4520 réponses à ce sujet

[HellishFiend]

HagarIshay wrote...

Seival wrote...


As far as I remember, there were a lot of human-hasks inside. Not less then any other type. I think that some of Cerberus soldiers could be too damaged while trying to resist, so they became non-harvestable and just died. Cerberus could try to escape when they realized that the Reapers managed to take control over the "test-harvested" inside the facility, and thus were surrounded by the overwhelming force. And I believe that the Lawson was doomed to become the harvested or to be killed. It was just a matter of time in that situation.

Yet again, there were Cerberus soldiers at the entrence, they didn't seem to be harvested. Why wouldn't they, if the reapers wanted them harvested?

Why would Cerberus want to escape, if they were indoc by the reapers? 

Wasn't Lawson indoc too? He was in charge of it all. He was near the reaper tech as much as the scientists.

And why would there be at the entrence corpses of the Harvested, near more corpses of Cerberus soldiers, and near them also alive Cerberus soldiers? Unless they fought each other. Why would they fight each other if Cerberus was indoc?

For what it's worth, one of the fringe/tangent theories within the IT context is that the Reapers handled Sanctuary the way they did to add plausibility to the idea that TIM was on to something with his research. In other words, to provide a setting with a means of provoking Shepard into warming up to the idea of Control. 

[HellishFiend]

Lord Goose wrote...

But take any form of Reaper tech besides the mass relays, and it either directly or indirectly affects you in negative fashion in and of itself.

Well. Thanix weaponry (created from Reaper's remains), geth upgrade (at least played as positive), IFF system (Salarian fleet and Normandy), EDI...

It remains to be seen if any of that returns to bite us in the end. Not that I'm saying it will, but I think my original point is still very broadly applicable. 

[Lord Goose]

It remains to be seen if any of that returns to bite us in the end.

Well, any kind of technology could potentially "bite" us. If humanity haven't discovered means of interstellar travel and stuck with XX century technology level, it could be spared from harvest.

Not that I'm saying it will, but I think my original point is still very broadly applicable.

Well, where is a significant difference between "usage of Reapers technology will only have negative consequences" and "usage of Reaper technology may have negative consequences".

[Ageless Face]

HellishFiend wrote...

For what it's worth, one of the fringe/tangent theories within the IT context is that the Reapers handled Sanctuary the way they did to add plausibility to the idea that TIM was on to something with his research. In other words, to provide a setting with a means of provoking Shepard into warming up to the idea of Control. 

So... The reapers went through all this trouble just to indoc Shepard? Shepard was right there. Why not just try to attack him/her? Why not wait? unless the reapers didn't know s/he would arrive there. 

Modifié par HagarIshay, 13 juin 2012 - 04:55 .

[HellishFiend]

HagarIshay wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

For what it's worth, one of the fringe/tangent theories within the IT context is that the Reapers handled Sanctuary the way they did to add plausibility to the idea that TIM was on to something with his research. In other words, to provide a setting with a means of provoking Shepard into warming up to the idea of Control. 

So... The reapers went through all this trouble just to indoc Shepard? Shepard was right there. Why not just try to attack him/her? unless the reapers didn't know s/he was there. 

Because attacking or capturing Shepard would defeat the purpose of trying to indoctrinate him/her. In order to preserve his potential clandestine usefulness as a covert agent, they need to preserve the integrity of the high regard in which he is viewed by the galaxy. His status would be destroyed if he were captured and released by the Reapers, rendering him useless for their purposes. They might as well just turn him into a husk. 

But, like I said, regarding Sanctuary, it's just one of the fringe/tangent theories, so take it for what it's worth. 

[HellishFiend]

Lord Goose wrote...

It remains to be seen if any of that returns to bite us in the end.

Well, any kind of technology could potentially "bite" us. If humanity haven't discovered means of interstellar travel and stuck with XX century technology level, it could be spared from harvest.

Not that I'm saying it will, but I think my original point is still very broadly applicable.

Well, where is a significant difference between "usage of Reapers technology will only have negative consequences" and "usage of Reaper technology may have negative consequences".

The problem is that it is a very slippery slope. While there are obvious short term gains to using most Reaper tech, most of it will either bite you right away, later on, or lead to other things that will bite you later on. 

[Lord Goose]

While there are obvious short term gains to using most Reaper tech, most of it will either bite you right away, later on, or lead to other things that will bite you later on.

Again, that could be said, well, about anything. Salarians uplifted Krogans to fight Rachni, but in the end Krogans rebelled, and they have to use genophage against them. Because of it, krogans became largely hostile to the galaxy. Does it mean, that Krogan's should never have been uplifted?

Unless we have some evidence, I still say that it is unreasonable to believe that any kind of Reaper technology will have negative outcome. Especially, if where is Mass Relays, which are beneficial.

Modifié par Lord Goose, 13 juin 2012 - 05:03 .

[Ageless Face]

HellishFiend wrote...


Because attacking or capturing Shepard would defeat the purpose of trying to indoctrinate him/her. In order to preserve his potential clandestine usefulness as a covert agent, they need to preserve the integrity of the high regard in which he is viewed by the galaxy. His status would be destroyed if he were captured and released by the Reapers, rendering him useless for their purposes. They might as well just turn him into a husk. 

But, like I said, regarding Sanctuary, it's just one of the fringe/tangent theories, so take it for what it's worth. 

The reapers can abduct Shepard and then indoctrinate him/her. Then the reapers can set him loose on some jundgle planet, and tell him to say he managed to escape. Wouldn't be the first time Shepard did something like that. Everyone will just be happy Shepard survived- while Shepard is sabotaging everything. And don't forget that Shepard was attacked by the reapers in ME3. If the reapers wanted to indoc Shepard, it will only be at the very end, when the reapers have the time for it (not that I believe the IT).

And well, you brought it up. It's only fair I'll try to dismiss the theory .

[Lord Goose]

And they attack Sanctuary even if Shepard doesn't have enough EMS to choose anything besides Control/Destroy.

[Seival]

HagarIshay wrote...

Seival wrote...


As far as I remember, there were a lot of human-hasks inside. Not less then any other type. I think that some of Cerberus soldiers could be too damaged while trying to resist, so they became non-harvestable and just died. Cerberus could try to escape when they realized that the Reapers managed to take control over the "test-harvested" inside the facility, and thus were surrounded by the overwhelming force. And I believe that the Lawson was doomed to become the harvested or to be killed. It was just a matter of time in that situation.

Yet again, there were Cerberus soldiers at the entrence, they didn't seem to be harvested. Why wouldn't they, if the reapers wanted them harvested?

Why would Cerberus want to escape, if they were indoc by the reapers? 

Wasn't Lawson indoc too? He was in charge of it all. He was near the reaper tech as much as the scientists.

And why would there be at the entrence corpses of the Harvested, near more corpses of Cerberus soldiers, and near them also alive Cerberus soldiers? Unless they fought each other. Why would they fight each other if Cerberus was indoc?

I think that the Reapers wanted to harvest them all indeed, but didn't manage to do so fast enough. So, some Cerberus soldiers resisted, and became "unharvestable" because of too much damage taken and no time for the Reapers to harvest them all in given amount of time. Also I believe that the Lawson resisted as hard as killed Cerberus soldiers, and managed to cover in that room. And the Reapers just didn't reach the Lawson yet when Shepard came.

Modifié par Seival, 13 juin 2012 - 05:15 .

[HellishFiend]

Lord Goose wrote...

While there are obvious short term gains to using most Reaper tech, most of it will either bite you right away, later on, or lead to other things that will bite you later on.

Again, that could be said, well, about anything. Salarians uplifted Krogans to fight Rachni, but in the end Krogans rebelled, and they have to use genophage against them. Because of it, krogans became largely hostile to the galaxy. Does it mean, that Krogan's should never have been uplifted?

Unless we have some evidence, I still say that it is unreasonable to believe that any kind of Reaper technology will have negative outcome. Especially, if where is Mass Relays, which are beneficial.

We're reaching subjective territory here, so I think we can safely agree to disagree. 

[HellishFiend]

HagarIshay wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...


Because attacking or capturing Shepard would defeat the purpose of trying to indoctrinate him/her. In order to preserve his potential clandestine usefulness as a covert agent, they need to preserve the integrity of the high regard in which he is viewed by the galaxy. His status would be destroyed if he were captured and released by the Reapers, rendering him useless for their purposes. They might as well just turn him into a husk. 

But, like I said, regarding Sanctuary, it's just one of the fringe/tangent theories, so take it for what it's worth. 

The reapers can abduct Shepard and then indoctrinate him/her. Then the reapers can set him loose on some jundgle planet, and tell him to say he managed to escape. Wouldn't be the first time Shepard did something like that. Everyone will just be happy Shepard survived- while Shepard is sabotaging everything. And don't forget that Shepard was attacked by the reapers in ME3. If the reapers wanted to indoc Shepard, it will only be at the very end, when the reapers have the time for it (not that I believe the IT).

And well, you brought it up. It's only fair I'll try to dismiss the theory .

That wouldnt work. Indoctrination is most effective when the victim believes they are still working in their best interest. In your scenario, Shepard would have to openly be working for the Reapers, which he would never do. 

[Lord Goose]

They could have abducted Shepard, create an ''accident'' during which he would escape, and when subtly influence his decisions, so he can screw up any chance to defeat them.

[Ageless Face]

Seival wrote...

I think that the Reapers wanted to harvest them all indeed, but didn't manage to do so fast enough. So, some Cerberus soldiers resisted, and became "unharvestable" because of too much damage taken and no time for the Reapers to harvest them all in given amount of time. Also I believe that the Lawson resisted as hard as killed Cerberus soldiers, and managed to cover in that room. And the Reapers just didn't reach the Lawson yet when Shepard came.

So the Cerberus soldiers resisted the reapers but not TIM's expriments? TIM's are much more weak than the reaper's. And if Cerberus is indoc, aren't the people in it will immidietly become reaper's slaves?

Yet the tech is making people indoc, no? If so, then Lawson should have been indoc way before the reapers arrived. Unless, the tech didn't indoctrinated him. Or anyone else. 

And again, the reapers had plenty of time to reach Lawson. Why didn't they?

I think we are going in circles here 

[Ageless Face]

HellishFiend wrote...


That wouldnt work. Indoctrination is most effective when the victim believes they are still working in their best interest. In your scenario, Shepard would have to openly be working for the Reapers, which he would never do. 

The reapers can always indoc Shepard even if s/he resist. Happened in the book with Grayson, the salarians in ME1 at virmire, Rana thernoplies. After Shepard will be indoc even after resisting, the reapers will do what they want with him/her. 

[HellishFiend]

HagarIshay wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...


That wouldnt work. Indoctrination is most effective when the victim believes they are still working in their best interest. In your scenario, Shepard would have to openly be working for the Reapers, which he would never do. 

The reapers can always indoc Shepard even if s/he resist. Happened in the book with Grayson, the salarians in ME1 at virmire, Rana thernoplies. After Shepard will be indoc even after resisting, the reapers will do what they want with him/her. 

I'm afraid you're mistaken. With Grayson, he had been injected with nanides, which consumed his body with very visible Reaper tech, and gained direct motor control over his body. Different type of indoctrination, and wouldnt work for their purposes in Shepard's case.

The salarians at virmire were driven insane by rapid indoctrination. Would also render Shepard useless.

Rana is an example of the effects of subtle indoctrination causing higher brain function to decay after a long period of time, eventually leading to insanity. That is the type of indoctrination the Reapers need to perform on Shepard, and it is subtle at first. Rana did not know she was indoctrinated, which allowed her the plausible deniability she needed to convince Shepard to let her go, and eventually get into the situation where she could cause some damage. 

Modifié par HellishFiend, 13 juin 2012 - 05:42 .

[Ageless Face]

HellishFiend wrote...

I'm afraid you're mistaken. With Grayson, he had been injected with nanides, which consumed his body with very visible Reaper tech, and gained direct motor control over his body. Different type of indoctrination, and wouldnt work for their purposes in Shepard's case.

 

Why wouldn't it? There's no need to put as much upgrades as it was put to grayson, but placing a indoctrination chip which won't be visiable will certently do the trick.

 

 
The salarians at virmire were driven insane by rapid indoctrination. Would also render Shepard useless.

  

True. concede

 

  
Rana is an example of the effects of subtle indoctrination causing higher brain function to decay after a long period of time, eventually leading to insanity. That is the type of indoctrination the Reapers need to perform on Shepard, and it is subtle at first. Rana did not know she was indoctrinated, which allowed her the plausible deniability she needed to convince Shepard to let her go, and eventually get into the situation where she could cause some damage. 
 

   

*sigh* true. concede.


But I'm sure there is still a way to force indoctrination. Just brain wash Shepard. Put him/her near a reaper artifact, and let the voices of the reapers to control him/her.

[HellishFiend]

HagarIshay wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

I'm afraid you're mistaken. With Grayson, he had been injected with nanides, which consumed his body with very visible Reaper tech, and gained direct motor control over his body. Different type of indoctrination, and wouldnt work for their purposes in Shepard's case.

 

Why wouldn't it? There's no need to put as much upgrades as it was put to grayson, but placing a indoctrination chip which won't be visiable will certently do the trick.

 

 
The salarians at virmire were driven insane by rapid indoctrination. Would also render Shepard useless.

  

True. concede

 

  
Rana is an example of the effects of subtle indoctrination causing higher brain function to decay after a long period of time, eventually leading to insanity. That is the type of indoctrination the Reapers need to perform on Shepard, and it is subtle at first. Rana did not know she was indoctrinated, which allowed her the plausible deniability she needed to convince Shepard to let her go, and eventually get into the situation where she could cause some damage. 
 

   

*sigh* true. concede.


But I'm sure there is still a way to force indoctrination. Just brain wash Shepard. Put him/her near a reaper artifact, and let the voices of the reapers to control him/her.

Exactly! That is essentially what theyve been doing over the course of the trilogy. They stepped up their efforts in Arrival by camping him out near Object Rho for two whole days. 

In any case, I'm not trying to sway your belief. Bioware intended for the current endings to be intepreted in many ways. Thank you for the rational discussion. 

[Ageless Face]

HellishFiend wrote...


Exactly! That is essentially what theyve been doing over the course of the trilogy. They stepped up their efforts in Arrival by camping him out near Object Rho for two whole days. 

In any case, I'm not trying to sway your belief. Bioware intended for the current endings to be intepreted in many ways. Thank you for the rational discussion. 

Well, it doesn't only have to be in a subtle way. If Kenson would have brought Shepard more or stronger drugs, or place him/her near the artifact through the whole two days and maybe even more, Shepard would have been indoctrinated, no doubt about that. Yet it didn't happen, Shepard was strong enough to resist. So, the reapers didn't success this time. They could have still brought Shepard near an artifact the second time. Why make the indoc subtle when the reapers can make it quickly? By the time Shepard is subtly indoc, s/he is recruiting an army to fight the reapers. Better for the reapers to abduct Shep, and try harder to indoc him/her.


And thanks to you too. Always nice and interesting to have an IT discussion without anyone flaming each other .

[HellishFiend]

HagarIshay wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...


Exactly! That is essentially what theyve been doing over the course of the trilogy. They stepped up their efforts in Arrival by camping him out near Object Rho for two whole days. 

In any case, I'm not trying to sway your belief. Bioware intended for the current endings to be intepreted in many ways. Thank you for the rational discussion. 

Well, it doesn't only have to be in a subtle way. If Kenson would have brought Shepard more or stronger drugs, or place him/her near the artifact through the whole two days and maybe even more, Shepard would have been indoctrinated, no doubt about that. Yet it didn't happen, Shepard was strong enough to resist. So, the reapers didn't success this time. They could have still brought Shepard near an artifact the second time. Why make the indoc subtle when the reapers can make it quickly? By the time Shepard is subtly indoc, s/he is recruiting an army to fight the reapers. Better for the reapers to abduct Shep, and try harder to indoc him/her.


And thanks to you too. Always nice and interesting to have an IT discussion without anyone flaming each other .

I understand and respect your position. Part of my personal belief, though is that Bioware is just as inclined to indoctrinate the player as they are Shepard. In that context, the way they handled his indoctrination in both the game and the story makes logical sense. The way you suggest it, however, would preclude the possibility of allowing the player to be immersed in the indoctrination process from a first-person perspective. 

edit: fixed some grammars

Modifié par HellishFiend, 13 juin 2012 - 06:42 .

[Seival]

HagarIshay wrote...

Seival wrote...

I think that the Reapers wanted to harvest them all indeed, but didn't manage to do so fast enough. So, some Cerberus soldiers resisted, and became "unharvestable" because of too much damage taken and no time for the Reapers to harvest them all in given amount of time. Also I believe that the Lawson resisted as hard as killed Cerberus soldiers, and managed to cover in that room. And the Reapers just didn't reach the Lawson yet when Shepard came.

So the Cerberus soldiers resisted the reapers but not TIM's expriments? TIM's are much more weak than the reaper's. And if Cerberus is indoc, aren't the people in it will immidietly become reaper's slaves?

Yet the tech is making people indoc, no? If so, then Lawson should have been indoc way before the reapers arrived. Unless, the tech didn't indoctrinated him. Or anyone else. 

And again, the reapers had plenty of time to reach Lawson. Why didn't they?

I think we are going in circles here 

Agree. We should concentrate on opposing "IT"ers 

[HellishFiend]

Seival wrote...

Agree. We should concentrate on opposing "IT"ers 

That wont do you a lot of good, considering the truth behind the ending was decided long before any of these theories even popped up.  And if you try to talk anyone out of IT based on your rationalizations of the Control ending, you will only be laughed at. Personally (and please dont take offense to this), my suggestion is to enjoy the illusion of control while it lasts. But thats just me. 

[MegaSovereign]

HellishFiend wrote...

Seival wrote...

Agree. We should concentrate on opposing "IT"ers 

That wont do you a lot of good, considering the truth behind the ending was decided long before any of these theories even popped up.  And if you try to talk anyone out of IT based on your rationalizations of the Control ending, you will only be laughed at. Personally (and please dont take offense to this), my suggestion is to enjoy the illusion of control while it lasts. But thats just me. 

Are you implying the IT is fact?

There is a right and wrong way to express your headcanon. Please try not to be so condescending about it.

Oh and if anything, all the press release from Bioware makes it seem like the ending should be taken literally. AKA IT is more than likely not canon.

[HellishFiend]

MegaSovereign wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Seival wrote...

Agree. We should concentrate on opposing "IT"ers 

That wont do you a lot of good, considering the truth behind the ending was decided long before any of these theories even popped up.  And if you try to talk anyone out of IT based on your rationalizations of the Control ending, you will only be laughed at. Personally (and please dont take offense to this), my suggestion is to enjoy the illusion of control while it lasts. But thats just me. 

Are you implying the IT is fact?

There is a right and wrong way to express your headcanon. Please try not to be so condescending about it.

Oh and if anything, all the press release from Bioware makes it seem like the ending should be taken literally. AKA IT is more than likely not canon.

I like how you conveniently ignored my earlier posts where I specifically said I'm not trying to talk anyone out of their beliefs, and then in the quoted post, forgot to highlight the word "Personally" and the phrase "But thats just me", and focus on the part you could attack. I'm perfectly fine leaving you to your beliefs without trying to say that IT is fact. 

[MegaSovereign]

What? All that crap about how you "don't mean to offend anyone" is just extra fluff.

It still reads like "don't hold your breath, I'm right and you're probably wrong."