4520 réponses à ce sujet

[3DandBeyond]

Seival wrote...

With millions upon millions of Reapers at your command you actually have the Ultimate Power. The problem is that using this power will achieve nothing. What will you do with the lesser races? Play with them as "cat with the mouse"? Catalist is not a beast to play such "games".

Shepard can still care about lesser races though. So, Catalist-Shepard can help lesser races to overcome some inevitable catastrophical events (like asteroid threats). I see absolutely no ways to use such power even for Renegade Shepard. Reapers are just too powerfull for that...

You really have no understanding of why people seek power do you.  Often it isn't about using it, it's about having it.  The catalyst (star kid) has been doing just what you say he wouldn't do (he's not a beast to play such "games").  Yes, he is.  He's lied to people, used indoctrination to convince them they will not be harvested, he's been cruel and evil, and used people (hmmm, Saren, TIM), convincing them they can help organics survive.  He sent the Collectors to cause a plague on Omega, that made humans targets for retribution.  He has dead bodies laying all over his "house" and tells Shepard he's not killing people. 

Sovereign and Harbinger both say the reapers are there to destroy people.  The star kid most definitely isn't a kid, but he tries to fool Shepard by appearing in a non-threatening form.  The actions of the reapers at first appear capricious, as if some races or some planets might escape, but the clear intent is the destruction of all advanced organics.  He ignores current examples that make a lie of his circular logic, though he certainly must know of them.  And then, look at what happened to some of the Protheans.  One whole race was convinced if they sacrificed their children, their race would be spared.

There are numerous examples of the reapers and thus the star kid, playing a game with people.  Fundamentally, it involves making someone believe they will be spared when this is not true.

If these weren't games, what were they?

We have some idea that the star kid at his core may believe what he's doing is for some good purpose (not that I care and he may not believe it anyway).  If you think that then it's just as likely that somewhere along the way his programming or his purpose got warped somehow.  It could just as likely have been that millions of years of doing the same things over and over again, or using the power given to him, caused him to go a little bit crazy.

Shepard, even a paragon Shepard is after all human and humans have limits.  Many people start off with the noblest intentions, but given power they do something else entirely, or their own weaknesses become magnified.  Boredom can play a part too.

But power, like money often becomes this --  like a dog chasing its tail.  You have power, but want more and so just having it isn't enough.  At some point, you also want to see what you can do with it.  And with reapers, just what would you do?  Look at the AI on the Citadel.  He was trying to amass money so he could be uploaded to a geth ship.  Look at Project Overlord.  No doubt David Archer was not looking to be all powerful, but look at what he was doing in order to just make it stop.

I personally could envision a Shepard that might want to make Cerberus (those left) pay for lives lost-initially bring them to justice.  Starts out possibly more noble.  But, then where do you stop?  What about those that sought to just make money off the war and did nothing to help?  What about using the reapers to police the peace?  And even so, who would want to see reapers flying around near their planets or in their skies after the billions of lives taken this cycle?  A certain segment of people would want to exact retribution.  Do you send reapers to fight those that are trying to destroy other reapers?

If you control them, you have to be there in some form to oversee them (but we aren't told this).  And one decision leads to another and pretty soon the one controlling them must make decisions they might not otherwise make.  Some say fly them into the Sun-great idea send millions of reapers with untold amounts of stored energy into the Sun with no idea what effect that could have on the galaxy or each star system. 

Those that use and abuse the power they have maybe don't do so for reasons we see as logical or right, but examples exist all throughout history.  There are many cases of people even with noble causes that quickly become abusers of that power.  It happens.

[KingZayd]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Seival wrote...

With millions upon millions of Reapers at your command you actually have the Ultimate Power. The problem is that using this power will achieve nothing. What will you do with the lesser races? Play with them as "cat with the mouse"? Catalist is not a beast to play such "games".

Shepard can still care about lesser races though. So, Catalist-Shepard can help lesser races to overcome some inevitable catastrophical events (like asteroid threats). I see absolutely no ways to use such power even for Renegade Shepard. Reapers are just too powerfull for that...

You really have no understanding of why people seek power do you.  Often it isn't about using it, it's about having it.  The catalyst (star kid) has been doing just what you say he wouldn't do (he's not a beast to play such "games").  Yes, he is.  He's lied to people, used indoctrination to convince them they will not be harvested, he's been cruel and evil, and used people (hmmm, Saren, TIM), convincing them they can help organics survive.  He sent the Collectors to cause a plague on Omega, that made humans targets for retribution.  He has dead bodies laying all over his "house" and tells Shepard he's not killing people. 

Sovereign and Harbinger both say the reapers are there to destroy people.  The star kid most definitely isn't a kid, but he tries to fool Shepard by appearing in a non-threatening form.  The actions of the reapers at first appear capricious, as if some races or some planets might escape, but the clear intent is the destruction of all advanced organics.  He ignores current examples that make a lie of his circular logic, though he certainly must know of them.  And then, look at what happened to some of the Protheans.  One whole race was convinced if they sacrificed their children, their race would be spared.

There are numerous examples of the reapers and thus the star kid, playing a game with people.  Fundamentally, it involves making someone believe they will be spared when this is not true.

If these weren't games, what were they?

We have some idea that the star kid at his core may believe what he's doing is for some good purpose (not that I care and he may not believe it anyway).  If you think that then it's just as likely that somewhere along the way his programming or his purpose got warped somehow.  It could just as likely have been that millions of years of doing the same things over and over again, or using the power given to him, caused him to go a little bit crazy.

Shepard, even a paragon Shepard is after all human and humans have limits.  Many people start off with the noblest intentions, but given power they do something else entirely, or their own weaknesses become magnified.  Boredom can play a part too.

But power, like money often becomes this --  like a dog chasing its tail.  You have power, but want more and so just having it isn't enough.  At some point, you also want to see what you can do with it.  And with reapers, just what would you do?  Look at the AI on the Citadel.  He was trying to amass money so he could be uploaded to a geth ship.  Look at Project Overlord.  No doubt David Archer was not looking to be all powerful, but look at what he was doing in order to just make it stop.

I personally could envision a Shepard that might want to make Cerberus (those left) pay for lives lost-initially bring them to justice.  Starts out possibly more noble.  But, then where do you stop?  What about those that sought to just make money off the war and did nothing to help?  What about using the reapers to police the peace?  And even so, who would want to see reapers flying around near their planets or in their skies after the billions of lives taken this cycle?  A certain segment of people would want to exact retribution.  Do you send reapers to fight those that are trying to destroy other reapers?

If you control them, you have to be there in some form to oversee them (but we aren't told this).  And one decision leads to another and pretty soon the one controlling them must make decisions they might not otherwise make.  Some say fly them into the Sun-great idea send millions of reapers with untold amounts of stored energy into the Sun with no idea what effect that could have on the galaxy or each star system. 

Those that use and abuse the power they have maybe don't do so for reasons we see as logical or right, but examples exist all throughout history.  There are many cases of people even with noble causes that quickly become abusers of that power.  It happens.

+1

Except, a lot of people want power because they think they'll be able to do whatever they want.

The others, who are just obsessed with having power itself aren't going to be the ones who'll not abuse it either as they'll want to relish it every once in a while a the very least.

[Seival]

Well, maybe It's just me after all. I really disagree with all power-abuse arguments, and just can't see how such a power can be abused at all... Unless the person in charge is completely insane.

I think that the original Catalist also was a living being once. One of those, who created the first Reapers, and started the Cycles. And I think the original Catalist was insane before it became the Catalist. And Shepard's victory was about forcing the original Catalist to understand, that it was wrong. I believe that Shepard-Catalist will never become a "god player" like the original one, or something worse... No matter Paragon or Renegade.

...Well, and if there are people, who prefer to roleplay psychopath... My opinion is that such players just didn't learn anything from the Trilogy's stroy. Believe me or not, but the story is really instructive in the entire Trilogy.

Modifié par Seival, 21 juin 2012 - 05:25 .

[Mingolo]

I'm sure most people did understand the messages that the game had, but in my case, I just choose to ignore them most of them. Because the game developers think this, this, and that and based their game on those themes, it doesn't mean that's necessarily what need to think too.

This discussion is spilling over into talk about human nature. You probably believe that people are naturally good and only do bad things when they're forced to or are kind of crazy, don't you? Well, I have a completely different philosophy, I believe the natural state of MOST humans is evil and selfish, and only the comforts and limits of modern society make people into these well behaved animals that help each other. That that away though, for example, in a natural disaster that levels your town (ex: Katrina), and looting, crime and violence becomes rampant.

About the reapers, they only seem like the "Ultimate Power" because they are much more advanced than organics. Take this quote, "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Any technology that is centuries ahead of yours, will seem god-like and unreachable. The flip side of that, however, is that if the owners of that "power" stop advancing, but give you centuries of unchecked advance in your own technology, you will eventually catch up to them, and surpass them, since it is, after all, just a more advanced technology.

Should Shepard just fly around with his reapers helping people and not do anything, organics will eventually reach his level of technology and he wouldn't have the "Ultimate Power" anymore, maybe some species would even see him as threat and go to war with the to destroy them. More importantly though, anyone who wanted to make sure they keep their "Ultimate Power," would need to research new technologies very rapidly so they can upgrade their weapons and technology regularly, and make sure they stay centuries ahead of organics. What is needed for research? Research facilities, factories to make prototypes along with the materials to make prototypes, test subjects, etc...all of which require resources to make or buy.

Also, reapers travel, shoot guns, and process data, all that requires big amounts of energy, you can't make energy out of nothing. The energy source of reapers may need a ot less replenishing than the resources of citadel races, but without a doubt...they require some sort of fuel to be able to even move.

Finally, whether they or not, if the reapers stay in the galaxy to help people, they will get into some armed conflicts...because that's just the nature of things, ppl get pissed off or want something and attack someone, then the reapers might need to come help. They are strong, but as we saw in ME3 not invincible, they will lose some ships in these random armed conflicts. Others will be lose on accidents, maybe some will have mechanical or computer failures. In the short term it won't be too much...but as you add it up over centuries they're numbers will severely decrease if they don't replenish them. Anyone who wanted to keep this "Ultimate Power" they obtained, would need to regularly make more reapers to replenish the ones that will undoubtedly be lost to random events, which will require large amounts of resources, both sentient and non-sentient.

Modifié par Mingolo, 21 juin 2012 - 06:06 .

[Seival]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Seival wrote...

With millions upon millions of Reapers at your command you actually have the Ultimate Power. The problem is that using this power will achieve nothing. What will you do with the lesser races? Play with them as "cat with the mouse"? Catalist is not a beast to play such "games".

Shepard can still care about lesser races though. So, Catalist-Shepard can help lesser races to overcome some inevitable catastrophical events (like asteroid threats). I see absolutely no ways to use such power even for Renegade Shepard. Reapers are just too powerfull for that...

You really have no understanding of why people seek power do you.  Often it isn't about using it, it's about having it.  The catalyst (star kid) has been doing just what you say he wouldn't do (he's not a beast to play such "games").  Yes, he is.  He's lied to people, used indoctrination to convince them they will not be harvested, he's been cruel and evil, and used people (hmmm, Saren, TIM), convincing them they can help organics survive.  He sent the Collectors to cause a plague on Omega, that made humans targets for retribution.  He has dead bodies laying all over his "house" and tells Shepard he's not killing people. 

Sovereign and Harbinger both say the reapers are there to destroy people.  The star kid most definitely isn't a kid, but he tries to fool Shepard by appearing in a non-threatening form.  The actions of the reapers at first appear capricious, as if some races or some planets might escape, but the clear intent is the destruction of all advanced organics.  He ignores current examples that make a lie of his circular logic, though he certainly must know of them.  And then, look at what happened to some of the Protheans.  One whole race was convinced if they sacrificed their children, their race would be spared.

There are numerous examples of the reapers and thus the star kid, playing a game with people.  Fundamentally, it involves making someone believe they will be spared when this is not true.

If these weren't games, what were they?

We have some idea that the star kid at his core may believe what he's doing is for some good purpose (not that I care and he may not believe it anyway).  If you think that then it's just as likely that somewhere along the way his programming or his purpose got warped somehow.  It could just as likely have been that millions of years of doing the same things over and over again, or using the power given to him, caused him to go a little bit crazy.

Shepard, even a paragon Shepard is after all human and humans have limits.  Many people start off with the noblest intentions, but given power they do something else entirely, or their own weaknesses become magnified.  Boredom can play a part too.

But power, like money often becomes this --  like a dog chasing its tail.  You have power, but want more and so just having it isn't enough.  At some point, you also want to see what you can do with it.  And with reapers, just what would you do?  Look at the AI on the Citadel.  He was trying to amass money so he could be uploaded to a geth ship.  Look at Project Overlord.  No doubt David Archer was not looking to be all powerful, but look at what he was doing in order to just make it stop.

I personally could envision a Shepard that might want to make Cerberus (those left) pay for lives lost-initially bring them to justice.  Starts out possibly more noble.  But, then where do you stop?  What about those that sought to just make money off the war and did nothing to help?  What about using the reapers to police the peace?  And even so, who would want to see reapers flying around near their planets or in their skies after the billions of lives taken this cycle?  A certain segment of people would want to exact retribution.  Do you send reapers to fight those that are trying to destroy other reapers?

If you control them, you have to be there in some form to oversee them (but we aren't told this).  And one decision leads to another and pretty soon the one controlling them must make decisions they might not otherwise make.  Some say fly them into the Sun-great idea send millions of reapers with untold amounts of stored energy into the Sun with no idea what effect that could have on the galaxy or each star system. 

Those that use and abuse the power they have maybe don't do so for reasons we see as logical or right, but examples exist all throughout history.  There are many cases of people even with noble causes that quickly become abusers of that power.  It happens.

I think that what you said is just one more proof that only mad man can abuse the power.

Those were not games, those were crimes made by insane person. I believe that original Catalist was insane before it became Catalist. It was an insane living being, and its insanity passed to the AI it became.

Shepard is not insane. And after becoming the new Catalist she lost all living being disadvantages which could be a weak spot for possible corruption in the future. And her sanity passed to the AI she became.

...I think it's as simple as that.

[Anti-killer]

I've always thought that Control could go 2 ways:

If you're Paragon, Shepard uses the Reapers to help rebuild the galaxy and defends it with his life.

if you're Renegade, Shepard becomes a massive douch and continues the cycle, or just leaves the galaxy as it is and joyrides through the universe.

[Seival]

Mingolo wrote...

I'm sure most people did understand the messages that the game had, but in my case, I just choose to ignore them most of them. Because the game developers think this, this, and that and based their game on those themes, it doesn't mean that's necessarily what need to think too.

This discussion is spilling over into talk about human nature. You probably believe that people are naturally good and only do bad things when they're forced to or are kind of crazy, don't you? Well, I have a completely different philosophy, I believe the natural state of MOST humans is evil and selfish, and only the comforts and limits of modern society make people into these well behaved animals that help each other. That that away though, for example, in a natural disaster that levels your town (ex: Katrina), and looting, crime and violence becomes rampant.

About the reapers, they only seem like the "Ultimate Power" because they are much more advanced than organics. Take this quote, "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Any technology that is centuries ahead of yours, will seem god-like and unreachable. The flip side of that, however, is that if the owners of that "power" stop advancing, but give you centuries of unchecked advance in your own technology, you will eventually catch up to them, and surpass them, since it is, after all, just a more advanced technology.

Should Shepard just fly around with his reapers helping people and not do anything, organics will eventually reach his level of technology and he wouldn't have the "Ultimate Power" anymore, maybe some species would even see him as threat and go to war with the to destroy them. More importantly though, anyone who wanted to make sure they keep their "Ultimate Power," would need to research new technologies very rapidly so they can upgrade their weapons and technology regularly, and make sure they stay centuries ahead of organics. What is needed for research? Research facilities, factories to make prototypes along with the materials to make prototypes, test subjects, etc...all of which require resources to make or buy.

Also, reapers travel, shoot guns, and process data, all that requires big amounts of energy, you can't make energy out of nothing. The energy source of reapers may need a ot less replenishing than the resources of citadel races, but without a doubt...they require some sort of fuel to be able to even move.

Finally, whether they or not, if the reapers stay in the galaxy to help people, they will get into some armed conflicts...because that's just the nature of things, ppl get pissed off or want something and attack someone, then the reapers might need to come help. They are strong, but as we saw in ME3 not invincible, they will lose some ships in these random armed conflicts. Others will be lose on accidents, maybe some will have mechanical or computer failures. In the short term it won't be too much...but as you add it up over centuries they're numbers will severely decrease if they don't replenish them. Anyone who wanted to keep this "Ultimate Power" they obtained, would need to regularly make more reapers to replenish the ones that will undoubtedly be lost to random events, which will require large amounts of resources, both sentient and non-sentient.

I believe that civilized people are indeed naturally good. By civilized I mean very advanced mentally and spiritually, not technologically. Shepard looks civilized. Even Renegade. Renegade =/= evil or insane. Renagade just has different methods than Paragon. But both make some choices and sacrifices for the greater good... By the way, Mordin Solus is actually a very good example of true Renegade in ME Trilogy.

...Also I belive that not-civilized people are insane no matter how technologically advanced they are. Such people need treatment, not a respect.

About the Reapers... That's the point! Shepard-Catalist just fly around with its Reapers helping people and not do anything, and organics will eventually reach its level of technology... and will have no reasons to abuse that power. Because they will gain nothing by abusing it... And if some mad organic will start to "play god", Shepard can use the Reapers to calm this mad mad down. It will be easy enough, because mad man always have strong opposition in "his own house".

[Seival]

Anti-killer wrote...

I've always thought that Control could go 2 ways:

If you're Paragon, Shepard uses the Reapers to help rebuild the galaxy and defends it with his life.

if you're Renegade, Shepard becomes a massive douch and continues the cycle, or just leaves the galaxy as it is and joyrides through the universe.

I don't think Renegade will ever want to start the Cycles again. The difference between Paragon and Renegade will be (as always) in methods of achieving some goals.

Let's say there is a large conflict between two groups of humans. A local planetary war is about to start:

Paragon Shepard-Catalist. Moves some Reaper's capital ships to the planet's surface. Contact both sides of the conflict and states that if the conflict will not end now, those Reapers will be used as a peacekeepers to prevent fire from both sides.

Renegade Shepard-Catalist. Moves some Reaper's capital ships to the planet's surface. Contact both sides of the conflict and states that if the conflict will not end now, it will track and capture both sides' leaders, and then turn them into hasks.

[mass perfection]

Anti-killer wrote...

I've always thought that Control could go 2 ways:

If you're Paragon, Shepard uses the Reapers to help rebuild the galaxy and defends it with his life.

if you're Renegade, Shepard becomes a massive douch and continues the cycle, or just leaves the galaxy as it is and joyrides through the universe.

That's what I've been going with.

[Vox Draco]

mass perfection wrote...

Anti-killer wrote...

I've always thought that Control could go 2 ways:

If you're Paragon, Shepard uses the Reapers to help rebuild the galaxy and defends it with his life.

if you're Renegade, Shepard becomes a massive douch and continues the cycle, or just leaves the galaxy as it is and joyrides through the universe.

That's what I've been going with.

And in both cases, all my mind can think of is "Diablo"...the hero that put the Soulstone in his head to "contain" Diablo's soul, only to become him...or the horadric mage TalRasha, who did the same with Baal, imprisoned with the Archdevil for thousand years, his soul and body writhing in eternal agony and pain...

No...Control can only "work" if Shepard stays Shepard, with all memories, morales and feelings intact. And that means control punishes the hero with eternal torment...ever thinking about what she once had and lost and never will regain again...and for what? To rebuild/preserve som Mass Relays or self-proclaimed sentient programs? If that is the prize to win it is not worth to condemn a single human life to this torture...yet alone Shepards...The galaxy does better without the Reapers and with a living Shepard, as far as I am concerned...

I will always fail to see the apeal of control...I realyl tried, but it just won't work for my headcanon...

[iHorizons]

Garbage!!!!

[incinerator950]

iHorizons wrote...

Garbage!!!!

The community, the board, the endings, or the game?

[Grimwick]

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

It is a ridiculous notion that Shepard wouldn't be changed by having so much control. He may start off with good intentions but in time things will change and mistakes will be made. And when those mistakes involve a huge race of hyper-advanced killing machines... you have a problem.

[Ageless Face]

Control is not about paragon-renegade. There are too many different outcomes to it.

A certain Shepard can want to be a peace keeper, someone else will want the reapers to fly into the sun. Another Shepard will make all the synthetics to die. Another Shepard will kill organics and continue the cycle.

Another Shepard will want to rule the galaxy.

It's not being insane. It's wanting the ultimute power. It's part of human nature. Once you will be handed a tool to get to that power, few will be able to resist. Maybe a certain Shepard always wanted to rule the galaxy? Thought everyone were beneath her/him? Maybe s/he thought that only humans are able to rule. Why wouldn't Shepard do that? There's nothing stopping him/her now. It's not insanity. It's beeing... Ethically wrong. I don't agree with that sort of power abusing. But it's just stupid to say every Shepard will do some good with the reapers. Because it's not true. Not everyone play the same Shepard.

[Mingolo]

Seival wrote...

I believe that civilized people are indeed naturally good. By civilized I mean very advanced mentally and spiritually, not technologically. Shepard looks civilized. Even Renegade. Renegade =/= evil or insane. Renagade just has different methods than Paragon. But both make some choices and sacrifices for the greater good... By the way, Mordin Solus is actually a very good example of true Renegade in ME Trilogy.

...Also I belive that not-civilized people are insane no matter how technologically advanced they are. Such people need treatment, not a respect.

About the Reapers... That's the point! Shepard-Catalist just fly around with its Reapers helping people and not do anything, and organics will eventually reach its level of technology... and will have no reasons to abuse that power. Because they will gain nothing by abusing it... And if some mad organic will start to "play god", Shepard can use the Reapers to calm this mad mad down. It will be easy enough, because mad man always have strong opposition in "his own house".

Hmm...so you think Shepard would have an army of invincible death machines at his disposal, but only use it to go around helping people and doing good deeds, and then let his newly acquired power evaporate away as organics catch up, not minding in the least about his loss because he doesn't really care about it?

Yeah....umm, I think you confused Shepard with Jesus. If only the world worked that way...it would be so boring.

[KingZayd]

HagarIshay wrote...

Control is not about paragon-renegade. There are too many different outcomes to it.

A certain Shepard can want to be a peace keeper, someone else will want the reapers to fly into the sun. Another Shepard will make all the synthetics to die. Another Shepard will kill organics and continue the cycle.

Another Shepard will want to rule the galaxy.

It's not being insane. It's wanting the ultimute power. It's part of human nature. Once you will be handed a tool to get to that power, few will be able to resist. Maybe a certain Shepard always wanted to rule the galaxy? Thought everyone were beneath her/him? Maybe s/he thought that only humans are able to rule. Why wouldn't Shepard do that? There's nothing stopping him/her now. It's not insanity. It's beeing... Ethically wrong. I don't agree with that sort of power abusing. But it's just stupid to say every Shepard will do some good with the reapers. Because it's not true. Not everyone play the same Shepard.

+1, except it's even more difficult than that. All it requires is that Shepard be ethically imperfect.

[Lord Goose]

if you're Renegade, Shepard becomes a massive douch
and continues the cycle, or just leaves the galaxy as it is
and joyrides through the universe.

I do not think that true renegade can choose control at all. True renegade is completely organic-biased, and choosing to become machine like Catalyst is nothing but a suicide.

[Seival]

Grimwick wrote...

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

It is a ridiculous notion that Shepard wouldn't be changed by having so much control. He may start off with good intentions but in time things will change and mistakes will be made. And when those mistakes involve a huge race of hyper-advanced killing machines... you have a problem.

The difference between us is that unlike you I believe that absolute power comes with absolute responcibility. And only insane person may do something insane using such power.

Shepard is not insane as a human. And there are no reasons for her to become insane as the new Catalist. The Catalist is a hyper advanced AI with unlimeted processing power and no fragile-living-being body disadvantages. So Shepard-Catalist just can't become insane.

[KingZayd]

Lord Goose wrote...

if you're Renegade, Shepard becomes a massive douch
and continues the cycle, or just leaves the galaxy as it is
and joyrides through the universe.

I do not think that true renegade can choose control at all. True renegade is completely organic-biased, and choosing to become machine like Catalyst is nothing but a suicide.

on what basis is a true renegade completely organic biased? a true renegade could be completely self-biased and therefore crave the immense power that comes with the reapers.

[Ageless Face]

Seival wrote...

The difference between us is that unlike you I believe that absolute power comes with absolute responcibility. And only insane person may do something insane using such power.

Shepard is not insane as a human. And there are no reasons for her to become insane as the new Catalist. The Catalist is a hyper advanced AI with unlimeted processing power and no fragile-living-being body disadvantages. So Shepard-Catalist just can't become insane.

Using power for bad things is not insanity. It's being a horrible person. Shepard can be a horrible person.

Insanity is too much of a vauge word. You say insanity is to use power for bad things. I say insanity is a person that talks gibberish and walks around in circles all day long. Someone else will say an insane person is a guy who will shoot another because he didn't find him usefull.

Do you know how many people used their powers for bad things? Many. They are not nececerally insane.

Was Mordin insane by modifying the genophage? No. He did an ethically wrong move, but he was not insane.

Was TIM insane by wanting to control the reapers for his own benefiets? He wasn't. He wanted to make an ethically wrong act. But he WAS NOT insane by wanting it.

We saw in ME2 how close Liara was to start using the Shadow Broker's intel for her own benefiets. Hell, she said herself the only thing that will keep her focused is Shepard's mission. And Liara is one of the good people in Mass Effect. She can be easily corrpted... What's stopping from a Shepard that always killed people simply because he wanted to do so, using the reapers for his own benefiets?

Nothing, really.

Modifié par HagarIshay, 22 juin 2012 - 11:34 .

[Seival]

HagarIshay wrote...

Seival wrote...

The difference between us is that unlike you I believe that absolute power comes with absolute responcibility. And only insane person may do something insane using such power.

Shepard is not insane as a human. And there are no reasons for her to become insane as the new Catalist. The Catalist is a hyper advanced AI with unlimeted processing power and no fragile-living-being body disadvantages. So Shepard-Catalist just can't become insane.

Using power for bad things is not insanity. It's being a horrible person. Shepard can be a horrible person.

Insanity is too much of a vauge word. You say insanity is to use power for bad things. I say insanity is a person that talks gibberish and walks around in circles all day long. Someone else will say an insane person is a guy who will shoot another because he didn't find him usefull.

Do you know how many people used their powers for bad things? Many. They are not nececerally insane.

Was Mordin insane by modifying the genophage? No. He did an ethically wrong move, but he was not insane.

Was TIM insane by wanting to control the reapers for his own benefiets? He wasn't. He wanted to make an ethically wrong act. But he WAS NOT insane by wanting it.

We saw in ME2 how close Liara was to start using the Shadow Broker's intel for her own benefiets. Hell, she said herself the only thing that will keep her focused is Shepard's mission. And Liara is one of the good people in Mass Effect. She can be easily corrpted... What's stopping from a Shepard that always killed people simply because he wanted to do so, using the reapers for his own benefiets?

Nothing, really.

Yes, TIM was a Renegade, not an insane person. That's why I think that even TIM would abandon his idea to use the Reapers to place the humanity above all other races if he could became the Catalist. Why? Because there will be no point in that anymore. Galactic Civilization is so far below the Catalist and the Reapers. 

Having millions upon millions of the Reapers TIM will not be interested in shaping so small and fragile Galactic Civilization. Galactic Civilization will be like a "anthill" to him... But he might want to preserve the "anthill" from threats like a "fire".

...Ask yourself, what will you do if you will have an anthill not far away from your house. I think, that you will do nothing. Or maybe you will approach it to observe it sometimes. Will you try to save the ants from some stupid kids who may try to burn them?

Modifié par Seival, 22 juin 2012 - 12:37 .

[Ageless Face]

Seival wrote...

Yes, TIM was a Renegade, not an insane person. That's why I think that even TIM would abandon his idea to use the Reapers to place the humanity above all other races if he could became the Catalist. Why? Because there will be no point in that anymore. Galactic Civilization is so far below the Catalist and the Reapers. 

Having millions upon millions of the Reapers TIM will not be interested in shaping so small and fragile Galactic Civilization. Galactic Civilization will be like a "anthill" to him... But he might want to preserve the "anthill" from threats like a "fire".

...Ask yourself, what will you do if you will have an anthill not far away from your house. I think, that you will do nothing. Or maybe you will approach it to observe it sometimes. Will you try to save the ants from some stupid kids who may try to burn them?

What? Where have you got that from? Why wouldn't there be a point to it? TIM doesn't want to place himself on top. He wants to place all humans on top. He could get that with the reapers. There is a very big point in using the reapers.

If galactic civilization is so below the catalyst, then he wouldn't have all of that "solution" for the synthetic/organic problem, no would he? He wouldn't even talk to shepard when she comes. Why does the catalyst needs to bother himself with the organics, if they are so uninmoprtant?

You also forget that the catalyst is not an organic, when Shepard  and TIM are. Even if the catalyst doesn't care about galactic civilization, Shepard and TIM do. If both of them would stay as they are, they WILL care about galactic society and the poeple in it. Otherwise, Shepard would not even protect the galaxy when they'll need to, and that makes all of our assumptions of Shepard defending the galaxy as false.

I believe Shepard will stay the same. So, Shepard will do what s/he wants with the reapers. Wether it is to protect, fly them off, or rule the galaxy with them. 

[Memnon]

Seival wrote...
The difference between us is that unlike you I believe that absolute power comes with absolute responcibility. And only insane person may do something insane using such power.

Then you don't understand human nature - in both modern day and throughout history, people who are not insane and for all practical appearances good and decent people have been corrupted by the power they wield. To assume that even a paragon Shepard would use his power for good for eternity is naive - and Shepard himself would be the first to say that he should not be the source of such power.

Modifié par Stornskar, 22 juin 2012 - 01:32 .

[Lord Goose]

on what basis is a true renegade completely organic biased?

True renegade line always demean synthetics. Usually, renegade address them as "it", "things" etc.

a true renegade could be completely self-biased and therefore crave the immense power that comes with the reapers.

Well, in ME3 Renegade objects idea of control more severe than paragon does. On Mars and Thessia, Renegade clearly express desire to destroy the Reapers, while Paragon lines are more ambigous. Like "get rid of them" vs "stop them".

[llbountyhunter]

Lord Goose wrote...

on what basis is a true renegade completely organic biased?

True renegade line always demean synthetics. Usually, renegade address them as "it", "things" etc.

a true renegade could be completely self-biased and therefore crave the immense power that comes with the reapers.

Well, in ME3 Renegade objects idea of control more severe than paragon does. On Mars and Thessia, Renegade clearly express desire to destroy the Reapers, while Paragon lines are more ambigous. Like "get rid of them" vs "stop them".

Regenade shepards is demeaning to organics too... pretty much everybody.