4520 réponses à ce sujet

[Jamie9]

Seival wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Seival wrote...

Games like Deus Ex: Human Revolution, and movies like Appleseed: Ex Machina suggest otherwise.

Are you going by the titles as if they justify the trope?
You're kidding, right? Tell me you're kidding.

Both mentioned titles use DEM concept and have a lot of fans... Deunan Knute might have even more fans than Shepard and Tali combined.

Human Revolution doesn't have a Deus Ex Machina.

[Taboo]

I don't have time for Ayn Rand.

It reminds me of Bioshock. MORE FOR ME.

ME. ME. ME. ME. ME.

[The Angry One]

Seival wrote...

Both mentioned titles use DEM concept and have a lot of fans... Deunan Knute might have even more fans than Shepard and Tali combined.

Aside from this not being true, they have a lot of fans?
Yeah? So does Mass Effect. Ever think they'd have fans in spite of this? DEM is not a good thing, it is looked down on as lazy writing, because it often nullifies the entire plot.

[Ageless Face]

Shallyah wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...


No. My Shepard will use the reapers to dispute conflicts, not find a solution for them. Only in the case the reapers will be out of control, then Shepard will handle the situation by bringing the reaper army to threating the synthetics. the geth and EDI already showed the emotion of fear. They are fearing the reapers. And they will fear them when a spooky gaint reaper will land on their planet to do a house inspection.

Neither the Geth or EDi seem very afraid of the Reapers in the game I played, to be honest. They were ready to die fighting them. In fact, I think the Geth were more afraid of Quarians, since they had to resort to joining the Reapers to have a chance for survival. Then they joined the allied fleets without a need to do so. The Reapers were after organics, not the Geth.

But they are. Legion said the heretics were afraid of dying. since the geth are nit different than each other- they are all the same race, if you can call it that. EDI confessed on earrh to Shepard she is afraid. Willing to die to stop the reapers, but they all still afraid. And in a different era, when there will be no war with the reapers, the synthetics, as much as organics, will be afraid.

[The Angry One]

HagarIshay wrote...

As for the geth... I believe there is a
possibity to control the reapers. The geth are not advanced enough to
understand and control the reapers. The catalyst and the crucible are
far more advanced than anything known in the galaxy.

The Catalyst can't even adapt to new concepts until they're literally shoved up it's behind. More advanced than the Geth?
Last I checked the Geth can actually adapt and learn.

Furthermore, these were Geth with Reaper code. Are you seriously saying that synthetics running on the Reaper's own codeare less able to comprehend Reaper thoughts than Shepard?
Crucible or not, it's still Shepard's mind required to dominate the Reapers? Remember what the Catalyst said? TIM can't control the Reapers, because the Reapers control him. If it was all up to the Crucible.. why would it matter? Obviously, the mind plays a huge role in this.

[Taboo]

The Catalyst is an AI that has been in a feedback loop for millions of years.

Big shocker here: He hasn't taken in any new data in that time because he doesn't let things develop to a point where Synthetics are even around for a period of time.

He's a machine with a cold, dignified purpose. He is responsible for well over two quintillion deaths and has never factored in any new information.

Daisy Bell dies when I shoot the pipe. No one should have that level of control, EVER.

[killage_wizard]

HagarIshay wrote...

killage_wizard wrote...


Even after he argued to TIM that humans weren't ready for that responsibility, and after the Geth flat out said it is impossible to interepret the mind of a Reaper?

First, whatever Shepard say is interpatated differently, because every person is playing Shepard differently. See it as a poor excuse, but that is the truth. You see it as Shepard not willing to go in TIM's way to control the reapers. I see Shepard telling TIM he can't control the reapers because it is not possible.

As for the geth... I believe there is a possibity to control the reapers. The geth are not advanced enough to understand and control the reapers. The catalyst and the crucible are far more advanced than anything known in the galaxy.

Umm are you agreeing with me because I see at as no one can control the Reapers.  Not even Shepard. 

[MegaSovereign]

I don't think Bioware meant for the Crucible/Catalyst to be a DEM. It could have just been executed really poorly...but I think the Crucible was intended to be just a plot device that represents your war assets (Construction and delivery of the crucible depends on EMS). And perhaps the Catalyst AI is suppose to be the narrator who tells you your choices.

If it truly was a DEM, it would just be some god-like force out of nowhere killing the Reapers and saving the day.

This is why I'm cautiously optimistic about the EC. I'm willing to bet the EC will give that extra context we need for the ending scenes and also show your war assets actually doing something.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 01 juin 2012 - 05:03 .

[Seival]

Jamie9 wrote...

Seival wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Seival wrote...

Games like Deus Ex: Human Revolution, and movies like Appleseed: Ex Machina suggest otherwise.

Are you going by the titles as if they justify the trope?
You're kidding, right? Tell me you're kidding.

Both mentioned titles use DEM concept and have a lot of fans... Deunan Knute might have even more fans than Shepard and Tali combined.

Human Revolution doesn't have a Deus Ex Machina.

It has, but not quite as good (in literature terms) as it should be. Endings were impossible without a "powerful outer intervention", but were quite predictable... It's one of the reasons why DE:HR will never be as good as ME Trilogy for me.

Modifié par Seival, 01 juin 2012 - 05:05 .

[Ageless Face]

The Angry One wrote...


The Catalyst can't even adapt to new concepts until they're literally shoved up it's behind. More advanced than the Geth?
Last I checked the Geth can actually adapt and learn.

Furthermore, these were Geth with Reaper code. Are you seriously saying that synthetics running on the Reaper's own codeare less able to comprehend Reaper thoughts than Shepard?
Crucible or not, it's still Shepard's mind required to dominate the Reapers? Remember what the Catalyst said? TIM can't control the Reapers, because the Reapers control him. If it was all up to the Crucible.. why would it matter? Obviously, the mind plays a huge role in this.

Emotionly and mindly, I would agree with you. The catalyst is very closed minded. However, his ibtelligent is far more advanced. If the reaper code was enough, The geth would have not already how to desroy the reapers far before the ending.

[Shallyah]

I think it's best to let all the delusional people think that a human brain can control the Reapers, all of them, for eternity. It doesn't matter if the Reaper datastream alone would fry the Geth consensus, or if a savant with a brain ten times bigger than Shepard (David Archer, Project Overlord) went mad by simply being connected to a machine that emulated 1/100000000000000 of a Reaper, and then tried to kill everyone.

No, because this is Shepard we're talking about! Hey hey ho! He'll turn the Reapers into the space cleaning service and they will bring breakfast in pink trays with sugar on top!

All that during billions of years, while keeping the little sanity he had remaining by the time he hit the Crucible!

Huzzah!

Modifié par Shallyah, 01 juin 2012 - 05:08 .

[MegaSovereign]

Shallyah wrote...

I think it's best to let all the delusional people think that a human brain can control the Reapers, all of them, for eternity. It doesn't matter if the Reaper datastream alone would fry the Geth consensus, or if a savant with a brain ten times bigger than Shepard (David Archer) went mad by simply being connected to a machine, and tried to kill everyone.

No, because this is Shepard we're talking about! Hey hey ho! He'll turn the Reapers into the space cleaning service and they will bring breakfast in pink trays with sugar on top!

All that during billions of years, while keeping the little sanity he had remaining by the time he hit the Crucible!

Huzzah!

Well after he controls the reapers, he's not really human anymore.

You could argue that he's become the new catalyst.

[Ageless Face]

killage_wizard wrote...


Umm are you agreeing with me because I see at as no one can control the Reapers.  Not even Shepard. 

If I would, I would not have chosen control, would I? TIM can't control the reapers because he did not have the right method. But it is possible to control the reapers. The catalyst is doing it. It can be done. And by our last piece of knowlage we are giving, the crucible can control as much as the catalyst.

[Jamie9]

Shallyah wrote...

I think it's best to let all the delusional people think that a human brain can control the Reapers, all of them, for eternity. It doesn't matter if the Reaper datastream alone would fry the Geth consensus, or if a savant with a brain ten times bigger than Shepard (David Archer) went mad by simply being connected to a machine, and tried to kill everyone.

No, because this is Shepard we're talking about! Hey hey ho! He'll turn the Reapers into the space cleaning service and they will bring breakfast in pink trays with sugar on top!

All that during billions of years, while keeping the little sanity he had remaining by the time he hit the Crucible!

Huzzah!

I don't think it should be possible given what we know before the Catalyst. It's bad writing, definitely that we can without explanation.

But taking into account writers' intent, and the ensuing cutscene afterwards, Shepard can control the Reapers. It doesn't make sense, but that's how the ending is at the moment.

Stop bringing sense into the ending damn it!

[Shallyah]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Shallyah wrote...

I think it's best to let all the delusional people think that a human brain can control the Reapers, all of them, for eternity. It doesn't matter if the Reaper datastream alone would fry the Geth consensus, or if a savant with a brain ten times bigger than Shepard (David Archer) went mad by simply being connected to a machine, and tried to kill everyone.

No, because this is Shepard we're talking about! Hey hey ho! He'll turn the Reapers into the space cleaning service and they will bring breakfast in pink trays with sugar on top!

All that during billions of years, while keeping the little sanity he had remaining by the time he hit the Crucible!

Huzzah!

Well after he controls the reapers, he's not really human anymore.

You could argue that he's become the new catalyst.

Aha! That's where I wanted you to go.


If he's not human anymore, then he is not Shepard anymore either.

So you're in for a new eternity of Cycles as soon as the new Catalyst realizes there is only one solution to chaos.

[M Hedonist]

Seival wrote...

It has, but not quite as good (in literature terms) as it should be. Endings were impossible without a "powerful outer intervention", but were quite predictable... That's why DE:HR will never be as good as ME Trilogy for me.

So, Eliza Cassan and her control over the world's news networks is the Deus Ex Machina? But that was already introduced halfway through the game. Just like her weird interest in Adam Jensen. Is it really a Deus Ex Machina if Zeus already shows himself to the protagonist in Act II and tells him he's his friend?
And are you honestly suggesting that a "predictable" Deus Ex Machina is worse than one that isn't hinted at prior to its reveal? A "predictable" Deus Ex Machina isn't even really a DEM in the first place.

Modifié par Sauruz, 01 juin 2012 - 05:12 .

[Jamie9]

Seival wrote...

It has, but not quite as good (in literature terms) as it should be. Endings were impossible without a "powerful outer intervention", but were quite predictable... It's one of the reasons why DE:HR will never be as good as ME Trilogy for me.

I... still don't see the DEM in Human Revolution. All 4 ending choices given there are clearly foreshadowed and represented throughout the game.

[Ageless Face]

Shallyah wrote...

I think it's best to let all the delusional people think that a human brain can control the Reapers, all of them, for eternity. It doesn't matter if the Reaper datastream alone would fry the Geth consensus, or if a savant with a brain ten times bigger than Shepard (David Archer, Project Overlord) went mad by simply being connected to a machine that emulated 1/100000000000000 of a Reaper, and then tried to kill everyone.

No, because this is Shepard we're talking about! Hey hey ho! He'll turn the Reapers into the space cleaning service and they will bring breakfast in pink trays with sugar on top!

All that during billions of years, while keeping the little sanity he had remaining by the time he hit the Crucible!

Huzzah!

We are giving you many reasons why it's possible. You don't want to believe it, thats fine. But dont insult us for thinking otherwise.

[MegaSovereign]

Shallyah wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Shallyah wrote...

I think it's best to let all the delusional people think that a human brain can control the Reapers, all of them, for eternity. It doesn't matter if the Reaper datastream alone would fry the Geth consensus, or if a savant with a brain ten times bigger than Shepard (David Archer) went mad by simply being connected to a machine, and tried to kill everyone.

No, because this is Shepard we're talking about! Hey hey ho! He'll turn the Reapers into the space cleaning service and they will bring breakfast in pink trays with sugar on top!

All that during billions of years, while keeping the little sanity he had remaining by the time he hit the Crucible!

Huzzah!

Well after he controls the reapers, he's not really human anymore.

You could argue that he's become the new catalyst.

Aha! That's where I wanted you to go.


If he's not human anymore, then he is not Shepard anymore either.

So you're in for a new eternity of Cycles as soon as the new Catalyst realizes there is only one solution to chaos.

That's headcanoning. There is no real reason to believe Shepard would come to the same conclusion and continue the cycle. The canon plot is that no matter what Shepard ends the reaper threat..

[Shallyah]

HagarIshay wrote...

Shallyah wrote...

I think it's best to let all the delusional people think that a human brain can control the Reapers, all of them, for eternity. It doesn't matter if the Reaper datastream alone would fry the Geth consensus, or if a savant with a brain ten times bigger than Shepard (David Archer, Project Overlord) went mad by simply being connected to a machine that emulated 1/100000000000000 of a Reaper, and then tried to kill everyone.

No, because this is Shepard we're talking about! Hey hey ho! He'll turn the Reapers into the space cleaning service and they will bring breakfast in pink trays with sugar on top!

All that during billions of years, while keeping the little sanity he had remaining by the time he hit the Crucible!

Huzzah!

We are giving you many reasons why it's possible. You don't want to believe it, thats fine. But dont insult us for thinking otherwise.

I think your reasons are ****** and take seven thousand leaps worth of assumptions, each one of them. You don't want to see it, that's fine. But don't think yourself smarter than us for thinking otherwise.

[The Angry One]

MegaSovereign wrote...

That's headcanoning. There is no real reason to believe Shepard would come to the same conclusion and continue the cycle. The canon plot is that no matter what Shepard ends the reaper threat..

Show, don't tell.

[ghost9191]

that just sounds like hell to me, being stuck in catalyst form. and shepard dies , basically becomes a ai or whatever so what is stopping him from thinking organics are lesser , he or it would surpass humans and whatnot so hey singularity . control does nothing but give a power to shepard that he should not have, well if he is paragon

[Shallyah]

MegaSovereign wrote...


That's headcanoning. There is no real reason to believe Shepard would come to the same conclusion and continue the cycle. The canon plot is that no matter what Shepard ends the reaper threat..

It's merely thinking reasonably given the precedents and the information we have. We know roughly the capacity of a human brain, a vague estimation of the volume of the Reaper datastream, and what happened to a person with a brain 10 times more developped than Shepard's when he tried to control machines.

You want to believe Shepard will become a god and will retain his full identity while remaining eternally in full control of the Reapers. That's cool. You can believe My Little Pony is based on real facts, too.

However you do not have any information to prove anything of what you "believe". The only headcanon here is yours.

Modifié par Shallyah, 01 juin 2012 - 05:21 .

[MegaSovereign]

The Angry One wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

That's headcanoning. There is no real reason to believe Shepard would come to the same conclusion and continue the cycle. The canon plot is that no matter what Shepard ends the reaper threat..

Show, don't tell.

Okay.

You can argue that the ending was executed terribly. That's a different argument.

[Ageless Face]

Shallyah wrote...


I think your reasons are ****** and take seven thousand leaps worth of assumptions, each one of them. You don't want to see it, that's fine. But don't think yourself smarter than us for thinking otherwise.

Have I said I am smarter than you? No. In fact, I don't believe I have ever said something to suggest that. I said we are giving you reasons, but you can still not believe them. But it seems you are constently critisizing about how low is our  intelligent. We are simply giving our opinions.

Modifié par HagarIshay, 01 juin 2012 - 05:22 .