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[killage_wizard]

JackumsD wrote...

killage_wizard wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

I never said their methods were a win for organics. I said the result of their methods (the prevention of a TS) is a win for organics, which I also clarified was under the assumption that a TS was inevitable without their intervention. I also never said the means justified the ends or that the Catalyst had any right to do anything.

I corrected you on your claim that the Reapers' goal was Synthesis, because it was not. Their goal was the prevention of a technological singularity; fact. That was the only point I was making.

But if synthesis is a means to an end, then synthesis is a goal.  If they really wanted to prevent an TS couldn't they just hang around and kick the **** out of an evil race of A.I.'s if they tried to wipe out all the organics in the universe?  They could be gaurdians, but they choose to be murderers.

No, they couldn't. A technological singularity is an event horizon. It's a point of no return. Once a TS occurs, that's it. You prevent it happening in the first place or you fail. There's no stopping it once it has happened. That's the whole reason for the Reapers' existence. And again, I'm not debating the morals of the Catalyst. I was simply correcting your notion that the Reapers' goal was Synthesis.

But  if the goal is to prevent a TS, and synthesis is one possibly means to that end (in addition to murder) does that not make synthesis and murder a goal?

[Jackums]

killage_wizard wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

killage_wizard wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

I never said their methods were a win for organics. I said the result of their methods (the prevention of a TS) is a win for organics, which I also clarified was under the assumption that a TS was inevitable without their intervention. I also never said the means justified the ends or that the Catalyst had any right to do anything.

I corrected you on your claim that the Reapers' goal was Synthesis, because it was not. Their goal was the prevention of a technological singularity; fact. That was the only point I was making.

But if synthesis is a means to an end, then synthesis is a goal.  If they really wanted to prevent an TS couldn't they just hang around and kick the **** out of an evil race of A.I.'s if they tried to wipe out all the organics in the universe?  They could be gaurdians, but they choose to be murderers.

No, they couldn't. A technological singularity is an event horizon. It's a point of no return. Once a TS occurs, that's it. You prevent it happening in the first place or you fail. There's no stopping it once it has happened. That's the whole reason for the Reapers' existence. And again, I'm not debating the morals of the Catalyst. I was simply correcting your notion that the Reapers' goal was Synthesis.

But  if the goal is to prevent a TS, and synthesis is one possibly means to that end (in addition to murder) does that not make synthesis and murder a goal?

That makes Synthesis a solution to the problem the Reapers were combating. But Synthesis was never their goal. It was an option that Shepard was capable of selecting of his/her own free will.

[Ageless Face]

killage_wizard wrote...


To me just releasing an EC undermines their artisitc integrity.  Its one thing if they were going to release an EC whether the fan reaction was good or not, but they are only doing it because they are getting hammered for what they put out.  The end should be the end.

To be honest, I have no idea what I feel about the EC. I don't really hate the ending. In fact, some parts of it I actually thought the base idea of them is very nice, for intance, the final choices. However, there are still so many things that are left behind. Sense is in one of them. I just hope the EC will be good, and BioWare will not do exactly what the fans demand from them (meaning, they won't make a lovley ending with birds and everybody live without consequences. Too unrealistic).

[MegaSovereign]

The reapers aren't gods. They can die. Shepard took out one on foot in mass effect 2. And several die in mass effect 3.

If they were gods and they can't be defeated then there is no way the game can conclude with the reapers losing.

[killage_wizard]

HagarIshay wrote...

killage_wizard wrote...


To me just releasing an EC undermines their artisitc integrity.  Its one thing if they were going to release an EC whether the fan reaction was good or not, but they are only doing it because they are getting hammered for what they put out.  The end should be the end.

To be honest, I have no idea what I feel about the EC. I don't really hate the ending. In fact, some parts of it I actually thought the base idea of them is very nice, for intance, the final choices. However, there are still so many things that are left behind. Sense is in one of them. I just hope the EC will be good, and BioWare will not do exactly what the fans demand from them (meaning, they won't make a lovley ending with birds and everybody live without consequences. Too unrealistic).

That is a common mistake that the minority who actually like the ending make.  No one wants a happy New Hope hand out the medals ending.  If I had my way I would actually have an ending where the Reapers win (if your EMS is not high enough).  I also played the entire game assuming a large chunk of my crew would not make it.  Especially Shepard.  Its not about happy.  It about having an ending that does not completely contradict the logic established in the previous narrative.

[killage_wizard]

JackumsD wrote...

killage_wizard wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

killage_wizard wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

I never said their methods were a win for organics. I said the result of their methods (the prevention of a TS) is a win for organics, which I also clarified was under the assumption that a TS was inevitable without their intervention. I also never said the means justified the ends or that the Catalyst had any right to do anything.

I corrected you on your claim that the Reapers' goal was Synthesis, because it was not. Their goal was the prevention of a technological singularity; fact. That was the only point I was making.

But if synthesis is a means to an end, then synthesis is a goal.  If they really wanted to prevent an TS couldn't they just hang around and kick the **** out of an evil race of A.I.'s if they tried to wipe out all the organics in the universe?  They could be gaurdians, but they choose to be murderers.

No, they couldn't. A technological singularity is an event horizon. It's a point of no return. Once a TS occurs, that's it. You prevent it happening in the first place or you fail. There's no stopping it once it has happened. That's the whole reason for the Reapers' existence. And again, I'm not debating the morals of the Catalyst. I was simply correcting your notion that the Reapers' goal was Synthesis.

But  if the goal is to prevent a TS, and synthesis is one possibly means to that end (in addition to murder) does that not make synthesis and murder a goal?

That makes Synthesis a solution to the problem the Reapers were combating. But Synthesis was never their goal. It was an option that Shepard was capable of selecting of his/her own free will.

I feel like you are trying to split hairs.  A solution to a goal is a goal in itself.

[MegaSovereign]

Don't see how it contradicts the narrative. Control, destroy, synthesis, and tech singularity were all foreshadowed one way or another.

[Jackums]

killage_wizard wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

killage_wizard wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

killage_wizard wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

I never said their methods were a win for organics. I said the result of their methods (the prevention of a TS) is a win for organics, which I also clarified was under the assumption that a TS was inevitable without their intervention. I also never said the means justified the ends or that the Catalyst had any right to do anything.

I corrected you on your claim that the Reapers' goal was Synthesis, because it was not. Their goal was the prevention of a technological singularity; fact. That was the only point I was making.

But if synthesis is a means to an end, then synthesis is a goal.  If they really wanted to prevent an TS couldn't they just hang around and kick the **** out of an evil race of A.I.'s if they tried to wipe out all the organics in the universe?  They could be gaurdians, but they choose to be murderers.

No, they couldn't. A technological singularity is an event horizon. It's a point of no return. Once a TS occurs, that's it. You prevent it happening in the first place or you fail. There's no stopping it once it has happened. That's the whole reason for the Reapers' existence. And again, I'm not debating the morals of the Catalyst. I was simply correcting your notion that the Reapers' goal was Synthesis.

But  if the goal is to prevent a TS, and synthesis is one possibly means to that end (in addition to murder) does that not make synthesis and murder a goal?

That makes Synthesis a solution to the problem the Reapers were combating. But Synthesis was never their goal. It was an option that Shepard was capable of selecting of his/her own free will.

I feel like you are trying to split hairs.  A solution to a goal is a goal in itself.

No. The Reapers existed to prevent synthetics wiping out organics. Fact. The Catalyst explained this. Not once did it or any of the Reapers state they wanted organics and synthetics to become one. Nor did they attempt to make this happen. This "solution" didn't even become apparent until the last 5 minutes of the game. It was never their goal. It was an option to end their need to exist anymore. It made the Reapers moot.

And a solution and goal are not the same at all. They're entirely different things, both in definition and concept.

Modifié par JackumsD, 01 juin 2012 - 03:14 .

[Seival]

killage_wizard wrote...

Seival wrote...
BioWare just wanna please all players who prefers less thinking and more watching/listening. Also, they wanted to add an epilogue, remember? It was nice and constructive idea, suggested by fans. Epilogue will not affect the endings. They will remain the same. The only true problem right now is the Normandy Crash scene.

So the vast majority of people who hate the ending are idiots?  Because to me "players who prefer less thinking" is exactly what you imply by that statement.

Not at all. Vast majority of people who hate the endings just expected that the endings will be understandable automatically. They were ready to "play the game", but were not ready to "read the book".

Modifié par Seival, 01 juin 2012 - 03:18 .

[killage_wizard]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Don't see how it contradicts the narrative. Control, destroy, synthesis, and tech singularity were all foreshadowed one way or another.

Its not that they weren't foreshadowed.  Its the foreshadowing contradicts the end.

-Control is contradictory because right up to that moment you argue against it so successfully that you get TIM to kill himself.

-Synthesis is contradicatory because you are giving up.  Shepard does not give up.

-Destory isn't contradictory, but at the same time the Geth/EDI aspect of i completely comes out of left field.

[Ageless Face]

killage_wizard wrote...

That is a common mistake that the minority who actually like the ending make.  No one wants a happy New Hope hand out the medals ending.  If I had my way I would actually have an ending where the Reapers win (if your EMS is not high enough).  I also played the entire game assuming a large chunk of my crew would not make it.  Especially Shepard.  Its not about happy.  It about having an ending that does not completely contradict the logic established in the previous narrative.

Actally, I've read many posts who want a disney end. Shepard lives, Reapers dead, Shepard living happily ever after with LI. That is one of the reasons some people who chose destroy want to believe the catlasyt is lying.

Modifié par HagarIshay, 01 juin 2012 - 03:21 .

[killage_wizard]

JackumsD wrote...

killage_wizard wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

killage_wizard wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

killage_wizard wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

I never said their methods were a win for organics. I said the result of their methods (the prevention of a TS) is a win for organics, which I also clarified was under the assumption that a TS was inevitable without their intervention. I also never said the means justified the ends or that the Catalyst had any right to do anything.

I corrected you on your claim that the Reapers' goal was Synthesis, because it was not. Their goal was the prevention of a technological singularity; fact. That was the only point I was making.

But if synthesis is a means to an end, then synthesis is a goal.  If they really wanted to prevent an TS couldn't they just hang around and kick the **** out of an evil race of A.I.'s if they tried to wipe out all the organics in the universe?  They could be gaurdians, but they choose to be murderers.

No, they couldn't. A technological singularity is an event horizon. It's a point of no return. Once a TS occurs, that's it. You prevent it happening in the first place or you fail. There's no stopping it once it has happened. That's the whole reason for the Reapers' existence. And again, I'm not debating the morals of the Catalyst. I was simply correcting your notion that the Reapers' goal was Synthesis.

But  if the goal is to prevent a TS, and synthesis is one possibly means to that end (in addition to murder) does that not make synthesis and murder a goal?

That makes Synthesis a solution to the problem the Reapers were combating. But Synthesis was never their goal. It was an option that Shepard was capable of selecting of his/her own free will.

I feel like you are trying to split hairs.  A solution to a goal is a goal in itself.

No. The Reapers existed to prevent synthetics wiping out organics. Fact. The Catalyst explained this. Not once did it or any of the Reapers state they wanted organics and synthetics to become one. Nor did they attempt to make this happen. This "solution" didn't even become apparent until the last 5 minutes of the game. It was never their goal. It was an option to end their need to exist anymore. It made the Reapers moot.

And a solution and goal are not the same at all. They're entirely different things, both in definition and concept.

The Reapers are beings created of synthesis.  That's how they reproduce.  They take the genetic structure of a species and ad it to themselves.  Synthesis is exactly what creates husks and collectors.

[killage_wizard]

Seival wrote...

killage_wizard wrote...

Seival wrote...
BioWare just wanna please all players who prefers less thinking and more watching/listening. Also, they wanted to add an epilogue, remember? It was nice and constructive idea, suggested by fans. Epilogue will not affect the endings. They will remain the same. The only true problem right now is the Normandy Crash scene.

So the vast majority of people who hate the ending are idiots?  Because to me "players who prefer less thinking" is exactly what you imply by that statement.

Not at all. Vast majority of people who hate the endings just expected that the endings will be understandable automatically. They were ready to "play the game", but were not ready to "read the book".

Again with the implication that we are uncapable of understanding the ending.  Dues Ex Machina does not make a story "smart".

[killage_wizard]

killage_wizard wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

killage_wizard wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

killage_wizard wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

killage_wizard wrote...

JackumsD wrote...

I never said their methods were a win for organics. I said the result of their methods (the prevention of a TS) is a win for organics, which I also clarified was under the assumption that a TS was inevitable without their intervention. I also never said the means justified the ends or that the Catalyst had any right to do anything.

I corrected you on your claim that the Reapers' goal was Synthesis, because it was not. Their goal was the prevention of a technological singularity; fact. That was the only point I was making.

But if synthesis is a means to an end, then synthesis is a goal.  If they really wanted to prevent an TS couldn't they just hang around and kick the **** out of an evil race of A.I.'s if they tried to wipe out all the organics in the universe?  They could be gaurdians, but they choose to be murderers.

No, they couldn't. A technological singularity is an event horizon. It's a point of no return. Once a TS occurs, that's it. You prevent it happening in the first place or you fail. There's no stopping it once it has happened. That's the whole reason for the Reapers' existence. And again, I'm not debating the morals of the Catalyst. I was simply correcting your notion that the Reapers' goal was Synthesis.

But  if the goal is to prevent a TS, and synthesis is one possibly means to that end (in addition to murder) does that not make synthesis and murder a goal?

That makes Synthesis a solution to the problem the Reapers were combating. But Synthesis was never their goal. It was an option that Shepard was capable of selecting of his/her own free will.

I feel like you are trying to split hairs.  A solution to a goal is a goal in itself.

No. The Reapers existed to prevent synthetics wiping out organics. Fact. The Catalyst explained this. Not once did it or any of the Reapers state they wanted organics and synthetics to become one. Nor did they attempt to make this happen. This "solution" didn't even become apparent until the last 5 minutes of the game. It was never their goal. It was an option to end their need to exist anymore. It made the Reapers moot.

And a solution and goal are not the same at all. They're entirely different things, both in definition and concept.

The Reapers are beings created of synthesis.  That's how they reproduce.  They take the genetic structure of a species and add it to themselves.  Synthesis is exactly what creates husks and collectors.

[killage_wizard]

Sorry about the 2x post

[Seival]

killage_wizard wrote...

Seival wrote...

killage_wizard wrote...

Seival wrote...
BioWare just wanna please all players who prefers less thinking and more watching/listening. Also, they wanted to add an epilogue, remember? It was nice and constructive idea, suggested by fans. Epilogue will not affect the endings. They will remain the same. The only true problem right now is the Normandy Crash scene.

So the vast majority of people who hate the ending are idiots?  Because to me "players who prefer less thinking" is exactly what you imply by that statement.

Not at all. Vast majority of people who hate the endings just expected that the endings will be understandable automatically. They were ready to "play the game", but were not ready to "read the book".

Again with the implication that we are uncapable of understanding the ending.  Dues Ex Machina does not make a story "smart".

You are not uncapable, you are just don't want to.

Not all games should have those standard and 100% predictable hero-story-happy(sad) endings. It's great that Mass Effect Trilogy is unique.

[Ageless Face]

 OK, so I've watched the talk with the reaper on rannoch, just to be sure of this. The reaper is implying pretty much what the catalyst is saying. "You represent chaos, we represent order", "Without our intervention, organics are doomed", and more of this stuff. Just thought it should be mentioned. There is so much talk about the catalyst lying, when the reaper on rannoch is saying the same thing. 
So, another proof for ppl saying the catalyst is lying, or tricking us. Controlers are saved from failing and killing everybody!! Weepee! 

[killage_wizard]

HagarIshay wrote...

 OK, so I've watched the talk with the reaper on rannoch, just to be sure of this. The reaper is implying pretty much what the catalyst is saying. "You represent chaos, we represent order", "Without our intervention, organics are doomed", and more of this stuff. Just thought it should be mentioned. There is so much talk about the catalyst lying, when the reaper on rannoch is saying the same thing. 
So, another proof for ppl saying the catalyst is lying, or tricking us. Controlers are saved from failing and killing everybody!! Weepee! 

But the Reapers are the bad guys.  Are you saying by choosing control you will continue the cycle and commit genocide in order to prevent a tech singularity?  I would assume most who chose control would wish to stop the cycle.

[Jamie9]

killage_wizard wrote...

But the Reapers are the bad guys.  Are you saying by choosing control you will continue the cycle and commit genocide in order to prevent a tech singularity?  I would assume most who chose control would wish to stop the cycle.

If you wanted the Cycle to continue, wouldn't you just stand there and let the Reapers win? Or maybe you'd give up at Eden Prime.

[Taboo]

Mass Effect is not unique. It has buckled under the weight of it's own narrative.

This happens ALL THE TIME.

[The Angry One]

Seival wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

And how is a human going to impose their will onto thousands of these Reaper minds again without it backfiring horribly?

Mass Effect deserves better than space magic. Do you think this ending would've flown in ME1? Hell no. 

This is not a "space magic", this is "Deus Ex Machina" concept: "God From the Machine" is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object.

BioWare implemented DEM concept in ME3 just perfectly.

Hey. I'm going to spell this in block capitals so you understand this.

A DEUS EX MACHINA IS A BAD PLOT DEVICE. IT IS SOMETHING LOOKED DOWN ON IN LITERATURE. IT IS NOT A GOOD THING. IS BAD. NOT GOOD. TERRIBLE. THE OPPOSITE OF GOOD. NO ES BUENO.

Moreover, space magic is a form of Deus Ex Machina. I have to conclude you're trolling. This is the first time I've ever seen anyone PRAISE a writer for a DEM.

incinerator950 wrote...

Also, hi Angry.  How's your Line Admiral Volus and your 18th Century Turian Staff and Kwunu headcanon doing?

They're waiting for the battle they were supposed to fight.

Modifié par The Angry One, 01 juin 2012 - 04:22 .

[Taboo]

Yeah, even the Greeks weren't fond of Deus ex Machina's.

It's a contrivance.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 01 juin 2012 - 04:22 .

[Shallyah]

HagarIshay wrote...

 OK, so I've watched the talk with the reaper on rannoch, just to be sure of this. The reaper is implying pretty much what the catalyst is saying. "You represent chaos, we represent order", "Without our intervention, organics are doomed", and more of this stuff. Just thought it should be mentioned. There is so much talk about the catalyst lying, when the reaper on rannoch is saying the same thing. 
So, another proof for ppl saying the catalyst is lying, or tricking us. Controlers are saved from failing and killing everybody!! Weepee! 

So, I killed a man yesterday. I told to the police it was in self defense, to prevent that man from eventually killing other people. 

But they went to double check, and asked my son. My son then confirmed what I said.

They then got the proof they needed, and concluded that everything was alright. Because, in which unfathomable world would my son, which is under my direct control and influence, agree with me?
 
Everybody! Weepee!


No, seriously, I am having hard time to just use sarcasm.

Modifié par Shallyah, 01 juin 2012 - 04:27 .

[Seival]

killage_wizard wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

 OK, so I've watched the talk with the reaper on rannoch, just to be sure of this. The reaper is implying pretty much what the catalyst is saying. "You represent chaos, we represent order", "Without our intervention, organics are doomed", and more of this stuff. Just thought it should be mentioned. There is so much talk about the catalyst lying, when the reaper on rannoch is saying the same thing. 
So, another proof for ppl saying the catalyst is lying, or tricking us. Controlers are saved from failing and killing everybody!! Weepee! 

But the Reapers are the bad guys.  Are you saying by choosing control you will continue the cycle and commit genocide in order to prevent a tech singularity?  I would assume most who chose control would wish to stop the cycle.

Reapers are the "super-advanced-rocket-launchers". All their "thoughts" are just reflections of the current Catalist's way of thinking. If the Catalist is a "good guy", then the Reapers are "good guys" too.

[killage_wizard]

Neither did Nietzsche (full disclosure I wanted to sound smarter than I am so I looked that up on Wikipedia)