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[Seival]

Seival wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

Seival wrote...

This is not a "space magic", this is "Deus Ex Machina" concept: "God From the Machine" is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object.

BioWare implemented DEM concept in ME3 just perfectly.

Since you seem to be more intelligent an insightful than the most of us, your knowledge of the game is incredibly deep and you're a fan of Deux Ex Machina, could you please explain me one thing?

'Cause y'know, something with the Starkid has always bothered me:

If the brat is really the Catalyst with superpowers and all:

(1) What was the purpose of Sovereign in ME1? Was he punished (he was quite the smarty-pants) and left behind?
I remind you that if the brat was always on the Citadel, he must also have had a very good overview of what happens in the Galaxy and its technological advancement. 
(2) Why a superpowerful AI/God/Troll/Whatever did let a bunch of Protheans hack the Keepers?
(3) Why couldn't he regain control over them, since he toys with the REAPERS?
(4) Why couldn't he activate the Relay himself (I mean the Citadel, that big Relay which always allowed the Reapers to launch their galactic lightning genocide war) and let his toys come in for the Big Party instead of letting them travel three years ?
(5) Were Harbinger and Sovereign (and all the other Reapers) schizos/mythomanes?


Thanks in advance.

(1) Nazara's purpose was to override the "signal-block-surprise" left by Protheans. The Catalist was not "on the Citadel"... The Citadel is a part of the Catalist.
(2) Protheans didn't "hack the Reapers". They jummed the some sort of signal that allowed the vanguard (in our case the Nazara) to use the Citadel's mass relay capabilities to open the way for invasion.
(3) Look at answer #2.
(4) Look at answer #2.
[b](5) Can you translate this question please?

... It looks like you didn't understand ME1 story. Or just forgotten it completely.

And one more thing... I didn't call anyone "foolish". I just said that anti-enders don't want even to try to understand ME Trilogy's final.

[Lord Goose]

All Catalyst-related plotholes (and many others) wouldn't have existed if they have used original story-line about Dark Matter and humans being only solution. I'm pretty sure that the Catalyst was last-ditch addition to the game, so it would have ending at all. Catalyst never existed in first games (the beings of light from ME1 are probably protheans).

[Uncle Jo]

HagarIshay wrote...


Hope you don't mind if I'll try to answer the questions.

1) The reaper was left behind. BioWare didn't know how to use soverigen, so they just left the conversation aside and figured no one would notice.

2) Becasue... the catalyst is not a god? He can't have control of everything. If he did then he would have stopped immediately TIM's experiment, or even better, know exactly where Shepard is, and he would have brought much more reapers to Tuchunka or Rannoch and kill him/her.

3)  I have no idea what do you mean by this question, so i'll leave that behind. 

-
 The Citadel as the relay was also seemed to be left behind. It could have been much easier for shepard to go to Ilos at the ending and go to the Citadel through the mu relay. However, that plot device was left behind, and so did the Citadel as a relay.
Or maybe the catalyst needs a reaper to help him to open the Citadel to let all the reapers pour shemelves into the galaxy. That would explain why sovereign tried to open the relay and the catalyst didn't do it alone. Combined forces, maybe?

4) Yep. Either that or they have a short memory. 

Or maybe... The catalyst only tell the true purpose of the reapers to the small ones, since he feels no threat from them. However, Harbinger and Sovereign seemed to to be independent when the small one on Rannoch seemed knowble about the catalyst's cause.Maybe the catalyst is fearing the big reapers more than the others, and made them think they are independent, yet they still follow his instructions even when they don't know it (that is obvously a speculation on my behalf. Don't take it as I know it's true in 100%).

Thanks for trying to answer my questions:

1) If I follow you, one of the best plot-twist of the game history and the unforgettable dialogue with one of the best villains were just an accident without further consequences.
Bioware are not just bad writers, they also think that the players have the brains of a squid and the memory of a goldfish. Cool.

2) Oh yeah, the brat is not a god and all and he can't anticipate everything. But if we take the ending at face value, the Citadel was part of him if I remember good? So he's powerful enough to control and maybe create the Reapers, but not able to keep mindless Keepers in his grasp. Makes sense.

3) I was referring to the Keepers. The Protheans had successfully overriden the signal that controls them, yet the Brat didn't have any clue of it? More, he knew about it, had 50,000 years to think about a solution, but eventually couldn't fix it?

4) You're not serious do you?
BTW the Destroyer on Rannoch told Shep, before it dies, "Harbinger speaks of you". So it doesn't seem to know that much about the Catalyst either. It also means that the Reapers are taking orders from him. I also remind you that the Reapers are fully sentient.

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 02 juin 2012 - 01:53 .

[Seival]

Lord Goose wrote...

All Catalyst-related plotholes (and many others) wouldn't have existed if they have used original story-line about Dark Matter and humans being only solution. I'm pretty sure that the Catalyst was last-ditch addition to the game, so it would have ending at all. Catalyst never existed in first games (the beings of light from ME1 are probably protheans).

I strongly believe that the only real plothole in ME Trilogy is Normandy crash scene in the very end of ME3. All other "plotholes" are just a product of players' confusion.

[Lord Goose]

No, ''if Catalyst was the Citadel and was controlling the Reapers, why would he let Protheans meddle with his plans?'' is legitimate concern.

It could be explained waht Catalyst just doesn't care about how exactly Reapers would act, and how much hardships they have to overcome. I found that explanation convincing.

[Jamie9]

Lord Goose wrote...

No, ''if Catalyst was the Citadel and was controlling the Reapers, why would he let Protheans meddle with his plans?'' is legitimate concern.

It could be explained waht Catalyst just doesn't care about how exactly Reapers would act, and how much hardships they have to overcome. I found that explanation convincing.

We know the Protheans installed a virus of sorts (Vigil tells us), so perhaps it was just a really complex code that multiplies very quickly, destroying all other code. The Catalyst would then have to seal itself off from that part, and it's control would be disabled. This makes sense, right?

[Uncle Jo]

Seival wrote...




(1) Nazara's purpose was to override the "signal-block-surprise" left by Protheans. The Catalist was not "on the Citadel"... The Citadel is a part of the Catalist.
(2) Protheans didn't "hack the Reapers". They jummed the some sort of signal that allowed the vanguard (in our case the Nazara) to use the Citadel's mass relay capabilities to open the way for invasion.
(3) Look at answer #2.
(4) Look at answer #2.
(5) Can you translate this question please?

... It looks like you didn't understand ME1 story. Or just forgotten it completely.

1) "Confidence borns of ignorance". Sovereign's role as vanguard was to assess the progress of the organic life and then send a signal to the keepers to activate the Citadel thus launching the Reaper's invasion, if it was about time to harvest. Because something went wrong (the Protheans modifying the Keepers signal to only respond to the Citadel's) he had to activate the Relay himself, thus searching for allies (Geth heretics and Saren) to successfully achieve his goal. And failed.
So what was doing the Brat the whole time? Taking a nap? Watching "Transformers" on the TV? Doing his homework for the school?
You're fuelling my own argumentation. If the Citadel is a part of the Space Troll, I can reasonably suppose that he controls it, so how come he couldn't activate it?

2) You misread my question. I said the Protheans hacked the Keepers not the Reapers. Try again later.

3) Look at answer 2)

4) Look at answer2)

5) Mythomania: behavior of habitual or compulsive lying.
 Schizophrenia: breakdown of thought process with hallucinations, paranoid and bizarre delusions, disorganized speech and thinking .

- "You are bacterias"
- "You're nothing"
- "I'm the Harbinger of your ascension"
- "Synthetics will always wipe out organics"

I would also add dissociative identity disorder : 

- "We are each a nation, independent, free of all weaknesses" (Sovereign)
- "I am Sovereign. And this station (the Citadel) is mine!"
- "We are the pinnacle of the evolution"
- "The forces of the Universe bend to me" (Harbinger)

EDIT: It looks like your logic is not only flawed but you also sound incredibly arrogant. All your posts prove it. A real pleasure to debate with you.

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 02 juin 2012 - 02:03 .

[Ageless Face]

Uncle Jo wrote...


Thanks for trying to answer my questions:

1) If I follow you, one of the best plot-twist of the game history and the unforgettable dialogue with one of the best villains were just an accident without further consequences.
Bioware are not just bad writers, they also think that the players have the brains of a squid and the memory of a goldfish. Cool.

2) Oh yeah, the brat is not a god and all and he can't anticipate everything. But if we take the ending at face value, the Citadel was part of him if I remember good? So he's powerful enough to control and maybe create the Reapers, but not able to keep mindless Keepers in his grasp. Makes sense.

3) I was referring to the Keepers. The Protheans had successfully overriden the signal that controls them, yet the Brat didn't have any clue of it? More, he knew about it, had 50,000 years to think about a solution, but eventually couldn't fix it?

4) You're not serious do you?
BTW the Destroyer on Rannoch told Shep, before it dies, "Harbinger speaks about you". So it doesn't seem to know that much about the Catalyst either. It also means that the Reapers are taking orders from him. i also remind you that the Reapers are fully sentient.

1. Unfourtently, it seems so. Just a moment ago I've read a thread about the writers of the ME comics thinking the geth were built "thousends of years ago" by the quarians, not, like, only 3 hundred yeares ago. It really seems like the writers forgot everything from what we were told from the previous games. Oh, and quarian's blood is purple now, not red.

2. Well, the keepers are difficult to control. Vigil said so himself. The catalyst can't inticipate what they will do, just like he can't inticipate what Shepard will do. The keepers cannot be hacked or something. However, the reapers can, becuase they are synthetic lives. It's easier for the catalyst to control them, like how the reapers could control the geth.

3. I think, like I said, the protheans were organics, so the catalyst cannot really understand their thinking. Maybe he didn't know they did it? And if he knew, he thought it was irrelevent, since (almost) all the protheans died anyway.

4. HEY! I thought about this theory more than BioWare thought about Harbinger/ Sovereign... Yeah, but your'e right. It is kind of stupid.

The only thing I can think of beyond my theory is that maybe not ALL the reapers are sentient, or at least not fully sentient. Sovereign and Harbinger are more independendents since they are fully senient,. They both- especially Harbinger- seemed to be very arrogant towards Shepard. And even they didn't seem to know emotions as an organic, which is a part of sentience, no? However, the reaper on Rannoch pretty much quote the catalyst, even without speaking of him. I guess if he did it would have "ruined the surprise" or something of the catalyst being the reaper controller. But anyway, the reaper on rannoch didn't seem to have any thinking to himself beyond the catalyst's teaching, wether he knew about him and his cause or not. And if he had no thinking of it's own, when Harbinger and Soverign surley showed us otherwise, that they are fully aware of themslves... Then, Like I said, Not all of the reapers are built in the same way, not all of them are fully aware of themselves and of emotions (I know it's also stupid, but it's more than we've got. Anything can be true right now).


*Sigh* Tell you the truth, I simply don't believe there was much thinking into Harby/Sovereign. all I'm doing here is speculating on nothing. But it's fun... So I'll continue doing it.

Modifié par HagarIshay, 02 juin 2012 - 02:21 .

[Jamie9]

@HagarIshay

We actually know that certain Reapers aren't sentient. From the Wiki:

"Other subtypes of Reapers include Troop Transports and Processors, both of which lack sentience and are instead remotely controlled by other Reapers. Troop Transports vary in length between 200 meters and one kilometer and are used to transport Husks to unconquered worlds and bring victims to Reaper processing centers. Processors are mobile centers for mass DNA harvesting."

So perhaps the Destroyers aren't sentient, though I initially thought they were.

[Ageless Face]

Jamie9 wrote...

@HagarIshay

We actually know that certain Reapers aren't sentient. From the Wiki:

"Other subtypes of Reapers include Troop Transports and Processors, both of which lack sentience and are instead remotely controlled by other Reapers. Troop Transports vary in length between 200 meters and one kilometer and are used to transport Husks to unconquered worlds and bring victims to Reaper processing centers. Processors are mobile centers for mass DNA harvesting."

So perhaps the Destroyers aren't sentient, though I initially thought they were.

EDIT: Hmm, so... I was right?

Wow. I'm... quite proud of myself. didn't even look at the codex when I made that up. 

Modifié par HagarIshay, 02 juin 2012 - 02:19 .

[Jamie9]

HagarIshay wrote...

EDIT: Hmm, so... I was right?

Wow. I'm... quite proud of myself. didn't even look at the codex when I made that up. 

Don't underestimate yourself!

If you speculate 5 theories, one is bound to be absolutely correct.

[Ageless Face]

Jamie9 wrote...

Don't underestimate yourself!

If you speculate 5 theories, one is bound to be absolutely correct.

If you speculate so much on the same thing, then something is obviously wrong 


.....

[Uncle Jo]

HagarIshay wrote...



1. Unfourtently, it seems so. Just a moment ago I've read a thread about the writers of the ME comics thinking the geth were built "thousends of years ago" by the quarians, not, like, only 3 hundred yeares ago. It really seems like the writers forgot everything from what we were told from the previous games. Oh, and quarian's blood is purple now, not red.

2. Well, the keepers are difficult to control. Vigil said so himself. The catalyst can't inticipate what they will do, just like he can't inticipate what Shepard will do. The keepers cannot be hacked or something. However, the reapers can, becuase they are synthetic lives. It's easier for the catalyst to control them, like how the reapers could control the geth.

3. I think, like I said, the protheans were organics, so the catalyst cannot really understand their thinking. Maybe he didn't know they did it? And if he knew, he thought it was irrelevent, since (almost) all the protheans died anyway.

4. HEY! I thought about this theory more than BioWare thought about Harbinger/ Sovereign... Yeah, but your'e right. It is kind of stupid.

The only thing I can think of beyond my theory is that maybe not ALL the reapers are sentient. Sovereign and Harbinger are more independendents since they are senient, or at least not fully sentient. They both- especially Harbinger- seemed to be very arrogant towards Shepard. And even they didn't seem to know enotions, which is a part of sentience, no? However, the reaper on Rannoch pretty much quote the catalyst, even without speaking of him. I guess if he did it would have "ruined the surprise" or something of the catalyst being the reaper controller. But anyway, the reaper on rannoch didn't seem to have any thinking to himself beyond the catalyst's teaching, wether he knew about him and his cause or not. And if he had no thinking of it's own, when Harbinger and Soverign surley showed us otherwise, that they are fully aware of themslves... Then, Like I said, Not all of the reapers are built in the same way, not all of them are fully aware of themselves and of emotions (I know it's also stupid, but it's more than we've got. Anything can be true right now).


*Sigh* Tell you the truth, I simply don't believe there was much thinking into Harby/Sovereign. all I'm doing here is speculating on nothing. But it's fun... So I'll continue doing it.

1) The "BW are just bad writers" doesn't make much sense to me. If we come to this, I'd advice, we let this point be.

2)The Keepers are more difficult to control than the Reapers???? The Reapers are partly organics you know? Billions of minds which are "preserved" in the gestalt of consciousness of the Reaper.

3) Sorry but I'm not with you. If I mess with your arm or your foot, you sure are gonna feel it, do you? You'll try to prevent it at least. Yet the most powerful and intelligent being of the galaxy doesn't have a clue of how the Keepers or the organics think and come then with his "synthetics will always blahblahblah" ? He didn't even know that some Protheans played with his Keepers? Come on...

4) Being sentient means you're aware of your own existence, allowing you to apprehend the world surrounding you. Husks, Cannibals, Banshees, Brutes aren't sentient. Transport troops and Processors are just machines. The other Reapers are sentient. I'll never buy that someone as Sovereign or Harbinger never knew that they were manipulated for more than 1 billion of years. It's completely absurd.
As much as making your archenemy in the three games looks like a mindless puppet.

It would be as if I tell you that Sauron and the Nazgul are actually working (or enslaved) for some dwarf who lived not far away from the Shire.

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 02 juin 2012 - 03:00 .

[Jamie9]

Uncle Jo wrote...
1) The "BW are just bad writers" doesn't make much sense to me. If we come to this, I'd advice, we let this point be.

Why is this so hard to believe? BioWare has always been terrible at continuity. Dragon Age has the same problems. The games don't keep the same canon, there are constantly "retcons" and just instances where they plain ignore things that have happened before.

Mass Effect is just as bad as Dragon Age for continuity.

[Uncle Jo]

Jamie9 wrote...

Why is this so hard to believe? BioWare has always been terrible at continuity. Dragon Age has the same problems. The games don't keep the same canon, there are constantly "retcons" and just instances where they plain ignore things that have happened before.

Mass Effect is just as bad as Dragon Age for continuity.

I said exactly in the post you're quoting that I don't want to argue about the bad writing. I'm fully aware that they're plenty of retconing for different reasons : lack of time, impossibility to implement all the consequences of the choices for every player... (the Rachni Queen,Wrex/Wreav, Legion/Geth VI).

I can (with some efforts) oversee it.

But retconing the archenemy of the game ???? If the ending is taken at face value, it's not just bad writing, it's suicide. Or do you think that the writers/devs are simply dumb?

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 02 juin 2012 - 03:17 .

[Jamie9]

Uncle Jo wrote...
I said exactly in the post you're quoting that I don't want to argue about the bad writing. I'm fully aware that they're plenty of retconing for different reasons : lack of time, impossibility to implement all the consequences of the choices for every player... (the Rachni Queen,Wrex/Wreav, Legion/Geth VI).

I can (with some efforts) oversee it.

But retconing the archenemy of the game ???? If the ending is taken at face value, it's not just bad writing, it's suicide. Or do you think that the writers/devs are simply dumb?

No, I don't think they're dumb, that would be rather arrogant of me. I'm sure they must be at least somewhat skilled at writing considering the position that they're in.

I don't think they intended to retcon the Reapers (I consider the archenemy to be Cerberus), but the Catalyst scene being so lacking of depth causes so many problems stretching all the way back to ME1.

It causes us to question the Reaper's sentience, and we are never given an answer to it. So we simply don't know if they are actually sentient anymore. The writers do, and hopefully the Extended Cut will let us know.

I'm glad you can overlook it, and so can I when I'm playing it (or I wouldn't play it). I'm putting all my hopes into the Extended Cut box now.

[Lord Goose]

1) The "BW are just bad writers" doesn't make much sense to me. If we come to this, I'd advice, we let this point be.

They're not bad, they were just desperate. You see, they have ended up in a very difficult situation.

As you may know, the changed the script after Drew Carpyshyn went into different project.

"The Reapers' goal was to find a way to stop the spread of Dark Energy which would eventually consume everything. That's why there was so much foreshadowing about Dark Energy in ME2.

The Reapers as a whole were 'nations' of people who had fused together in the most horrific way possible to help find a way to stop the spread of the Dark Energy. The real reason for the Human Reaper was supposed to be the Reapers saving throw because they had run out of time. Humanity in Mass Effect is supposedly unique because of it's genetic diversity and represented the universe's best chance at stopping Dark Energy's spread.

The original final choice was going to be "Kill the Reapers and put your faith in the races of the galaxy in finding another way to stop the spread with what little time is left" or "Sacrifice humanity, allowing them to be horrifically processed in hopes that the end result will justify the means."

So, no Catalyst, no organic vs synthetics problem. Probably the whole ending scene should be different, so no Harbringer attacking you etc, etc, etc. I repeat, no ending plotholes.

Even Indoctrination Theory could work better, since, you know, in one of the endings Shepard will allow Reapers to harvest humanity. 

As you can see, what plot made much more sense, than that we have now. It was foreshadowed at least three times before ME3:

1. During Mordin's recruitment mission, it was stated what humanity has unique genetic potential.
2. During Tali's recruitment mission we heard about star dying much faster than it should.
3. We also have lines about Reapers bragging about how humanity is just better than any other species (althought I'm not sure from where those lines come from). Krogan are wasted potential because of genophage, turians are primitives, salarians are short-lived and asari need other species to avoid Ardat-Yakshi.

This plot also devoid of really stupid contradiction to what happening in the game. So-called organic vs synthetics problem is just can't be convincing because we know that not only the geth were victims to quarians and their rebellion was act of self-defense, but also know what it is possible to establish peace and symbiosis between them (however, what's sort of foreshadowing of Synthesis? I don't know).

The plot was changed after Drew Carphyshyn was reassigned to different project. As far as I know in happened in the last months of 2012. So, Bioware only had about half of an year to radically change the plot. I still find their solution cheap, but at very least I understand what it is due to time limitations.

Also, Reapers motivation is not as far-fetched as you may think. According to Twitter, Catalyst was meant to be "being of light". They're mentioned in the description of planet Klencory.

http://masseffect.wi...m/wiki/Klencory

Pay attention that ME3 description says: "In all likelihood, they will be obliterated by the molten metal of a Reaper orbital bombardment, on its way to somewhere important".

So, where IS something on Klencory. Also, beings of light are supposed to protect organics from "machine devils" and, as you know, Reapers - tools of beings of light - are "your salvation through destruction".

Personally, I'm thinking that Bioware were just gasping at straw. I think it was pretty clear that Klencroy had something Prothean (visions are usually associated with Prothean devices).


So, yeah. Current ending is bad due to lack of time/ideas. For example, even Control (which I choose) is clearly has only one advantage - it allows less sacrifices without some shaggy union between organics and synthetics.

Modifié par Lord Goose, 02 juin 2012 - 04:04 .

[Uncle Jo]

Jamie9 wrote...


No, I don't think they're dumb, that would be rather arrogant of me. I'm sure they must be at least somewhat skilled at writing considering the position that they're in.

I don't think they intended to retcon the Reapers (I consider the archenemy to be Cerberus), but the Catalyst scene being so lacking of depth causes so many problems stretching all the way back to ME1.

It causes us to question the Reaper's sentience, and we are never given an answer to it. So we simply don't know if they are actually sentient anymore. The writers do, and hopefully the Extended Cut will let us know.

I'm glad you can overlook it, and so can I when I'm playing it (or I wouldn't play it). I'm putting all my hopes into the Extended Cut box now.

Cerberus is a pain in the ass, the rogue faction, the dark side of the humanity, not the archenemy (TIM is one of my favourite characters though).
The whole game was about the Reapers, the most formidable threat the galaxy's ever known. They're are an abomination. Knowing them hanging around in the galaxy is enough to never let anyone sleep good.

I know I'm off-topic for while, but if I have to take a decision that is going to affect the fate of the entire galaxy, I must at least understand what are the options, who's giving them to me.
As you said we don't know anything about the brat, we can only assume or speculate. Till the EC no one will be right or wrong.
But I find it somehow strange that Shep would choose Control 5 minutes after his whole conversation with TIM.

The Brat : Or you think you can control us?
Shep: So the Illusive man was right... Okay let's do it.
The Brat: But you just said to him, that no one deserve so much power, that you're not wanting to bet the fate of humanity on it and all?
Shep: Oh that... I've changed my mind... Trolololol ! So, where are the rods?

[Lord Goose]

But I find it somehow strange that Shep would choose Control 5 minutes after his whole conversation with TIM.

Illusive Man was advocating control only to make humanity dominant species of the Galaxy.
While in the end Control is only preferable because:
a) Unlike than in Destroy you don't have to sacrifice your allies.
Unlike than in Synthesis, you don't have to force your decision of far-fetched problem on the whole Galaxy.

[Jamie9]

Uncle Jo wrote...

Cerberus is a pain in the ass, the rogue faction, the dark side of the humanity, not the archenemy (TIM is one of my favourite characters though).
The whole game was about the Reapers, the most formidable threat the galaxy's ever known. They're are an abomination. Knowing them hanging around in the galaxy is enough to never let anyone sleep good.

I know I'm off-topic for while, but if I have to take a decision that is going to affect the fate of the entire galaxy, I must at least understand what are the options, who's giving them to me.
As you said we don't know anything about the brat, we can only assume or speculate. Till the EC no one will be right or wrong.
But I find it somehow strange that Shep would choose Control 5 minutes after his whole conversation with TIM.

The Brat : Or you think you can control us?
Shep: So the Illusive man was right... Okay let's do it.
The Brat: But you just said to him, that no one deserve so much power, that you're not wanting to bet the fate of humanity on it and all?
Shep: Oh that... I've changed my mind... Trolololol ! So, where are the rods?

The Reapers were definitely intended to be the main enemy, but Cerberus sort of took the spotlight if you ask me. They have a space armada as a result of them indoctrinating entire planets, have the same amount of appearances on Priority planets as Reaper forces, and are effectively the final obstacle to the protagonist, Shepard. Once you beat TIM on the Citadel, you've effectively won.

The way Control was executed was indeed very poor and badly timed. Using writers' intent, I can theorise that they intended the Control of the Crucible to be very different than the Control that TIM suggested.

The game can even make a point that TIM would never choose control, because he's indoctrinated.

In my opinion, BioWare shouldn't have used the flashbacks of Anderson and TIM, because it sends mixed messages compared to what everything else is telling you. Many people will see Anderson, and pick Destroy. Yet Anderson has always been slightly prejudice against AI (a fact many probably aren't aware of - it's spoken of a lot more in the novels).

They need to better present the three options. And that's pretty much confirmed for the Extended Cut.

[Lord Goose]

I think the should make a Klencory mission, so we could knew more about beings of light. Personally, i think about them as ancient analogue of quarins, who were nearly wiped out by their "slave race", and was so scared that they devoted all their knowledge to create Reapers.

[Uncle Jo]

Lord Goose wrote...

But I find it somehow strange that Shep would choose Control 5 minutes after his whole conversation with TIM.

Illusive Man was advocating control only to make humanity dominant species of the Galaxy.
While in the end Control is only preferable because:
a) Unlike than in Destroy you don't have to sacrifice your allies.
Unlike than in Synthesis, you don't have to force your decision of far-fetched problem on the whole Galaxy.

No. The whole point was about the concentration of an incredible power in the hands of one person. A mere human in this case. And Shepard was never fond of this option. Never. As well as his/her Allies.

The control option was always foreshadowed as bad option all along Shep's journey. It was always advocated by insane, megalomaniac and/or indoctrinated persons (TIM, Prothean rogue factions and probably others in the previous cycles). Yet comes the genocidal Brat and after 5 minutes chit-chat, you want me to believe him?

He even gave you a warning :"Or do you think you can control us" (very nice of him btw) and made also a little pause before saying "Yes" to Shep's question : "But the Reapers will obey me ?"
I won't talk about the Synthesis option, since it's for me the way to achieve quickly what the Reapers always wanted. If someone wants to play the mad scientist with the entire Galaxy, it's their problem.

I don't believe a single word of the Troll and that's the most important point. I'll never buy the reason of his pre-emptive genocides. Remember what EDI said? "The Reapers are repulsive. They only think of their self-preservation"
Even if I'm wrong, with destroy at least I know that the Reapers are history.


EDIT: The dark energy scenario was indeed "on the table" but then dropped a long time ago as D. Karpyshyn himself stated it. The Crucible appears to use dark energy, it's the only thing left.

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 02 juin 2012 - 04:39 .

[Lord Goose]

No. The whole point was about the concentration of an incredible power in the hands of one person. A mere human in this case. And Shepard was never fond of this option

As you can see, Illusive Man is outright that he is doing it for the sake of human race. He compares Reapers to the Mass Relay Network, says that it is the way of evolution etc.

And Shepard objects to the idea that humanity in general is no ready ('we're are not ready").

I don't believe a single word of the Troll and that's the most important point. I'll never buy the reason of his pre-emptive genocides. Remember what EDI said? "The Reapers are repulsive. They only think of their self-preservation".

They think only of their self-preservation and you think that Catalyst (their avatar, right?) just going to let you to finish them all?

As I said, ANY ending would work only if the Catalyst is not lying.

Modifié par Lord Goose, 02 juin 2012 - 04:41 .

[Lord Goose]

The control option was always foreshadowed as bad option all along Shep's journey.

Why everybody are so quick to dissmiss the Horizon?

Henry Lawson discovered something that made Reapers launch a preemptive strike against his facility. That has to mean something.

[Ageless Face]

Uncle Jo wrote...

1) The "BW are just bad writers" doesn't make much sense to me. If we come to this, I'd advice, we let this point be.

2)The Keepers are more difficult to control than the Reapers???? The Reapers are partly organics you know? Billions of minds which are "preserved" in the gestalt of consciousness of the Reaper.

3) Sorry but I'm not with you. If I mess with your arm or your foot, you sure are gonna feel it, do you? You'll try to prevent it at least. Yet the most powerful and intelligent being of the galaxy doesn't have a clue of how the Keepers or the organics think and come then with his "synthetics will always blahblahblah" ? He didn't even know that some Protheans played with his Keepers? Come on...

4) Being sentient means you're aware of your own existence, allowing you to apprehend the world surrounding you. Husks, Cannibals, Banshees, Brutes aren't sentient. Transport troops and Processors are just machines. The other Reapers are sentient. I'll never buy that someone as Sovereign or Harbinger never knew that they were manipulated for more than 1 billion of years. It's completely absurd.
As much as making your archenemy in the three games looks like a mindless puppet.

It would be as if I tell you that Sauron and the Nazgul are actually working (or enslaved) for some dwarf who lived not far away from the Shire.

2.+3. The reapers are synthetics. they have their goals set when they are built. When their creator is the one who is giving them their purpose, then he will sure know how to precive them, even when others won't. that is becasue their purpose will never change, as long as they at the beeding of their creator and controller. Organics, however, are not so simple. They have no clear purpose. They are not easy to comprehand. Even we as organics and humans cannot completley undertand each other.That also why the catalyst is doing wat he is doing. He cannot understand what is right and wrong by organics. He see killing us as saving us, while we see it as crayziness.

EDIT: BTW Even if the repaers have organic's genetic meterial to them, they are still synthetics.

3. That is why I said I think the catalyst did not think the prtheans and the keepers were relevant for him at the time. He knew there was nothing to worry about. His reapers were obviously going to win and he knew it. But he was not going to make the same mistake again and try and use organics.

4. If not all the reapers are sentient, the catalyst can control them without them being a problem to him. They are pure tools. However, the sentients are more difficult. They are self aware of themsleves. That is making them more powerfull, but at the same time also placing the catalyst in a difficult position of being threaten. So, in that case, the catalyst could have done two things:

A. Letting the sentient believe they are the masters of themselves. While not freeing them from their duty, he is givng them an illusion of freedom which is powerfull enough to make them think they are independent.

B. The sentients are independent, yet they still have duties for the catayst. The best example for this is Legion. While he had his duties for his people and purpese to help them, he still had his own mind, or sort of. He has a clear duty, yet it does not stop him from havin emotions, if you want to call it that. My bbet is that the sentient reapers are simmilar in that aspect.

Modifié par HagarIshay, 02 juin 2012 - 04:57 .