4520 réponses à ce sujet

[Seival]

Shepard Wins wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

Seival wrote...


Very good question, by the way.

Liara will 100% choose Control... The same way she has chosen to become a new Shadowbroker instead of destroying his network. Liara assumed direct control of previous Shadowbroker's resources and operatives to do a lot of good. And this power didn't corrupt her.

Oooh, how could I forget about that?!?!? Such an idiot. Yes, Liara will definitely choose control.

A valid parallel but completely different situations. Controlling Shadow Broker network didn't involve Reapers.

These situations are the same. They involve the same way of thinking... They just have different scale.

[JA Shepard]

EDI is the biggest question mark for me. If Joker is the first thing she's ever loved, the Reapers are the first things she has ever truly hated and is very articulate in explaining why. But if you present her with evidence that the Reapers can be controlled, does her logical side weigh that evidence more heavily against her emotional desire to put them to an end?

Then, Joker is suddenly in play. Does he support destroy if it means losing EDI? You also can't forget about his sister being in a colony hit by Reapers. He stands out as possibly the most conflicted character in this situation. Does he want revenge or does he want to not risk losing anyone else? He'd desperately want to believe there was another way to keep EDI. It may not take as much to convince him as it might to convince EDI if you agree to fly the Reapers to the sun after you're done with them.

This is ridiculously fun to think about this. More reason to support control, I guess.

Modifié par JA Shepard, 31 mai 2012 - 11:42 .

[Jamie9]

But the most important character now:

What would Conrad Verner pick if he was at the Crucible. Control, destroy, synthesis? I just don't know, I just don't know.

[JA Shepard]

"What Would Conrad Verner Do?" bumper stickers! Do it!

[Ageless Face]

JA Shepard wrote...

EDI is the biggest question mark for me. If Joker is the first thing she's ever loved, the Reapers are the first things she has ever truly hated and is very articulate in explaining why. But if you present her with evidence that the Reapers can be controlled, does her logical side weigh that evidence more heavily against her emotional desire to put them to an end?

Then, Joker is suddenly in play. Does he support destroy if it means losing EDI? You also can't forget about his sister being in a colony hit by Reapers. He stands out as possibly the most conflicted character in this situation. Does he want revenge or does he want to not risk losing anyone else? He'd desperately want to believe there was another way to keep EDI. It may not take as much to convince him as it might to convince EDI if you agree to fly the Reapers to the sun after you're done with them.

This is ridiculously fun to think about this. More reason to support control, I guess.

both EDI and Joker I'm sure will choose synthesis. EDI even more. She will not sacrafice her self- she just found the humanity in her, but she knows she is still not organic. And we see how much she wants to be, and yet she also don't want to comletley remove the synthtic mind from herself. On top of that, she and Joker love each other, and the fact they are diversed for being "organics" and "synthetics" is surely sad for them both. 

Joker may be more conflicted, but he will not want to loose EDI. And from some reason I don't see him choosing control. The most evidence for it, is they seem the most happy in synthesis ending, both hugging each other.

And I agree it's fun to think about it. So many say the ending is bad, but honetly, is there any other ending for a game  or a book or a movie people are obsessivly trying to analyze? BioWare is built from a group of ending-rushers geniuses:D.

Jamie9 wrote...

But the most important character now:

What would Conrad Verner pick if he was at the Crucible. Control, destroy, synthesis? I just don't know, I just don't know.

 

He will choose what Shepard will choose, of course! 


Or he will choose to control Shepard and marry him/her and live happily ever after. Now Verner fans, come to our side! 

[Seival]

JA Shepard wrote...

EDI is the biggest question mark for me. If Joker is the first thing she's ever loved, the Reapers are the first things she has ever truly hated and is very articulate in explaining why. But if you present her with evidence that the Reapers can be controlled, does her logical side weigh that evidence more heavily against her emotional desire to put them to an end?

Then, Joker is suddenly in play. Does he support destroy if it means losing EDI? You also can't forget about his sister being in a colony hit by Reapers. He stands out as possibly the most conflicted character in this situation. Does he want revenge or does he want to not risk losing anyone else? He'd desperately want to believe there was another way to keep EDI. It may not take as much to convince him as it might to convince EDI if you agree to fly the Reapers to the sun after you're done with them.

This is ridiculously fun to think about this. More reason to support control, I guess.

Well, EDI actually didn't say anything about hating the Reapers. Moreover, in one of conversations she showed some respect to them (called them and the Geth successful synthetic life forms). EDI sees enemies in Reapers, but EDI also respects them as the enemies.

...In the end EDI became even more "human" than some true humans around. How can anyone backstab this living being and think that it was a paragon choice? Sacrificing the Geth and EDI to stop the Reapers is pure renegade option. So everyone should understand that Control = Paragon, and Destroy = Renegade. And it doesn't mean that Control or Destroy is "the best" option. They are just different ways to stop the Reapers, nothing more.

Modifié par Seival, 31 mai 2012 - 11:58 .

[Ageless Face]

Seival wrote...


...In the end EDI became even more "human" than some true humans around. How can anyone backstab this living being and think that it was a paragon choice? Sacrificing the Geth and EDI to stop the Reapers is pure renegade option. So everyone should understand that Control = Paragon, and Destroy = Renegade. And it doesn't mean that Control or Destroy is "the best" option. They are just different ways to stop the Reapers, nothing more.

I don't really think we should say Control = Paragon, Destroy = Renegade. It's soo much of a question mark. The pro-destroy even think it's the opposite. so far to think the catalsyt is tricking us. No one will dare to question keeping the colloctor base is renegade, and destroying it is paragon.

We should really stop looking at things with colors. There are paragon side to every option, as well as a renegade side. EDI could choose destroy becasue she thinks the reapers will kill her friends, or control the reapers to save her and all the synthetics without turning into partly organic.

Yet I still think she will choose synthesis . Just seem to be more likely for her to choose. Have you seen how happy she is in the ending? :innocent: 

Modifié par HagarIshay, 31 mai 2012 - 12:16 .

[Jamie9]

HagarIshay wrote...

I don't really think we should say Control = Paragon, Destroy = Renegade. It's soo much of a question mark. The pro-destroy even think it's the opposite. so far to think the catalsyt is tricking us. No one will dare to question keeping the colloctor base is renegade, and destroying it is paragon.

We should really stop looking at things with colors. There are paragon side to every option, as well as a renegade side. EDI could choose destroy becasue she thinks the reapers will kill her friends, or control the reapers to save her and all the synthetics without turning into partly organic.

Yet I still think she will choose synthesis . Just seem to be more likely for her to choose. Have you seen how happy she is in the ending? :innocent: 

I agree that EDI would choose synthesis.

I do think control is more paragon than destroy, and not because of the colors. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, if pro-destroyers think the Catalyst is lying, why are they shooting that frickin' tube? It could blow up the Crucible. You have no reason to trust the Catalyst, right?

[JA Shepard]

Right. Renegade is more expedient while Paragon is more methodical. They don't mean good or evil in the context of Mass Effect. They get the job done just the same. If you need to ensure the Reapers are gone, then losing EDI, the Geth and perhaps all other synthetic life may be absolutely acceptable losses in a war of this scale. Others just happen to feel that the cost is far too high and goes against the effort you're making against the Reapers when there is a viable alternative to ending the threat.

[Ageless Face]

Jamie9 wrote...

I agree that EDI would choose synthesis.

I do think control is more paragon than destroy, and not because of the colors. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, if pro-destroyers think the Catalyst is lying, why are they shooting that frickin' tube? It could blow up the Crucible. You have no reason to trust the Catalyst, right?

I don't know. It's seem more like there is a paragon and there is a renegade into every choice. Even if not, I still believe BioWare should have kept the colors aside, at least at the ending choice. It's so messing up people's judjement, choosing by a rule and not by what they believe.

And Yeah, It's so stupid to choose any of the choices if you believe the catalsyt is lying. What, he lies about control and synthesis, choices that will keep the peace, but not about destroy, when he says himself the peace won't last? If anything, he is lying about destroy and telling the truth about synthesis and control. 

But there is no way he is lying anyway. Unless, of course, BioWare will completley change the ending and be a fan-puppet.

[Ageless Face]

On a side note, wanted to ask: What do you think Kasumi will choose (if you had her DLC)? I think she will choose control, but I'm unable to figure out why. Or Thane? He is a huge question mark to me.

I also can't figure what Kaidan will choose.

Modifié par HagarIshay, 31 mai 2012 - 12:41 .

[CroGamer002]

HagarIshay wrote...

On a side note, wanted to ask: What do you think Kasumi will choose (if you had her DLC)? I think she will choose control, but I'm unable to figure out why. Or Thane? He is a huge question mark to me.

I'm sure Kasumi would say no to Synthesis and said something like "eeeeew" on it.

Though for Control and Destroy, I don't think she would know what to choose.



As for Thane, I think he would be against Control, due to how his religion works. At least, what I little know of his religion.

HagarIshay wrote...

I also can't figure what Kaidan will choose.

Not Synthesis, that's for sure.


I think he would consider Control little more over Destroy, only due to not wanting death to geth and EDI.
Though still wouldn't drop Destroy option since he would think Reapers being alive would be too much of a risk.

Modifié par Mesina2, 31 mai 2012 - 12:46 .

[Seival]

HagarIshay wrote...

Seival wrote...


...In the end EDI became even more "human" than some true humans around. How can anyone backstab this living being and think that it was a paragon choice? Sacrificing the Geth and EDI to stop the Reapers is pure renegade option. So everyone should understand that Control = Paragon, and Destroy = Renegade. And it doesn't mean that Control or Destroy is "the best" option. They are just different ways to stop the Reapers, nothing more.

I don't really think we should say Control = Paragon, Destroy = Renegade. It's soo much of a question mark. The pro-destroy even think it's the opposite. so far to think the catalsyt is tricking us. No one will dare to question keeping the colloctor base is renegade, and destroying it is paragon.

We should really stop looking at things with colors. There are paragon side to every option, as well as a renegade side. EDI could choose destroy becasue she thinks the reapers will kill her friends, or control the reapers to save her and all the synthetics without turning into partly organic.

Yet I still think she will choose synthesis . Just seem to be more likely for her to choose. Have you seen how happy she is in the ending? :innocent: 

Well, yes... As I said before, ME Trilogy has:

 - Paragon choices with Paragon consequences.
 - Renegade choices with Renagade consequences.
 - Paragon choices with Renegade consequences.
 - Renegade choices with Paragon consequences.

What did I mean with "everyone should understand that Control = Paragon, and Destroy = Renegade " is that particular way of thinking is involved to make one or another choice. For example, Paragon way of thinking is always against backstabbing friends. While renegade way of thinking is always about not caring about the ones, who stand between you and your target.

Modifié par Seival, 31 mai 2012 - 12:44 .

[Ageless Face]

Seival wrote...

Well, yes... As I said before, ME Trilogy has:

 - Paragon choices with Paragon consequences.
 - Renegade choices with Renagade consequences.
 - Paragon choices with Renegade consequences.
 - Renegade choices with Paragon consequences.

What did I mean with "everyone should understand that Control = Paragon, and Destroy = Renegade " is that particular way of thinking is involved to make one or another choice. For example, Paragon way of thinking is always against backstabbing friends. While renegade way of thinking is always about not caring about the ones, who stand between you and your target.

Fair enough, though I still think catgorizing the endnig choices was silly from BioWare:P

Mesina2 wrote...

I'm sure Kasumi would say no to Synthesis and said something like "eeeeew" on it.

Though for Control and Destroy, I don't think she would know what to choose.

 

Then i'd guess it's safe to assume she will run back to the elevator, huh?

 
As for Thane, I think he would be against Control, due to how his religion works. At least, what I little know of his religion.

 

Right. Then I'd guess he won't choose synthesis either for that. Guess destroy goes for him.

 
Not Synthesis, that's for sure.


I think he would consider Control little more over Destroy, only due to not wanting death to geth and EDI.
Though still wouldn't drop Destroy option since he would think Reapers being alive would be too much of a risk.

 

I would agree on synthesis. As for control and destroy, I'm kind of wondering. He to has a cooprative side, aliens or synthetics. But I really doubt he will choose control. He has that side of "not trusting your enemy" (I don't mind that side, don't get me wrong). I highly doubt he will choose control, even if just because of TIM. Same can be said for Ashley, but I think she will choose destroy anyway.

Modifié par HagarIshay, 31 mai 2012 - 01:04 .

[Seival]

 About Kasumi and Thane...

...I think that Kasumi will prefer Control because she is the thief, and Thane will prefer Destroy because he is the assassin.

Modifié par Seival, 31 mai 2012 - 01:22 .

[Jamie9]

@HagarIshay

I don't like the paragon and renegade system that much anyway. It much prefer Dragon Age's style of companion approval (or friendship/rivalry).

It makes it to easy to cure the Genophage because it's the paragon option. I still think it's the right thing to do, but it would definitely be a decision people would deliberate more if it wasn't clearly defined.

So I don't think it just applies to the ending, but the whole system.

[DarkSeraphym]

I thought the endings were ambiguous enough, especially when we given extremely little context for Shepard's input on selecting them, that any one of them could be Renegade or Paragon depending on the player. I'm a fan of the Control ending, but I didn't choose it out of any compassion for the Geth or EDI. I chose Control because I found The Illusive Man's allusion to the situation with the Mass Relays and the desire to destroy them when they were first found to be pretty convincing. Call me misguided, but I was extremely sympathetic to TIM's desires to exploit technology to advance the human race throughout this series. I suppose that probably falls under "Renegade" given the precedent set by the decision of Overlord and the Collector Base.

Regardless, I'm glad to see there is a support group for this ending, even if my headcanon consists of Shepard using the Reapers for the advancement of humanity. I hope they don't add epilogue slides into the EC. I'm not a big fan of the overall ending, but I liked the ambiguity that came with the ending choices, especially when I can have completely different motives from the majority of you in picking this one ending.

[Ageless Face]

Seival wrote...

 About Kasumi and Thane...

...I think that Kasumi will prefer Control because she is the thief, and Thane will prefer Destroy because he is the assassin.

Thane is may be an assassin, but he has a surprising careness for life. He was an assassin to kill the bad guys, and to let the innocents live in harmony and all that.

But yeah, I guess he will choose destroy.

[MegaSovereign]

Gogzilla wrote...

Why did i shoot TIM if i was going to choose control

Because he doesn't. In the renegade persuade options Shepard tells him to go head and use the crucible to control them. He never does because the reapers won't let him since he is indoctrinated.

[pistolols]

HagarIshay wrote...

I don't really think we should say Control = Paragon, Destroy = Renegade.

I think we should... and not just because of the colors... but because if you were to look at the crucible choices from the top down you would see that it is set up exactly like the dialogue wheel with the paragon choice being top right, renegade on the bottom and synthesis is the middle neutral choice.  It's a deliberate nod to the game by the developers.  Very cool how they did that.

[Seival]

Jamie9 wrote...

@HagarIshay

I don't like the paragon and renegade system that much anyway. It much prefer Dragon Age's style of companion approval (or friendship/rivalry).

It makes it to easy to cure the Genophage because it's the paragon option. I still think it's the right thing to do, but it would definitely be a decision people would deliberate more if it wasn't clearly defined.

So I don't think it just applies to the ending, but the whole system.

I agree that paragon-renegade system is a little outdated, and DA2 reputation system is better... But I don't think they will add DA2 reputation system to ME Trilogy. So, we have to act in paragon-renegade "coordinates" anyway. 

[Jamie9]

Seival wrote...

I agree that paragon-renegade system is a little outdated, and DA2 reputation system is better... But I don't think they will add DA2 reputation system to ME Trilogy. So, we have to act in paragon-renegade "coordinates" anyway. 

Indeed. It's become a staple of the franchise. And it's 100% better than no morality system at all. At least we do get to make moral choices.

Mass Effect 3 was at least a bit better in that you weren't forced into going all paragon or all renegade. The reputation system did help a little bit in that regard.

[Taboo]

pistolols wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

I don't really think we should say Control = Paragon, Destroy = Renegade.

I think we should... and not just because of the colors... but because if you were to look at the crucible choices from the top down you would see that it is set up exactly like the dialogue wheel with the paragon choice being top right, renegade on the bottom and synthesis is the middle neutral choice.  It's a deliberate nod to the game by the developers.  Very cool how they did that.

Yes. What's even more cool is that green is a neutral color and it fills the void when used in paintings and films. Red is harsh and blue is calming.

I don't really assign much credence to them though, as I feel the colors are only there for convienience, as none of the choices are really ethical.

[Jamie9]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Yes. What's even more cool is that green is a neutral color and it fills the void when used in paintings and films. Red is harsh and blue is calming.

I don't really assign much credence to them though, as I feel the colors are only there for convienience, as none of the choices are really ethical.

Yeah, each choice does contain a moral wrong. Control affects the Reapers, so it would seem to affect the least amount of people.

It's either that, or we let the Reapers destroy all life forever more. We don't have much of a choice.

[Seival]

Jamie9 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Yes. What's even more cool is that green is a neutral color and it fills the void when used in paintings and films. Red is harsh and blue is calming.

I don't really assign much credence to them though, as I feel the colors are only there for convienience, as none of the choices are really ethical.

Yeah, each choice does contain a moral wrong. Control affects the Reapers, so it would seem to affect the least amount of people.

It's either that, or we let the Reapers destroy all life forever more. We don't have much of a choice.

All war choices are more or less unethical... But personally, I prefer to make the less unethical ones.