4520 réponses à ce sujet

[The Night Mammoth]

Seival wrote...

(2) Yes, because Catalist says so! Catalist could left Shepard to die. Instead it saved her life, and admitted its own mistakes. Catalist has no reasons to lie.

I'd say it has every reason to lie. The Crucible is here, the fleet is here. The Reaper's doom is looking likely, and perhaps it feels fear, or the shackled AI emotionless equivalent. 

Not that I believe it's lying, just not telling us what is actually the reality. It might believe what it is saying, but that doesn't make it fact. 

[Seival]

Seival wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

(1) Through who else's eyes do we view it?

(2) WHY is it an option? Because the Catalyst says so?

(1) Through your own eyes of course! That's the point... It's just like reading a complicated book. When you read it literally, you can understand nothing.

(2) Yes, because Catalist says so! Catalist could left Shepard to die. Instead it saved her life, and admitted its own mistakes. Catalist has no reasons to lie.

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Seival wrote...

(2) Yes, because Catalist says so! Catalist could left Shepard to die. Instead it saved her life, and admitted its own mistakes. Catalist has no reasons to lie.

(3) I'd say it has every reason to lie. The Crucible is here, the fleet is here. The Reaper's doom is looking likely, and perhaps it feels fear, or the shackled AI emotionless equivalent.

Not that I believe it's lying, just not telling us what is actually the reality. It might believe what it is saying, but that doesn't make it fact.

(3) Disagree. And exactly because the Catalist could just left Shepard to die. Shepard couldn't do anything by herself to stop the Reapers in the very end. And without Shepard's help the entire Galactic Civilization will 100% fall. Catalist helped Shepard willingly, and only because Shepard manages to convince the Catalist that its solution was wrong. That's what Shepard's victory was about.

[killage_wizard]

Seival wrote...

(2) Yes, because Catalist says so! Catalist could left Shepard to die. Instead it saved her life, and admitted its own mistakes. Catalist has no reasons to lie.

The Catalyst has every reason to lie.  The Catalyst is controlling he Reapers, and is using them to do what he sees as right.  What reason does he have to give up that control?  He is tricking Shepard into exactly what TIM was being tricked into.  What makes Shep any different than TIM as far as the ability to control the Reapers?  His intentions?  So because TIM would conquer the universe with the Reapers that negates his ability to control them?  

[The Night Mammoth]

Seival wrote...

(3) Disagree. And exactly because the Catalist could just left Shepard to die. Shepard couldn't do anything by herself to stop the Reapers in the very end.

But the Crucible is there. I'd say within the context that it was either getting rid of the thing using Shepard, or maybe even gambling to see if it could even produce a better outcome than just defeating the fleet by attrition. 

And without Shepard's help the entire Galactic Civilization will 100% fall.

Yur in deep here neow boya, you don't want to open up this can of worms, we could be here till the horns of the horseman sound debating this little gem. 

Catalist helped Shepard willingly, and only because Shepard manages to convince the Catalist that its solution was wrong. That's what Shepard's victory was about.

Was it? I thought Shepard's victory was all about saving this cycle from destruction, having something to come back to.

It's not a victory unless those conditions are met. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 29 mai 2012 - 09:43 .

[Kunari801]

Control reminds me of a NIN song,"Head Like a Hole"... love the song but not the ending in ME3.

[Seival]

killage_wizard wrote...

Seival wrote...

(2) Yes, because Catalist says so! Catalist could left Shepard to die. Instead it saved her life, and admitted its own mistakes. Catalist has no reasons to lie.

The Catalyst has every reason to lie.  The Catalyst is controlling he Reapers, and is using them to do what he sees as right.  What reason does he have to give up that control?  He is tricking Shepard into exactly what TIM was being tricked into.  What makes Shep any different than TIM as far as the ability to control the Reapers?  His intentions?  So because TIM would conquer the universe with the Reapers that negates his ability to control them?  

Disagree. And exactly because the Catalist could just left Shepard to die. Shepard couldn't do anything by herself to stop the Reapers in the very end. And without Shepard's help the entire Galactic Civilization will 100% fall. Catalist helped Shepard willingly, and only because Shepard manages to convince the Catalist that its solution was wrong. That's what Shepard's victory was about.

ME3 uses "Deus Ex Machina" scenario in the end for reason. The problem is that not all players managed to understand it yet...

[The Night Mammoth]

Seival wrote...


ME3 uses "Deus Ex Machina" scenario in the end for reason. The problem is that not all players managed to understand it yet...

That reason being some bad writer's foolish vision for how Mass Effect should end. 

[killage_wizard]

Seival wrote...

ME3 uses "Deus Ex Machina" scenario in the end for reason. The problem is that not all players managed to understand it yet...

So the writers decided to use an ending that purposely contradicts and disregards the rest of the storylines events and logic?

Modifié par killage_wizard, 29 mai 2012 - 09:58 .

[frylock23]

Seival wrote...

killage_wizard wrote...

Seival wrote...

(2) Yes, because Catalist says so! Catalist could left Shepard to die. Instead it saved her life, and admitted its own mistakes. Catalist has no reasons to lie.

The Catalyst has every reason to lie.  The Catalyst is controlling he Reapers, and is using them to do what he sees as right.  What reason does he have to give up that control?  He is tricking Shepard into exactly what TIM was being tricked into.  What makes Shep any different than TIM as far as the ability to control the Reapers?  His intentions?  So because TIM would conquer the universe with the Reapers that negates his ability to control them?  

Disagree. And exactly because the Catalist could just left Shepard to die. Shepard couldn't do anything by herself to stop the Reapers in the very end. And without Shepard's help the entire Galactic Civilization will 100% fall. Catalist helped Shepard willingly, and only because Shepard manages to convince the Catalist that its solution was wrong. That's what Shepard's victory was about.

ME3 uses "Deus Ex Machina" scenario in the end for reason. The problem is that not all players managed to understand it yet...

So, you're defaulting to, "If you're arguing against it, you're clearly too dumb to get it?"

[Grimwick]

Seival wrote...

ME3 uses "Deus Ex Machina" scenario in the end for reason. The problem is that not all players managed to understand it yet...

You're not serious are you?

Please don't tell me you are serious.

[Seival]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Seival wrote...

ME3 uses "Deus Ex Machina" scenario in the end for reason. The problem is that not all players managed to understand it yet...

That reason being some bad writer's foolish vision for how Mass Effect should end. 

Grimwick wrote...

Seival wrote...

ME3 uses "Deus Ex Machina" scenario in the end for reason. The problem is that not all players managed to understand it yet...

You're not serious are you?

Please don't tell me you are serious.

I think that the writers did a great job. But the job is incomplete right now. There are three main problems left:

 (1) The endings are too short and blurry. They need much more details.
 (2) Normandy crash scene makes no sense without additional explanations.
 (3) Synthesis looks as an option to make the ending even worse then just a surrendering to Reapers without a fight.

...Hopefully, the EC will fix all of these problems.

Modifié par Seival, 29 mai 2012 - 10:37 .

[The Angry One]

Seival wrote...
(1) Through your own eyes of course! That's the point... It's just like reading a complicated book. When you read it literally, you can understand nothing.

Through our eyes we are told and shown that control is an impossible answer.
Literally, figuratively and symbolically.

(2) Yes, because Catalist says so! Catalist could left Shepard to die. Instead it saved her life,

Yes I forgot that being lifted on an elevator is a cure for bleeding.
Also, this is no basis for anything. Again, like I said, even if the Catalyst was trustworthy (which it isn't), it saying so is NOT enough.

and admitted its own mistakes.

It admits nothing. It states it's solution is unviable, and comes up with new ones still based on it's old agenda.
At no point does it admit that galactic genocide is actually a mistake.

Catalist has no reasons to lie.

So why does it lie?
It denies killing people, simply "ascending them to Reaper form". What about those it outright kills? They're not ascended.
It lies to your face! It has the gall to tell you that it ascends people while taking the form of a child it outright murdered.

Was Vent Boy ascended? Well, was he? If Vent Boy wasn't ascended, then it's lying. End of story.

Modifié par The Angry One, 29 mai 2012 - 10:53 .

[Jamie9]

The Angry One wrote...

So why does it lie?
It denies killing people, simply "ascending them to Reaper form". What about those it outright kills? They're not ascended.
It lies to your face! It has the gall to tell you that it ascends people while taking the form of a child it outright murdered.

Was Vent Boy ascended? Well, was he? If Vent Boy wasn't ascended, then it's lying. End of story.

Indeed. It is rather disturbing when you look at it from that perspective.

And the only possible reason the Catalyst would have for lying is that he doesn't think you would trust him (or his solutions) if he told you the truth.

[Jackums]

The Angry One wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Seival wrote...

The final 10 minutes of the game and the following Control ending says otherwise...

They say nothing.
We have the Catalyst (who lies about and misinterprets everything) saying you can, and Shepard assuming she can on the spot for no reason.
Again, 10 seconds of Reaper control say nothing. Yeah, sure. Shepard made the Reapers go away for that long. Control is about the long term by definition.

What was that again?

Are you serious or are you just pretending to be obtuse and completely missing the point?

Cop-out.

Shepard ends the Reaper threat regardless of your choice. "Ends." Not post-pones, not stalls; ends.

Modifié par JackumsD, 30 mai 2012 - 07:38 .

[Seival]

The Angry One wrote...

Seival wrote...
(1) Through your own eyes of course! That's the point... It's just like reading a complicated book. When you read it literally, you can understand nothing.

Through our eyes we are told and shown that control is an impossible answer.
Literally, figuratively and symbolically.

(2) Yes, because Catalist says so! Catalist could left Shepard to die. Instead it saved her life,

Yes I forgot that being lifted on an elevator is a cure for bleeding.
Also, this is no basis for anything. Again, like I said, even if the Catalyst was trustworthy (which it isn't), it saying so is NOT enough.

and admitted its own mistakes.

It admits nothing. It states it's solution is unviable, and comes up with new ones still based on it's old agenda.
At no point does it admit that galactic genocide is actually a mistake.

Catalist has no reasons to lie.

So why does it lie?
It denies killing people, simply "ascending them to Reaper form". What about those it outright kills? They're not ascended.
It lies to your face! It has the gall to tell you that it ascends people while taking the form of a child it outright murdered.

Was Vent Boy ascended? Well, was he? If Vent Boy wasn't ascended, then it's lying. End of story.

Well, I tried to help you to understand, and did everything I could... You just need more time to process that, I guess... Or you can just wait for EC to avoid deep-analize attempts. I'm sure that after EC release endings will be much easier to understand.

Modifié par Seival, 30 mai 2012 - 08:48 .

[Seival]

JackumsD wrote...

Shepard ends the Reaper threat regardless of your choice. "Ends." Not post-pones, not stalls; ends.

Exactly.

[incinerator950]

The Angry One wrote...

Seival wrote...
(1) Through your own eyes of course! That's the point... It's just like reading a complicated book. When you read it literally, you can understand nothing.

Through our eyes we are told and shown that control is an impossible answer.
Literally, figuratively and symbolically.

I tend to ignore everyone else in this topic, but to take your point apart, we were not directly told.  It was implied by Hackett and Anderson because of the current situation and past history with the Illusive Man.  Not only was it shown that you could Co-opt the Command Signal to Husk Forces, the Crucible was indeed capable of taking control of Reapers in entirety. 

Also, hi Angry.  How's your Line Admiral Volus and your 18th Century Turian Staff and Kwunu headcanon doing?

Modifié par incinerator950, 30 mai 2012 - 10:12 .

[Seival]

killage_wizard wrote...

Seival wrote...

ME3 uses "Deus Ex Machina" scenario in the end for reason. The problem is that not all players managed to understand it yet...

So the writers decided to use an ending that purposely contradicts and disregards the rest of the storylines events and logic?

Only Synthesis ending and Normandy crash scene are really ignore logic in current ending. This will be fixed in EC, I suppose.

About the storylines' detailed consequences - EC will add that to the game (epilogue), so don't worry.

Modifié par Seival, 30 mai 2012 - 10:10 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Seival wrote...


I think that the writers did a great job. But the job is incomplete right now. There are three main problems left:

 (1) The endings are too short and blurry. They need much more details.
 (2) Normandy crash scene makes no sense without additional explanations.
 (3) Synthesis looks as an option to make the ending even worse then just a surrendering to Reapers without a fight.

...Hopefully, the EC will fix all of these problems.

There are more problems than that. 

Pretty much every aspect is twisted. The serpent, and how moronic its inclusion is, its stupid problem we're supposed to care about, the situation you're in with the two structures no one seems to have noticed in last few million years, the choices and how idiotic they all are, the lack of epilogues of any sort, the Normandy crash and literally everything about it, the dozens of unanswered questions, Shepard's inevitable death, the plot holes and shoddy work they put in to the actual physical area, how arbitrary all those war assets become etc. 

The only redeemable feature is the goodbye with Anderson, and even that barely makes sense and could have been better. 

So unless the EC is taking out everything after you run towards the Conduit and replacing it, the problems won't go away.

[Obvakhi]

Seival wrote...

It's not time for anger or hate! It's time to show BioWare some support dedicated to upcoming ME3 Extended Cut, and in my case to some particular ending. All Control Ending fans, UNITE! 

Who is this 'she'? Because Shepard is clearly male.

[B3ckett]

The choice control is only the beggining... of ctrl+alt+delete on everybody's fate.

Fact is, the starbrat kinda looks satisfied...
http://www.youtube.c...nZjajOAA#t=120s

[Ageless Face]

B3ckett wrote...

The choice control is only the beggining... of ctrl+alt+delete on everybody's fate.

Fact is, the starbrat kinda looks satisfied...
http://www.youtube.c...nZjajOAA#t=120s

Sorry, but I don't see his face clearly enough to see any expression on his face.

Even if the catalsyt does smile or something, the fact he is smiling becuase he is lauging at Shepard for choosing control is an interpretation on your end. Someone else saw the catalyst looking at Shepard with respect and admiration.

There is nothing to indicate control is killing anyone. The fact you want to believe it does not make it true. I'd like to believe Shepard became a god who can shoot lighting when s/he gets pissed if s/he'll choose control, but I know it's not true.

Modifié par HagarIshay, 30 mai 2012 - 11:25 .

[JA Shepard]

If the Starchild wanted Shepard to fail he could also have just said nothing at all. If you believe he can choose to lie he should also be able to choose to say nothing. Without his explanation, Shepard would never have known what any of the choices were or what they did. Shepard might have even sat there confused about where he suddenly was right then until it was too late.

If there was only one "right choice" then probability alone favors Shepard making an incorrect decision, so why say anything or even appear? And if he thought Shepard randomly guessed right, then appear and speak just to create confusion. Sure, he could be lying but he has a safer option to defeat Shep if that is the goal. That's even if you assume that bringing Shepard into the chamber is out of The Catalyst's control. It's all an overly elaborate means to defeat one person who was bleeding out and unconscious. Cartoon supervillain elaborate, even.

[vvDRUCILLAvv]

B3ckett wrote...

The choice control is only the beggining... of ctrl+alt+delete on everybody's fate.

Fact is, the starbrat kinda looks satisfied...
http://www.youtube.c...nZjajOAA#t=120s

I noticed the starchild giving Shepard a look too but I saw it as a sinister smirk of sorts.

[Seival]

Obvakhi wrote...

Seival wrote...

It's not time for anger or hate! It's time to show BioWare some support dedicated to upcoming ME3 Extended Cut, and in my case to some particular ending. All Control Ending fans, UNITE! 

Who is this 'she'? Because Shepard is clearly male.

I don't know anything about male Shepard...

...For me Shepard is always she, with charming Jennifer Hale voice 

...Seriously, male Shepard speaks like a robot. That voice actor should voice the Elcor. No offence...

Modifié par Seival, 30 mai 2012 - 11:51 .