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[JA Shepard]

HagarIshay wrote...

LOL am I the only one that thought the choices were actually a good thing about the ending? I mean, if synthesis and control will get more explanation, and destroy will get more closure with Shepard, not a so open breath scene, and then the choices will actually be great. At least I think so...

There is not a good way to end a war. And Shepard needs to make the final choice to end it. The reapers cannot be defeted and then have a happy ending.

We needed a conclution that will get the galaxy into it's new shape more than what we got. Summerize all the game into three choices was a bad call. But I believe the choices still needed to take place. If not, then ending the war will only be in lethal force. And the reapers cannot be defeted in this way.

And maybe it's also because I like the concept bittersweet endings...

It took a while but I eventually came around to believing that the choices were the one good thing about the ending. They are gutwrenching, but that's what makes them so good imo. In my playthrough, Shepard witnessed incredible acts of selflessness and heroism, and didn't have to give up anything. I got through pretty unscathed. The end is where the you have a chance to live up to what Mordin or Legion did. Even Garrus leaving Palaven while it was practically on fire so he could help Shepard save Earth showed such incredible loyalty and faith in Shepard that I really didn't think Shep could do anything to justify it. In hindsight, having her practically sell her soul to save everyone was the right move. It's a sacrifice on the scale of the battle you are fighting.

As much as I raged at BW for giving us those three choices, I gladly retract any harsh words about that part, and hope that they fix the other parts in the EC. 

[CroGamer002]

I think it's pointless to argue which ending is Paragon or Renegade.


It's hugely debatable which choice in Legion loyalty mission is an actual Paragon or Renegade choice( even though both choices are marked as either Paragon and Renegade), so there's no point.

Both choices have lot of Paragon and Renegade in it.

Which one is more Paragon or Renegade is matter of opinion.


So yeah, if anything we should debate which ending is more Paragade or Renegon.

[Lord Goose]

For example, paragon cannot sacrifice allies, if he has choice, while Renegade should sacrifice them for the sake of the better results.

[Seival]

Lizardviking wrote...

Seival wrote...
Reading more and more posts like this really make me believe that BioWare writers are not just good... They are best of the best

No offence but I can respect you liking the concepts behind the endings, but don't please pretend that the writing is any good and that it is simply too clever for most people.

I'm sorry... I'm not trying to insult anyone here. I just really think that the writing was great.

[Seival]

JA Shepard wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

LOL am I the only one that thought the choices were actually a good thing about the ending? I mean, if synthesis and control will get more explanation, and destroy will get more closure with Shepard, not a so open breath scene, and then the choices will actually be great. At least I think so...

There is not a good way to end a war. And Shepard needs to make the final choice to end it. The reapers cannot be defeted and then have a happy ending.

We needed a conclution that will get the galaxy into it's new shape more than what we got. Summerize all the game into three choices was a bad call. But I believe the choices still needed to take place. If not, then ending the war will only be in lethal force. And the reapers cannot be defeted in this way.

And maybe it's also because I like the concept bittersweet endings...

It took a while but I eventually came around to believing that the choices were the one good thing about the ending. They are gutwrenching, but that's what makes them so good imo. In my playthrough, Shepard witnessed incredible acts of selflessness and heroism, and didn't have to give up anything. I got through pretty unscathed. The end is where the you have a chance to live up to what Mordin or Legion did. Even Garrus leaving Palaven while it was practically on fire so he could help Shepard save Earth showed such incredible loyalty and faith in Shepard that I really didn't think Shep could do anything to justify it. In hindsight, having her practically sell her soul to save everyone was the right move. It's a sacrifice on the scale of the battle you are fighting.

As much as I raged at BW for giving us those three choices, I gladly retract any harsh words about that part, and hope that they fix the other parts in the EC. 

It's good to see more and more understanding. Thanks for the support

[LiarasShield]

HagarIshay wrote...

LOL am I the only one that thought the choices were actually a good thing about the ending? I mean, if synthesis and control will get more explanation, and destroy will get more closure with Shepard, not a so open breath scene, and then the choices will actually be great. At least I think so...

There is not a good way to end a war. And Shepard needs to make the final choice to end it. The reapers cannot be defeted and then have a happy ending.

We needed a conclution that will get the galaxy into it's new shape more than what we got. Summerize all the game into three choices was a bad call. But I believe the choices still needed to take place. If not, then ending the war will only be in lethal force. And the reapers cannot be defeted in this way.



And maybe I also like the final choices because I like the concept bittersweet endings. And all the choices had it in some sort of way.

Yet mass effect 1 and 2 have proven otherwise the true destruction of player choice is what the problem is

And The collector base is a prime example depending on what you wanted and did everybody could live or die

I honestly think that people who wanted a sad sacrificial ending could choose that but the ones who wanted to beat the reapers and rebuild the galaxy with love interest be a option as well

This series as a whole has been about choices and options mattering I still feel that if the choices you make and the forces you gather true influence the ending or give you truely new ending options where people who want a happy ending can have one while people who want a sad ending can get one to


It also destroys the point of the moral meter for paragon or renegade what is the point of being either one in the final game if nothing really changes for either one?

[LiarasShield]

I just don't see why either side has to lose espically when I've looked at the polls wether cliche or not I don't think alot of fans play a game to either ultimately lose or be truely depressed I don't think that is the main reason we play video games I think the complete opposite of that we play video games so that either we won't be bored or we don't have to just be sad or upset about real life

[LiarasShield]

Also one more thing about this the reapers could be defeated we destroyed soverign we destroyed the human reaper on the collector base we destroyed a reaper on rannoch

The reapers aren't invincible even in the codex it says that they can be destroyed and the fire power of the thanix can destroy a reaper or a collector ship so yes the reapers can truely be defeated shepard and the other forces already proved that they can be

[Seival]

...It's interesting to hear some modern songs... Some of them have interesting ideas, or even analogies.

Correct me if I'm wrong (english is not my main language, so I might miss something in complicated foreign songs), but it looks like the Catalist and Daedalian Ending Concepts had its "official song" all this time:

 

Lyrics:

Feel the things I do
I transfer my dreams to you
a journey through your mind
logical explanations hard to find
develop your own identity
to get back into reality
feel your dreams come true
I will become a part of you.

I wish you could get
the false of hate and regret
I wish you could see
the truth inside of me.

Remember all the things you did
more strange feelings hard to hit
frightening memories of a kind
another journey through your mind.

Can't you hold my hands,
become much more like friends
I open up my arms for you
just a tiny small thing to do.

I wish you could get
the false of hate and regret
I wish you could see
the truth inside of me.

Modifié par Seival, 08 juin 2012 - 05:19 .

[CroGamer002]

LiarasShield wrote...

Also one more thing about this the reapers could be defeated we destroyed soverign we destroyed the human reaper on the collector base we destroyed a reaper on rannoch

The reapers aren't invincible even in the codex it says that they can be destroyed and the fire power of the thanix can destroy a reaper or a collector ship so yes the reapers can truely be defeated shepard and the other forces already proved that they can be

Where?

[Seival]

LiarasShield wrote...

Also one more thing about this the reapers could be defeated we destroyed soverign we destroyed the human reaper on the collector base we destroyed a reaper on rannoch

The reapers aren't invincible even in the codex it says that they can be destroyed and the fire power of the thanix can destroy a reaper or a collector ship so yes the reapers can truely be defeated shepard and the other forces already proved that they can be

The game clearly states that the Reapers are unstoppable. United Fleet couldn't deal any real damage to them, even if the Fleet was 100 times larger. So the fleet was used in the most logical way - provide a distraction, so Shepard's work will become much easier.

[Seival]

LiarasShield wrote...

I just don't see why either side has to lose espically when I've looked at the polls wether cliche or not I don't think alot of fans play a game to either ultimately lose or be truely depressed I don't think that is the main reason we play video games I think the complete opposite of that we play video games so that either we won't be bored or we don't have to just be sad or upset about real life

The problem is that you (as well as many other players) treat Mass Effect Trilogy just as a regular video game...

...I strongly believe that Mass Effect Trilogy should be treated only as a serious and complicated sci-fi book... Yes, games like ME3 really can be called Next-Gen Sci-Fi Books.

Modifié par Seival, 08 juin 2012 - 09:04 .

[Seival]

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote...

Too bad The Illusive Man had to die, he was always one of my favorite characters. Wish I could have joined up with Cerberus instead of the Alliance. I even spared the Collector station.

TIM has gone too far. Enslaving innocent civilians to turn them into half-hask-mindless-soldiers was enough to become completely disappointed in him...

...But we also shouldn't forget about some truely good things TIM did.

[Sebby]

TIM's a pathetic excuse for an antagonist and a character in general whose sole purpose is to have the player shoot their e-money shot all over(same with Udina). TIM's such a worthless character that he could have been replaced by anyone and in some cases would have made far more sense(Indoctrinated Alliance admiral and his men or the Batarian Hegemony).

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Seival wrote...

TIM has gone too far. Enslaving innocent civilians to turn them into half-hask-mindless-soldiers was enough to become completely disappointed in him...

...But we also shouldn't forget about some truely good things TIM did.

Sometimes harsh measures are what it takes to get the job done, especially against a highly advanced race like the Reapers. But from a paragon point of view that might not be fitting (I played renegade myself).

I felt bad when I had to pull the trigger and watch TIM die. I still followed his ideals through, and ended up with all the power of the galaxy at my fingertips. Assuming control!

[Seival]

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote...

Seival wrote...

TIM has gone too far. Enslaving innocent civilians to turn them into half-hask-mindless-soldiers was enough to become completely disappointed in him...

...But we also shouldn't forget about some truely good things TIM did.

Sometimes harsh measures are what it takes to get the job done, especially against a highly advanced race like the Reapers. But from a paragon point of view that might not be fitting (I played renegade myself).

I felt bad when I had to pull the trigger and watch TIM die. I still followed his ideals through, and ended up with all the power of the galaxy at my fingertips. Assuming control!

...Also we should not forget that TIM's mistakes in ME3 were not completely his fault. He was indoctrinated after all. So, we can call him a victim I suppose.

[Ageless Face]

Seival wrote...


...Also we should not forget that TIM's mistakes in ME3 were not completely his fault. He was indoctrinated after all. So, we can call him a victim I suppose.

TIM didn't make the experiments, or wanted to control the reapers becasue he was indoctrinated. The reapers didn't want TIM to control them. they attacked sanctuary. TIM's actions up until the end were his own. 

[Seival]

HagarIshay wrote...

Seival wrote...


...Also we should not forget that TIM's mistakes in ME3 were not completely his fault. He was indoctrinated after all. So, we can call him a victim I suppose.

TIM didn't make the experiments, or wanted to control the reapers becasue he was indoctrinated. The reapers didn't want TIM to control them. they attacked sanctuary. TIM's actions up until the end were his own. 

Well, I think that when he started to make such experiments, he already was at one of the stages of indoctrination... Moreover, I think that the Catalist willingly "leaked" some clues on hask-control possibilities to give TIM false hope and force him to go the wrong way... And when TIM reached the stage when such experiments could take part in slowing down Reaper ground forces' progress, Catalist just made sure noone will be able to use the Sanctuary achievements anymore.

Modifié par Seival, 09 juin 2012 - 12:48 .

[Ageless Face]

Seival wrote...


Well, I think that when he started to make such experiments, he already was at one of the stages of indoctrination... Moreover, I think that the Catalist willingly "leaked" some clues on hask-control possibilities to give TIM false hope and force him to go the wrong way... And when TIM reached the stage when such experiments could take part in slowing down Reaper ground forces' progress, Catalist just made sure noone will be able to use the Sanctuary achievements anymore.

True, the process of indoctrination and some of the effects were obviously there at the time of sanctuary. But that does not mean anything. He studied the reapers a long time. The idea of controling them didn't just come to him after only six months. He thought about it before. With the reapers invading, he figured it was the perfect time to try and make the experiments. Becuase of that the proccess of indoctrination started. You see at the end that he battled himself. When renegade Shepard told him to TIM to lower the crucible and then control the reapers, he said again and again he wanted to. But he didn't, the reapers stopped him from doing it. But still, up until the end the reapers had no real control over TIM. TIM's new implants at the end probobly made it easier for the reapers to take control.

Why would the catalyst give TIM clues for control, even if they are false? What would he gain from it? And why would the catalyst do it and not the reapers?

[Seival]

HagarIshay wrote...

Seival wrote...


Well, I think that when he started to make such experiments, he already was at one of the stages of indoctrination... Moreover, I think that the Catalist willingly "leaked" some clues on hask-control possibilities to give TIM false hope and force him to go the wrong way... And when TIM reached the stage when such experiments could take part in slowing down Reaper ground forces' progress, Catalist just made sure noone will be able to use the Sanctuary achievements anymore.

True, the process of indoctrination and some of the effects were obviously there at the time of sanctuary. But that does not mean anything. He studied the reapers a long time. The idea of controling them didn't just come to him after only six months. He thought about it before. With the reapers invading, he figured it was the perfect time to try and make the experiments. Becuase of that the proccess of indoctrination started. You see at the end that he battled himself. When renegade Shepard told him to TIM to lower the crucible and then control the reapers, he said again and again he wanted to. But he didn't, the reapers stopped him from doing it. But still, up until the end the reapers had no real control over TIM. TIM's new implants at the end probobly made it easier for the reapers to take control.

Why would the catalyst give TIM clues for control, even if they are false? What would he gain from it? And why would the catalyst do it and not the reapers?

Well, the brain of the Reapers is the Catalist. So it is behind all main strategical and tactical ideas of any Reaper invasion.

...It's just a dirty trick. Like in Terminator 4, remember? When Skynet gave humans a false hope they can disable machines with some kind of signal in short range. But it was just a successful attempt to lure some particular people into a trap.

[DJBare]

Reposting something I wrote in another thread...

Just my personal opinion, but it's not really a moral issue, it's more an issue of ignorance, let me try to explain, if we were at war with a race that was technically on the same level as us then taking any innovations/inventions the enemy come up with is no problem because technically we're at the same level.
Reaper tech on the other hand is millions of years advanced compared to our own, simply put it's like stone age man finding an atomic bomb, they keep hitting it with their clubs to see what happens, that's us with reaper tech, we like to think we are intelligent enough to work it out but that's because we have a problem saying "I don't know"; it's also why I'll stand by my statement that control is a fools errand, Shepard a mere human controlling billions of minds that are millions of years advanced?

[davishepard]

DJBare wrote...

Reposting something I wrote in another thread...

Just my personal opinion, but it's not really a moral issue, it's more an issue of ignorance, let me try to explain, if we were at war with a race that was technically on the same level as us then taking any innovations/inventions the enemy come up with is no problem because technically we're at the same level.
Reaper tech on the other hand is millions of years advanced compared to our own, simply put it's like stone age man finding an atomic bomb, they keep hitting it with their clubs to see what happens, that's us with reaper tech, we like to think we are intelligent enough to work it out but that's because we have a problem saying "I don't know"; it's also why I'll stand by my statement that control is a fools errand, Shepard a mere human controlling billions of minds that are millions of years advanced?

The game shows that Shepard can indeed control the Reapers however, as he can indeed destroy them or mix organics and synthetics using the Crucible.

[Ageless Face]

Seival wrote...


Well, the brain of the Reapers is the Catalist. So it is behind all main strategical and tactical ideas of any Reaper invasion.

...It's just a dirty trick. Like in Terminator 4, remember? When Skynet gave humans a false hope they can disable machines with some kind of signal in short range. But it was just a successful attempt to lure some particular people into a trap.

Right, but why would the catalyst do it? What reason does he have? TIM was not really lured into traps he got himslef into by himelf. The catalyst destroyed sanctuary. There was no trap there.

DJBare wrote...

Reposting something I wrote in another thread...

Just my personal opinion, but it's not really a moral issue, it's more an issue of ignorance, let me try to explain, if we were at war with a race that was technically on the same level as us then taking any innovations/inventions the enemy come up with is no problem because technically we're at the same level.
Reaper tech on the other hand is millions of years advanced compared to our own, simply put it's like stone age man finding an atomic bomb, they keep hitting it with their clubs to see what happens, that's us with reaper tech, we like to think we are intelligent enough to work it out but that's because we have a problem saying "I don't know"; it's also why I'll stand by my statement that control is a fools errand, Shepard a mere human controlling billions of minds that are millions of years advanced?

 

I don't see control as ignorance. I see it as trying to keep an open mind and explore possibilities.. People were afraid of using the Mass relays, as TIM says himself. But humanity only benefited from the mass relays. Same can be said for the Citadel. And crucible itself. True, it's dangerous. But desperate times call for desperate measures. I think the risk is worth it. Call me a fool, but I'd rather take the risk insted of surley destroy a race, or changing everyone's DNA; I'd rather keep technology than to destroy it. It might no be enough for you, and I understand why. But it IS enough for me, as well as for many others.

I believe the catalyst is not lying. I believe Shepard will be able to control through the crucible. You are right about one thing though: A mere human cannot control the reapers.

 It won't be as an organic. Shepard wil not control the reapers as a human. The catalyst says it himself: "You will die. You will control us, but you will loose everything you have". Shepard will die as an organic.Wether s/he'll take the catalyst form, or just have a mind-upload, or whatever will happen, Shepard will no longer be a mere human. Shepard will be able to control. 

[Seival]

HagarIshay wrote...

Seival wrote...


Well, the brain of the Reapers is the Catalist. So it is behind all main strategical and tactical ideas of any Reaper invasion.

...It's just a dirty trick. Like in Terminator 4, remember? When Skynet gave humans a false hope they can disable machines with some kind of signal in short range. But it was just a successful attempt to lure some particular people into a trap.

Right, but why would the catalyst do it? What reason does he have? TIM was not really lured into traps he got himslef into by himelf. The catalyst destroyed sanctuary. There was no trap there.

 

Well, the trap was much greater in our case (Terminator 4 was just an example). Catalist "leaked" some clues on how hasks can be manipulated, so TIM could easily find these clues. These clues were to convince TIM that not just hasks could be controled, but even Reaper capital ships.

Catalist knew that only Cerberus leaders will see the potential in this. Noone, but Cerberus will truely want to control the Reapers. So they will start to experiment on their own people in order to get some results. They will get an army of faithfull soldiers that will be used in a ways Catalist want them to be used: against the nations to be harvested. But TIM will be fully convinced that he uses the army to take a control over the Reapers, and the rest of the galactic civilization are just staying on his way.

...A clever way to manipulate the enemy. Cerberus gains no real control and has no chance to harm the Reapers in any way. All Catalist need to do is to wait for some time and then destroy the Cerberus research, so enemy will not have any chance to use it to slow down Reapers ground forces... Enemy weakened greatly without any noticeable casualties on the Reapers side.

Modifié par Seival, 09 juin 2012 - 04:25 .

[The Angry One]

Seival, if you want to engage in fanfiction, there's a board for that.