4520 réponses à ce sujet

[Seival]

Seboist wrote...

TIM's a pathetic excuse for an antagonist and a character in general whose sole purpose is to have the player shoot their e-money shot all over(same with Udina). TIM's such a worthless character that he could have been replaced by anyone and in some cases would have made far more sense(Indoctrinated Alliance admiral and his men or the Batarian Hegemony).

TIM and Udina are not pathetic or worthless. They fit the story perfectly. I don't think some new characters used instead of them could do better. Besides, using someone else would ruin the game's integrity. I prefer to see in those roles someone I know from the previous parts of the game.

[Ageless Face]

Seival wrote...


(1) I think that you have to be as technologically advanced, as the Reapers to develop and produce something to Control them only by yourself. That's why the Catalist never afraid to be Controlled by the lesser races. If there were some "easy" ways to Control the Reapers using the leaked Research, then the Cycles would have been broken long ago... Well, and in case if someone powerful will find the Research we will have 3 groups fighting each other instead of fighting the Reapers.

(3) I think that in this case we will have the 3 groups fighting each other instead of fighting the Reapers. And the 3rd group might be even more dangerous to the United Fleet forces than a Cerberus, because noone will know about this 3rd group.

(4) Well, the entire facility was crawling with all kinds of hasks. And they were not friendly to Cerberus. They obliterated all Cerberus troops. And I'm sure it was just a matter of time when they finally get to the Lawson.

1. But the reapers cannot take such big risks. They will never let some random people to experiment about control. Notice that both TIM and the prothean in Javik's cycle were indoctrinated after trying to control. The reapers couldn't take the risks about someone even trying to control. Doesn't matter how big his chances. It's too big of a risk for the reapers. 

3. Even if the reapers cannot take risks as I said before, it doesn't mean they will find all the risks. You said that TIM found clues by the reapers as to how control them. If another group will come and will try to control the reapers, there's no guaranty the reapers will find out about it. Again, too big of a risk. 

4. Yet the facility, if I'm not mistaken, only have Cerberus bodies there until the point of where we see the husks from  the window. Further than that we only see the harvested. Meaning, that the harvested that the reapers brought didn't enter the entire facility, only up until a certain point. The rest of the harvested were Cerberus's.

5. BTW, why kill all the Cerberus troops if they were all indoctrinated?

[Seival]

HagarIshay wrote...

Seival wrote...


(1) I think that you have to be as technologically advanced, as the Reapers to develop and produce something to Control them only by yourself. That's why the Catalist never afraid to be Controlled by the lesser races. If there were some "easy" ways to Control the Reapers using the leaked Research, then the Cycles would have been broken long ago... Well, and in case if someone powerful will find the Research we will have 3 groups fighting each other instead of fighting the Reapers.

(3) I think that in this case we will have the 3 groups fighting each other instead of fighting the Reapers. And the 3rd group might be even more dangerous to the United Fleet forces than a Cerberus, because noone will know about this 3rd group.

(4) Well, the entire facility was crawling with all kinds of hasks. And they were not friendly to Cerberus. They obliterated all Cerberus troops. And I'm sure it was just a matter of time when they finally get to the Lawson.

1. But the reapers cannot take such big risks. They will never let some random people to experiment about control. Notice that both TIM and the prothean in Javik's cycle were indoctrinated after trying to control. The reapers couldn't take the risks about someone even trying to control. Doesn't matter how big his chances. It's too big of a risk for the reapers. 

3. Even if the reapers cannot take risks as I said before, it doesn't mean they will find all the risks. You said that TIM found clues by the reapers as to how control them. If another group will come and will try to control the reapers, there's no guaranty the reapers will find out about it. Again, too big of a risk. 

4. Yet the facility, if I'm not mistaken, only have Cerberus bodies there until the point of where we see the husks from  the window. Further than that we only see the harvested. Meaning, that the harvested that the reapers brought didn't enter the entire facility, only up until a certain point. The rest of the harvested were Cerberus's.

5. BTW, why kill all the Cerberus troops if they were all indoctrinated?

(1) Well, as I said, I believe the Catalist risked nothing allowing lesser races to experiment with control. I think It was a standard and safe tactic for each cycle. Catalist never provided lesser races with something potentially dangerous to the Reapers.

(3) I think "1" partially answered this question. I believe the 3rd group will 100% end up the same as a Cerberus.

(4) Or Reapers just took control over the Cerberus abominations (not Cerberus troops), which required some kind of work inside the facility.

(5) I think that was only partial indoctrination, so they could resist for some time. Some of those abominations could be ex-Cerberus troops.

Modifié par Seival, 12 juin 2012 - 02:47 .

[Ageless Face]

Seival wrote...


(1) Well, as I said, I believe the Catalist risked nothing allowing lesser races to experiment with control. I think It was a standard and safe tactic for each cycle. Catalist never provided lesser races with something potentially dangerous to the Reapers.

(3) I think "1" partially answered this question. I believe the 3rd group will 100% end up the same as a Cerberus.

(4) Or Reapers just took control over the Cerberus abominations (not Cerberus troops), which required some kind of work inside the facility.

(5) I think that was only partial indoctrination, so they could resist for some time. Some of those abominations could be ex-Cerberus troops.

gotta say Seival, you sure know how to debate .


1. Didn't he? The catalyst and the reapers provided the organics the mass relays. Sure, it was a trap to lure organics. But if not for the mass relays, the organics would never have built the crucible, would never have defeted the reapers. And before you'll say that the catalyst wanted the organics to use the crucible, he didn't up until Shepard was there. Otherwise, he would have just sent Shepard signals. The reapers provided the organics with dangerous help for the organics. And the mass relays are more subtle dangers than giving Cerberus and any other race INFORAMTION about how to control the reapers, how to MAKE the harvested.

3. No, the third group won't become the same as Cerberus, by your own theory. You said that the reapers indoc Cerberus, and at the same time gave them info. Yet Lawson can give the other group the info without any indoctrination in the process. They won't become like Cerberus. They will only have a chance, big or small, to control the reapers (or the harvested).

4. And again we are coming back to the same question: If the harvested inside are cotrolled by the reapers, why didn't they kill him when they had the chance? Why don't we see Cerberus corpses inside, unless the harvested didn't actually kill them?

5. Wait, only partial? weren't we were told that TIM turned the troopers from sanctuary and controlled them from his experiments? If TIM was indoc by the reapers, then it means that the Cerberus agents were under the reapers' influence, even if they didn't know it. It's either you leave, you or will always be a Cerberus' agent.
And also, why would ex-Cerberus agents were suddnly on Sanctuary?

Modifié par HagarIshay, 12 juin 2012 - 04:54 .

[Seival]

HagarIshay wrote...

Seival wrote...


(1) Well, as I said, I believe the Catalist risked nothing allowing lesser races to experiment with control. I think It was a standard and safe tactic for each cycle. Catalist never provided lesser races with something potentially dangerous to the Reapers.

(3) I think "1" partially answered this question. I believe the 3rd group will 100% end up the same as a Cerberus.

(4) Or Reapers just took control over the Cerberus abominations (not Cerberus troops), which required some kind of work inside the facility.

(5) I think that was only partial indoctrination, so they could resist for some time. Some of those abominations could be ex-Cerberus troops.

gotta say Seival, you sure know how to debate .


1. Didn't he? The catalyst and the reapers provided the organics the mass relays. Sure, it was a trap to lure organics. But if not for the mass relays, the organics would never have built the crucible, would never have defeted the reapers. And before you'll say that the catalyst wanted the organics to use the crucible, he didn't up until Shepard was there. Otherwise, he would have just sent Shepard signals. The reapers provided the organics with dangerous help for the organics. And the mass relays are more subtle dangers than giving Cerberus and any other race INFORAMTION about how to control the reapers, how to MAKE the harvested.

3. No, the third group won't become the same as Cerberus, by your own theory. You said that the reapers indoc Cerberus, and at the same time gave them info. Yet Lawson can give the other group the info without any indoctrination in the process. They won't become like Cerberus. They will only have a chance, big or small, to control the reapers (or the harvested).

4. And again we are coming back to the same question: If the harvested inside are cotrolled by the reapers, why didn't they kill him when they had the chance? Why don't we see Cerberus corpses inside, unless the harvested didn't actually kill them?

5. Wait, only partial? weren't we were told that TIM turned the troopers from sanctuary and controlled them from his experiments? If TIM was indoc by the reapers, then it means that the Cerberus agents were under the reapers' influence, even if they didn't know it. It's either you leave, you or will always be a Cerberus' agent.
And also, why would ex-Cerberus agents were suddnly on Sanctuary?

Thanks

(1) And that is my other theory about (it was described in the Crucible support thread). I think that lesser races had no chance to develop something like Crucuble themselves. No matter Reapers left a lot of their "toys" for organics.
http://social.biowar...ndex/12045178/1

(3) Well, I actually meant that Cerberus started to indoctrinate themselves (without even knowing about it) by thier own experiments, based on info "leaked" by the Catalist. And the 3rd, 4th, 5th... group will share the same fate. I believe that "leaked" info has no other purpose but to secretly corrupt.

(4) For example Reapers could regain control soon after Shepard arrived. And then started to regroup, preparing to kill both Shepard and the Lawson.

(5) I believe all Cerberus troops and leaders were only partially indoctrinated till the end. Fully indoctrinated subjects have no independent mind, or have no mind at all. They can't even talk.
By ex-Cerberus I meant that some hasks you fight inside the Sanctuary could be "remains" of some Cerberus troops. 

Modifié par Seival, 12 juin 2012 - 07:41 .

[Seival]

Just finished one more banner for Control supporters. Not sure if it's good enough. So I wanna show it here before posting it in OP:

[CroGamer002]

^Nice.

[Seival]

Mesina2 wrote...

^Nice.

Thanks

[Ageless Face]

Seival wrote...


Thanks

(1) And that is my other theory about (it was described in the Crucible support thread). I think that lesser races had no chance to develop something like Crucuble themselves. No matter Reapers left a lot of their "toys" for organics.
http://social.biowar...ndex/12045178/1

(3) Well, I actually meant that Cerberus started to indoctrinate themselves (without even knowing about it) by thier own experiments, based on info "leaked" by the Catalist. And the 3rd, 4th, 5th... group will share the same fate. I believe that "leaked" info has no other purpose but to secretly corrupt.

(4) For example Reapers could regain control soon after Shepard arrived. And then started to regroup, preparing to kill both Shepard and the Lawson.

(5) I believe all Cerberus troops and leaders were only partially indoctrinated till the end. Fully indoctrinated subjects have no independent mind, or have no mind at all. They can't even talk.
By ex-Cerberus I meant that some hasks you fight inside the Sanctuary could be "remains" of some Cerberus troops. 

1. Yet the organics DID succeed to build the crucibe by themselves. The reapers left a lot for organics, true. But was it ever said that the crucible was also a reaper's creation (or maybe I just didn't listen very well. That can also be a high possibility). Anyway, that was not my point. My point was, that the reapers gave the organics some advanced technology, but all of it is dangerous. And the risks that they actually tak are more beneficial to the reapers than to the organics. Giving organics power for a possible control is not a small risk, and it doesn't add more benefits.

3. It can maybe have more sesne if the tech itself is what can indoc, not the info. But if that is what you meant, then I it can be possible.

4. But we see the reapers leaving exactly when Shepard arrvies. And aren't the harvested always being controled by the reapers? They don't have a switch to shut them down.

5. We are told that TIM fully indoc his agents. There is a difference between indoctrinated and harvested. Dr. Kenson could talk. The crazy salarian on Virmire could talk. They were both indoc. None were harvested. The Cerberus agents are also not harvested. They are using reaper tech, sure, but that doesn't make them harvested.
But the place is supposedly a sanctuary. The place should not have bodies lying around there while people want to move to the facillity. Can make people suspicious.



EDIT: Great banner, BTW!

Modifié par HagarIshay, 12 juin 2012 - 08:26 .

[Seival]

HagarIshay wrote...

Seival wrote...


Thanks

(1) And that is my other theory about (it was described in the Crucible support thread). I think that lesser races had no chance to develop something like Crucuble themselves. No matter Reapers left a lot of their "toys" for organics.
http://social.biowar...ndex/12045178/1

(3) Well, I actually meant that Cerberus started to indoctrinate themselves (without even knowing about it) by thier own experiments, based on info "leaked" by the Catalist. And the 3rd, 4th, 5th... group will share the same fate. I believe that "leaked" info has no other purpose but to secretly corrupt.

(4) For example Reapers could regain control soon after Shepard arrived. And then started to regroup, preparing to kill both Shepard and the Lawson.

(5) I believe all Cerberus troops and leaders were only partially indoctrinated till the end. Fully indoctrinated subjects have no independent mind, or have no mind at all. They can't even talk.
By ex-Cerberus I meant that some hasks you fight inside the Sanctuary could be "remains" of some Cerberus troops. 

1. Yet the organics DID succeed to build the crucibe by themselves. The reapers left a lot for organics, true. But was it ever said that the crucible was also a reaper's creation (or maybe I just didn't listen very well. That can also be a high possibility). Anyway, that was not my point. My point was, that the reapers gave the organics some advanced technology, but all of it is dangerous. And the risks that they actually tak are more beneficial to the reapers than to the organics. Giving organics power for a possible control is not a small risk, and it doesn't add more benefits.

3. It can maybe have more sesne if the tech itself is what can indoc, not the info. But if that is what you meant, then I it can be possible.

4. But we see the reapers leaving exactly when Shepard arrvies. And aren't the harvested always being controled by the reapers? They don't have a switch to shut them down.

5. We are told that TIM fully indoc his agents. There is a difference between indoctrinated and harvested. Dr. Kenson could talk. The crazy salarian on Virmire could talk. They were both indoc. None were harvested. The Cerberus agents are also not harvested. They are using reaper tech, sure, but that doesn't make them harvested.
But the place is supposedly a sanctuary. The place should not have bodies lying around there while people want to move to the facillity. Can make people suspicious.



EDIT: Great banner, BTW!

(1) Build, yes. But not develop I believe. I rely on the assumption, that if each cycle before had the same groups as Cerberus, and all of these groups have failed, then there was never any risk for the Catalist and the Reapers.

(3) Yes. I meant that the only thing that can be produced from the "leaked" info is a tech which can only secretly corrupt.

(4) Well, I believe it was Cerberus attempt to evacuate actually. As far as I remember, Reapers wasn't leaving when Shepard arrived.

(5) I've understood what are you talking about, sorry  ...You meant that "indoctrinated" = "partially harvested", and "harvested" = "mindless hasks". And I meant "fully indoctrinated" = "harvested", and "partially indoctrinated" = "not completely harvested". Well, I think your variant is more correct... So, I meant that some of those harvested inside the Sanctuary could be from the Sanctuary's defence force, the ones who were not killed completely.

Thanks

[BlackoutOmega]

[Seival]

BlackoutOmega wrote...

Vocal minority.

[BlackoutOmega]

Seival wrote...

BlackoutOmega wrote...

Vocal minority.

Oh shut up.

[HellishFiend]

Seival, I have an honest question regarding your forum avatar and how it meshes with your chosen belief regarding the ending. 

If you have truly chosen to embrace the face-value interpretation of control, and all of the implications and consequences that it entails, why then have you chosen to use an avatar of your custom Shepard from her previous existence as an organic? If you are going to go through the trouble to set up a custom avatar, shouldnt you rather choose an avatar that is a representation of your new form of existence? For example, a picture of the Citadel, or a Reaper, or the Catalyst, or this:



If you truly embrace the concept of the face-value Control ending as much as you seem to, then why do you still feel that a picture of organic femshep is an appropriate representation? That is your past existence, which you have rejected. I question your belief if you cannot let go of your past. I question your belief if you feel you are best personified by your organic self. I question the extent to which you truly value your new existence as a disembodied consciousness that controls Reaper forces. So how do you justify it?

Again, this is an honest question, and I hope I dont come across as offensive, but I really am curious about this. If you have already addressed this, please let me know where the information can be found. Thanks in advance. 

Modifié par HellishFiend, 13 juin 2012 - 05:45 .

[Jadebaby]

HellishFiend wrote...

Seival, I have an honest question regarding your forum avatar and how it meshes with your chosen belief regarding the ending. 

If you have truly chosen to embrace the face-value interpretation of control, and all of the implications and consequences that it entails, why then have you chosen to use an avatar of your custom Shepard from her previous existence as an organic? If you are going to go through the trouble to set up a custom avatar, shouldnt you rather choose an avatar that is a representation of your new form of existence? For example, a picture of the Citadel, or a Reaper, or the Catalyst, or this:



If you truly embrace the concept of the face-value Control ending as much as you seem to, then why do you still feel that a picture of organic femshep is an appropriate representation? That is your past existence, which you have rejected. I question your belief if you cannot let go of your past. I question your belief if you feel you are best personified by your organic self. I question the extent to which you truly value your new existence as a disembodied consciousness that controls Reaper forces. So how do you justify it?

Again, this is an honest question, and I hope I dont come across as offensive, but I really am curious about this. If you have already addressed this, please let me know where the information can be found. Thanks in advance. 

Do you believe in Slavery?

[CroGamer002]

Seival wrote...

BlackoutOmega wrote...

Vocal minority.

Sorry, but over 50k people ain't a vocal minority.


Few 100's of people can support opinions of over 100 million people in a country on politics, over 50k sure as hell can support opinions of few millions of gamers.

[Seival]

HellishFiend wrote...

Seival, I have an honest question regarding your forum avatar and how it meshes with your chosen belief regarding the ending. 

If you have truly chosen to embrace the face-value interpretation of control, and all of the implications and consequences that it entails, why then have you chosen to use an avatar of your custom Shepard from her previous existence as an organic? If you are going to go through the trouble to set up a custom avatar, shouldnt you rather choose an avatar that is a representation of your new form of existence? For example, a picture of the Citadel, or a Reaper, or the Catalyst, or this:



If you truly embrace the concept of the face-value Control ending as much as you seem to, then why do you still feel that a picture of organic femshep is an appropriate representation? That is your past existence, which you have rejected. I question your belief if you cannot let go of your past. I question your belief if you feel you are best personified by your organic self. I question the extent to which you truly value your new existence as a disembodied consciousness that controls Reaper forces. So how do you justify it?

Again, this is an honest question, and I hope I dont come across as offensive, but I really am curious about this. If you have already addressed this, please let me know where the information can be found. Thanks in advance. 

Your question is not offensive at all

...My forum avatar is just a picture of my favorite Shepard. No inner meaning... Yes, her skin is very pale so even blue ambient color make her look blue-skinned:

Modifié par Seival, 13 juin 2012 - 10:40 .

[Seival]

Mesina2 wrote...

Seival wrote...

BlackoutOmega wrote...

Vocal minority.

Sorry, but over 50k people ain't a vocal minority.


Few 100's of people can support opinions of over 100 million people in a country on politics, over 50k sure as hell can support opinions of few millions of gamers.

Well, I still believe that most players actually liked the endings. And I don't usually believe vote results if there was less than a million voters... It's just my opinion though.

[Ageless Face]

Seival wrote...


(1) Build, yes. But not develop I believe. I rely on the assumption, that if each cycle before had the same groups as Cerberus, and all of these groups have failed, then there was never any risk for the Catalist and the Reapers.

(3) Yes. I meant that the only thing that can be produced from the "leaked" info is a tech which can only secretly corrupt.

(4) Well, I believe it was Cerberus attempt to evacuate actually. As far as I remember, Reapers wasn't leaving when Shepard arrived.

(5) I've understood what are you talking about, sorry  ...You meant that "indoctrinated" = "partially harvested", and "harvested" = "mindless hasks". And I meant "fully indoctrinated" = "harvested", and "partially indoctrinated" = "not completely harvested". Well, I think your variant is more correct... So, I meant that some of those harvested inside the Sanctuary could be from the Sanctuary's defence force, the ones who were not killed completely.

Thanks

1. Well, in Javik's cycle there was someone that was indoc that wanted to control the reapers. So you are right about that.

4. Yes, the reapers left exactly when Shepard arrived. That is why we fight only Cerberus agents and not the harvested. The reapers wouldn't control the harevested if the harvested weren't in control before.

5. The bolded part- I'm sorry but I don't understand.

[Jamie9]

Seival wrote...

Well, I still believe that most players actually liked the endings. And I don't usually believe vote results if there was less than a million voters... It's just my opinion though.

Ehh... that's not true though. Continue to like the endings and
demonstrate why you like them. It's very good to have different opinions
after all!

But every single poll regarding the ending has been vastly sweked towards "didn't like the ending". 50,000 votes is a fair sample size. Yes, it could be larger, but every sample could be larger. In an ideal world, our samples would include everyone, but they don't unfortunately.

You don't see many people defend the ending, and that's not just on the BSN. All across the internet people seem to hate the ending, people i know IRL that don't use forums hated the ending (personal anecdote). Even review sites such as IGN have acknowledged that the playerbase mostly hates the ending.

The Extended Cut is just proof that there were enough people.

Modifié par Jamie9, 13 juin 2012 - 11:09 .

[DJBare]

HagarIshay wrote...
I don't see control as ignorance. I see it as trying to keep an open mind and explore possibilities.. People were afraid of using the Mass relays, as TIM says himself. But humanity only benefited from the mass relays.

Of course the races benefited from the mass relays, that's exactly what the reapers wanted, if there is a difficult and an easy path to a goal humans will choose the easy path, but you do not learn and gain experience by taking the easy path, most of our technology is based in mass relay technology, reaper technology, in comparison to reapers we are children and they handed us a loaded gun.

[mass perfection]

Control>Destroy>Synthesis.

[Lord Goose]

Of course the races benefited from the mass relays, that's exactly what the reapers wanted, if there is a difficult and an easy path to a goal humans will choose the easy path, but you do not learn and gain experience by taking the easy path, most of our technology is based in mass relay technology, reaper technology, in comparison to reapers we are children and they handed us a loaded gun.

Thanix weaponry is also based on Reaper's technology. But without it, fighting Reapers would be impossible.

[mass perfection]

You should start a Control ending support group.

Modifié par mass perfection, 13 juin 2012 - 12:05 .

[Seival]

Jamie9 wrote...

Seival wrote...

Well, I still believe that most players actually liked the endings. And I don't usually believe vote results if there was less than a million voters... It's just my opinion though.

Ehh... that's not true though. Continue to like the endings and
demonstrate why you like them. It's very good to have different opinions
after all!

But every single poll regarding the ending has been vastly sweked towards "didn't like the ending". 50,000 votes is a fair sample size. Yes, it could be larger, but every sample could be larger. In an ideal world, our samples would include everyone, but they don't unfortunately.

You don't see many people defend the ending, and that's not just on the BSN. All across the internet people seem to hate the ending, people i know IRL that don't use forums hated the ending (personal anecdote). Even review sites such as IGN have acknowledged that the playerbase mostly hates the ending.

The Extended Cut is just proof that there were enough people.

Maybe you are right, and pro-enders are really in minority. But BioWare prefered to explain existing endings instead of making new ones anyway. No matter the strong vocal opposition. Which only means that they care about ideas much more than about the money. And this is very good.

...Either way, the endings were set in stone. And nothing will change that.

Modifié par Seival, 13 juin 2012 - 01:13 .