a computer that thinks it's human, then it's not Human and is probably going to crash from the paradox.

But the Shepard Catalyst clearly realizes that he/she is NOT a human anymore, therefore it doesn't think it is human.

Exactly.

 And sense Shepard no longer thinks like,acts like or even feels like a human. How long before it becomes the cold caculatory envisionment of the star child?

Catalyst is an AI. It has programmed way of thinking. It follows the program's code. And that code was modified by Shepard's harvested essence in Control. So, if original Shepard considered Harvests as an acceptable solution - then Shepard-Catalyst may restart Harvests quite quickly. But if original Shepard didn't consider Harvests as an acceptable solution - then Catalyst-Shepard will only restart Harvests if there are no other possible solutions left.

Catalyst-Shepard still can apply Synthesis. It can also just keep order in the galaxy (using Reapers for that) forever. There are other ways too. Control is the only ending that makes Shepard's spirit to live on, and keep affecting the galactic civilization directly. Control is also the only ending that depends on Shepard's personality (I suggest you to watch all 6 base variants of this ending). The ending wouldn't be that various without everything I mentioned above.

 This whole thing is wrong......It LEARNED, not programmed to..

 In order to fulfill its task, it created pawns that spread throughout the galaxy, collecting physical data from various organics in the  cosmos. It studied the development of civilizations, and its  understanding grew until it found a solution.

The Catalyst determined that organics create synthetics to improve their own existence, but those improvements have limits. To  exceed those limits, synthetics must be allowed to evolve. They must, by definition, surpass their creators. The result is inevitable chaos and  destruction, so the Catalyst chose to resolve the problem of  organic-synthetic conflict by putting in place a system which would  prevent any civilization from reaching such a point.

 The FACT that the catalyst did indeed LEARN means Shepard-Catalyst could also come to the realization of the previous Catalyst.

And AI learning is in fact simple programming (gaining experience) based on complicated programming (intelligence, and way of thinking). The Catalyst is not a child who has to grow up to get the final state of mind development. The Catalyst already has the most advanced mind and the in the galaxy.

Everything the original Catalyst learned has come through the filter of its initial programming that was made by some of Leviathans. Shepard-Catalyst doesn't have to learn from the beginning, because it is the extended variant of the original Catalyst, who already has eons-long experience as a mind in the final state of development. This means Shepard-Catalyst will never repeat the original Catalyst mistakes.

I don't know if there any Shepard who can consider Harvests acceptable. And even the original Catalyst admitted that Harvests became outdated. So I think it's obvious that restarting Harvests is impossible in case of Paragon Control, and very unlikely in case of the worst Renegade Control.

[KwangtungTiger]

Seival wrote...

KwangtungTiger wrote...

Seival wrote...

KwangtungTiger wrote...

Seival wrote...

BABEik52092 wrote...

cerberus1701 wrote...

(1) Power can't corrupt a computer.


If power can't corrupt a computer that thinks it's human, then it's not Human and is probably going to crash from the paradox.

But the Shepard Catalyst clearly realizes that he/she is NOT a human anymore, therefore it doesn't think it is human.

Exactly.

 And sense Shepard no longer thinks like,acts like or even feels like a human. How long before it becomes the cold caculatory envisionment of the star child?

Catalyst is an AI. It has programmed way of thinking. It follows the program's code. And that code was modified by Shepard's harvested essence in Control. So, if original Shepard considered Harvests as an acceptable solution - then Shepard-Catalyst may restart Harvests quite quickly. But if original Shepard didn't consider Harvests as an acceptable solution - then Catalyst-Shepard will only restart Harvests if there are no other possible solutions left.

Catalyst-Shepard still can apply Synthesis. It can also just keep order in the galaxy (using Reapers for that) forever. There are other ways too. Control is the only ending that makes Shepard's spirit to live on, and keep affecting the galactic civilization directly. Control is also the only ending that depends on Shepard's personality (I suggest you to watch all 6 base variants of this ending). The ending wouldn't be that various without everything I mentioned above.

 This whole thing is wrong......It LEARNED, not programmed to..

 In order to fulfill its task, it created pawns that spread throughout the galaxy, collecting physical data from various organics in the  cosmos. It studied the development of civilizations, and its  understanding grew until it found a solution.

The Catalyst determined that organics create synthetics to improve their own existence, but those improvements have limits. To  exceed those limits, synthetics must be allowed to evolve. They must, by definition, surpass their creators. The result is inevitable chaos and  destruction, so the Catalyst chose to resolve the problem of  organic-synthetic conflict by putting in place a system which would  prevent any civilization from reaching such a point.

 The FACT that the catalyst did indeed LEARN means Shepard-Catalyst could also come to the realization of the previous Catalyst.

And AI learning is in fact simple programming (gaining experience) based on complicated programming (intelligence, and way of thinking). The Catalyst is not a child who has to grow up to get the final state of mind development. The Catalyst already has the most advanced mind and the in the galaxy.

Everything the original Catalyst learned has come through the filter of its initial programming that was made by some of Leviathans. Shepard-Catalyst doesn't have to learn from the beginning, because it is the extended variant of the original Catalyst, who already has eons-long experience as a mind in the final state of development. This means Shepard-Catalyst will never repeat the original Catalyst mistakes.

I don't know if there any Shepard who can consider Harvests acceptable. And even the original Catalyst admitted that Harvests became outdated. So I think it's obvious that restarting Harvests is impossible in case of Paragon Control, and very unlikely in case of the worst Renegade Control.

 You make the Catalyst out to be some simple computer (Which goes against some of your previous threads). The Catalyst was an AI. It came to the CONCLUSION (Not programmed to that conclusion) that the Harvest was needed.

[Seival]

KwangtungTiger wrote...

You make the Catalyst out to be some simple computer (Which goes against some of your previous threads). The Catalyst was an AI. It came to the CONCLUSION (Not programmed to that conclusion) that the Harvest was needed.

AIs base their conclusions on lower-level (i.e. much more complicated) programming. The original Catalyst was programmed to come to that kind of conclusion (even if that wasn't directly intended by original programmer).

And as you can see, the original Catalyst's programming eventually led it to the conclusion that Harvests became outdated. Remember the ending? It's was the Catalyst who suggested new solutions. Shepard could only choose (or refuse to cooperate).