4520 réponses à ce sujet

[Seboist]

Leafs43 wrote...

If you side with TIM, you're doing it wrong.

It's like mario siding with Bowser and letting Bowser marry Peach.

It's like Link saying Gannon had the right idea all along.

It's like saying the Sniper and Spy from TF2 are best friends.

That's what happens when ME ends up a linear popamole shooter written by hack writers and not an actual RPG with choices with at least the same degree of writing competence of a T rated JRPG. We would have had control making sense within the context of the story and for that matter synthesis wouldn't have been an asspull out of nowhere.

Modifié par Seboist, 27 mai 2012 - 09:42 .

[Ageless Face]

Seboist wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

If you side with TIM, you're doing it wrong.

It's like mario siding with Bowser and letting Bowser marry Peach.

It's like Link saying Gannon had the right idea all along.

It's like saying the Sniper and Spy from TF2 are best friends.

That's what happens when ME ends up a linear popamole shooter written by hack writers and not an actual RPG with choices with at least the same degree of writing competence of a T rated JRPG. We would have had control making sense within the context of the story and for that matter synthesis wouldn't have been an asspull out of nowhere.

How is that conected to anything? You are giving choices at the end, this is RPG. And if people chose control, it means we agree with it. Just becasue the antagonist also thought it was the right idea, does not necessarily means the choice should have been taken out of the game. If fact, I believe it's add the choice more character. 

Modifié par HagarIshay, 27 mai 2012 - 09:47 .

[Seival]

Omega2079 wrote...

Seival wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

And seriously how do you control something when you're dead?

So, you've finally understood that Shepard actually survived as a new Catalist in Control Ending

How do you come to the conclusion that Shepard lives?

Simple... 

 (1) Control = monitoring the situation and giving orders when needed.
 (2) Reapers obey only current Catalist's orders.
 (3) Shepard was given a way to control the Reapers.
 (4) Reapers stopped attacking and gone away in Control Ending.

...Do you still have any doubts that Shepard really survived as a new Catalist? I don't think so

Modifié par Seival, 27 mai 2012 - 09:53 .

[Archontor]

Seival wrote...

Archontor wrote...

Seival wrote...

Archontor wrote...

How does Shep control them, he's did, he vaporised on considerable pain whilst surrounded by lightning. If it really was brain uploading they'd just strap some electrodes to their head and fall over dead.

More and more people are starting to realize that Shepard becomes a new Catalist in control ending

 

Didn't answer a thing, if you get vaporised you die. 

More importantly Shep becomes another genocidal ****. 

That's more than a defeat it's just depressing.

As a new Catalist, Shepard keeps her personality. You can see the proof of it in the ending itself - Reapers go away, remaining under full Shepard's control. I just can't call this "Shepard died" no matter Shepard lost her body. I can call it only "Shepard survived, and become heavily upgraded". Citadel is her new body. Beautiful, isn't it?

Except the Catalyst exactly states that you will loose everything you are. Moreover your just using headcannon as an answer. I could just as easily say that they received Shep's tactical skill and pulled back to regroup you know in that giant in penetrable fortress filled with people to make reapers out of.

My headcannon is bigger than yours.

[Fixers0]

Lol at femshep bias.

[Seival]

Archontor wrote...

Seival wrote...

Archontor wrote...

Seival wrote...

Archontor wrote...

How does Shep control them, he's did, he vaporised on considerable pain whilst surrounded by lightning. If it really was brain uploading they'd just strap some electrodes to their head and fall over dead.

More and more people are starting to realize that Shepard becomes a new Catalist in control ending

 

Didn't answer a thing, if you get vaporised you die. 

More importantly Shep becomes another genocidal ****. 

That's more than a defeat it's just depressing.

As a new Catalist, Shepard keeps her personality. You can see the proof of it in the ending itself - Reapers go away, remaining under full Shepard's control. I just can't call this "Shepard died" no matter Shepard lost her body. I can call it only "Shepard survived, and become heavily upgraded". Citadel is her new body. Beautiful, isn't it?

Except the Catalyst exactly states that you will loose everything you are. Moreover your just using headcannon as an answer. I could just as easily say that they received Shep's tactical skill and pulled back to regroup you know in that giant in penetrable fortress filled with people to make reapers out of.

My headcannon is bigger than yours.

Pulled back? From who? A United Fleet that can't do any real damage to them?

The entire United Fleet was just a distraction, nothing more.

By "loose everything" and "die" Catalist meant human body and everything that comes with it. If it was not the case, then Catalist could just say - "you will die" and add nothing to it.

Modifié par Seival, 27 mai 2012 - 10:06 .

[Costin_Razvan]

The Relays aren't blown up in Control. They are damaged, but whether or not they won't work anymore is anyone's guess.

[Archontor]

Seival wrote...

Archontor wrote...

Seival wrote...

Archontor wrote...

Seival wrote...

Archontor wrote...

How does Shep control them, he's did, he vaporised on considerable pain whilst surrounded by lightning. If it really was brain uploading they'd just strap some electrodes to their head and fall over dead.

More and more people are starting to realize that Shepard becomes a new Catalist in control ending

 

Didn't answer a thing, if you get vaporised you die. 

More importantly Shep becomes another genocidal ****. 

That's more than a defeat it's just depressing.

As a new Catalist, Shepard keeps her personality. You can see the proof of it in the ending itself - Reapers go away, remaining under full Shepard's control. I just can't call this "Shepard died" no matter Shepard lost her body. I can call it only "Shepard survived, and become heavily upgraded". Citadel is her new body. Beautiful, isn't it?

Except the Catalyst exactly states that you will loose everything you are. Moreover your just using headcannon as an answer. I could just as easily say that they received Shep's tactical skill and pulled back to regroup you know in that giant in penetrable fortress filled with people to make reapers out of.

My headcannon is bigger than yours.

Pull back? From what? A united fleet that can't do any real damage to them?

The entire United Fleet was just a distraction, nothing more.

By "loose everything" and "die" Catalist meant human body and everything that comes with it. If it was not the case, then Catalist could just say - "you will die" and add nothing to it.

Actually they would pull back for a number of reasons. There are enough ships to seriously dmage and or kill many many Reapers even sovreign type before being exterminated (espescially if they do those suicide nuje things like palaven) combined with Liara's chests of information there is a great potential for the next cycle to develop enough to roflstomp them. If they just sit back the fractured races (now devoid of mass relays) will squable for land and resources, those that don't die of starvation and illness or the effects of eezo contamination/ stray shots during the battle that hit earth will see new divisions and they'll either go to war seriously weakening their forces or just have to demilitarise to free up resources to feed the people stuck on earth. At that point you charge in and kill them all suffering minimal losses and pry the location of liara's databoxes. Shep would know.

And no lose everything you are means more than die. Death as you have pointed out can simply mean biological death, people have survived being 'dead' for a few hours and do so commonly. To lose everything you are sounds like a more metaphysical loss of your memories or opinions or personality, in essence it strips the organic facets from you and lets you become a cold collection of uninflected experiences and imoral logic that provides logistical control but dosen't take moral authority.

Hey your right he does become the catalyst.

[Seboist]

HagarIshay wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Leafs43 wrote...

If you side with TIM, you're doing it wrong.

It's like mario siding with Bowser and letting Bowser marry Peach.

It's like Link saying Gannon had the right idea all along.

It's like saying the Sniper and Spy from TF2 are best friends.

That's what happens when ME ends up a linear popamole shooter written by hack writers and not an actual RPG with choices with at least the same degree of writing competence of a T rated JRPG. We would have had control making sense within the context of the story and for that matter synthesis wouldn't have been an asspull out of nowhere.

How is that conected to anything? You are giving choices at the end, this is RPG. And if people chose control, it means we agree with it. Just becasue the antagonist also thought it was the right idea, does not necessarily means the choice should have been taken out of the game. If fact, I believe it's add the choice more character. 

So, you see absolutely nothing wrong with Shepard having spent the entire game telling TIM to F off about the "insanity" of control and raving about how he's going to destroy the reapers only to make a complete reversal at the last moment?

The "three choices" at the end are just a hack imitation of Deus Ex's but unlike in that game there's no proper setup to the non-destroy endings.

[MerchantGOL]

The Illusive man was shown that he was right during sanctuary, so to say their was no set up was false.

[Bad King]

HagarIshay wrote...

Bad King wrote...


True, but control does seem to be more in line with the renegade ideals to me- its about ambition and harnessing dangerous reaper tech for the good of the galaxy (which is in line with preserving the collector base in ME2). The paragon ideal when it comes to reaper tech is more about caution and disdain towards the technology itself (which was the main reason why destroying the collector base was a paragon decision).

The fact that going renegade in ME2 points you towards achieving Control in ME3 is further evidence for this. Of course, the paragon and renegade paths are both very inconsistent, but the general trend of these paths does point to control being the more renegade option in my view.

I don't really think the destruction of the reaper base is about the reapers, not exactly. It's more about giving TIM the inforamtion or not. Throughout all ME2, paragon Shepard only disagreed with TIM. It's no wonder that in the final choice- Wether to leave the base intact or not and let cerberus study it- it's paragon Shepard who does decide to let the base be destroyed. If the base was left to the Alliance you can bet Shepard would have let them study it as they pleased. I can say for sure I would left the base intact if it was not TIM who wanted it.

That was never the main motivation for it as presented at the end of the game, see the following quotations:

"They liquified people, turned them into something horrible, we have to destroy the base!" -- Shepard

"I'm not so sure. Seeing it firsthand... using anything from this base seems like a betrayal." -- Miranda

"No matter what kind of technology we might find, it's not worth it." -- Shepard

"We'll fight and win without it. I won't let fear compromise who I am." -- Shepard

"Too many lives were lost at that base. I'm not sorry it's gone." -- Shepard

While you do briefly have the option of questioning TIM's motivations, the bulk of the reasoning revolves around the ethical questions and the dangers of using dangerous, even corrupted technology. The same paragon-esque argument can be applied to control- even if they are used for good, the reapers still slaughtered millions and were created by liquifying entire species: using them would be unethical in the paragon view. And control is a risk just like keeping the collector base was a risk- it's dabbling with tech we don't fully understand. So in my view, a paragon would be less inclined to pick this option (I however am personally more of a renegade player so control is a valid option for me).

Modifié par Bad King, 27 mai 2012 - 10:37 .

[xsdob]

Anyone interested in making this a group instead of a forum thread?

[MerchantGOL]

why not both

[justafan]

While I prefer Destroy, as long as your not choosing synthesis you have my support. Control has a lot of things going for it, namely the Geth still alive, and the relays not totally annihilated. If it weren't for all the unknowns associated with "dying, controlling, but losing everything" I would likely have chosen it.

[Zix13]

CSly wrote...

I picked control. I haven't seen a rational rebuttal to control that didn't rely on speculation and assumption. If we're meant to take everything the starchild says at face value, then control is the obvious choice--war ended, no genocide.

The problem is that you have to make huge assumptions to determine that control is viable. Given what we know about the reapers, lasting control by an organic is impossible. Not enough information, probability of success is low. Also, this involves taking everything the starchild says at face value, which is.... stupid.

[MerchantGOL]

^ if it was any one but shepard i'd agree but shepard has shown to be the will power nesiscary

in my mind, Shepard simply looses his body and becomes the new catalyst.

The people who are obsessed with a happy ending should tell them selves that he/she will just build a body like edi's and upload his/her consciousnesses into it.

Modifié par MerchantGOL, 28 mai 2012 - 12:58 .

[Shallyah]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Lets totally forget that after choosing the Control ending the starbrat is shown with a semblance of a smile on his space face..

Starbrat: 'Finally another ****** fell into the "you're the first one to get here, you changed the possibilities" scam. Seriously, I could use some vacations...'

Modifié par Shallyah, 28 mai 2012 - 01:08 .

[MegaSovereign]

mauro2222 wrote...

The fact that Shepard, EDI, and Tali survived Destroy.
And the idiotic comment of StarChild about apex of evolution in synthesis and "there will be peace", makes me doubt about "You can control us".

EDI DID NOT SURVIVE THE DESTROY ENDING.

I searched ALL over the internet for proof and still have not found a video showing it. Not only that, I dedicated an entire playthrough to get EDI to walk out of my destroy ending, AND IT NEVER HAPPENED.

/capsrage


Why wouldn't tali survive? She's an organics. Oh and the destroy ending only destroys synthetic life, not synthetic tech. FYI

[Kunari801]

Seival wrote...

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

And seriously how do you control something when you're dead?

So, you've finally understood that Shepard actually survived as a new Catalist in Control Ending

If that was true, but we don't know, it's not shown in the ending that  Star-brat is replaced by ghost-Shepard.  

[fongiel24]

If I remember correctly, the Catalyst is somewhat vague on whether it's just AIs that will be destroyed or synthetic tech in general. It does specifically point out that Shepard's body is heavily dependent on synthetic tech though so I'm inclined to believe it wasn't just talking about AIs. Since Tali's suit also relies heavily on technology to keep her alive, I'd say there's a possibility that if the Catalyst is telling the truth, choosing the Destroy option could kill Tali as well as the AIs.

[Shallyah]

fongiel24 wrote...

If I remember correctly, the Catalyst is somewhat vague on whether it's just AIs that will be destroyed or synthetic tech in general. It does specifically point out that Shepard's body is heavily dependent on synthetic tech though so I'm inclined to believe it wasn't just talking about AIs. Since Tali's suit also relies heavily on technology to keep her alive, I'd say there's a possibility that if the Catalyst is telling the truth, choosing the Destroy option could kill Tali as well as the AIs.

Tali walks out of the Normandy in my canon ending just fine, but you can keep missleading and making up stuff on the fly to make Destroy look worse. I don't know, let's say that the Destroy ending also makes all microwave machines explode causing pocket supernovas in every appartment in the galaxy which has one. Or maybe cellphones will blow up like hand grenades in everyone's pockets. Whatever makes you feel better, really.

[BluSoldier]

Hasn't the trilogy proven to us that NO ONE can control the reapers? Shepard is only human....

[PsyrenY]

BluSoldier wrote...

Hasn't the trilogy proven to us that NO ONE can control the reapers? Shepard is only human....

The difference is motivation. Everyone else who tried to control them did it for greed/power/supremacy. Shepard is sacrificing him/herself to save EDI and the Geth. Fiction is full of instances where pure intentions allow heroes to withstand corruption, or use powers that are normally beyond mortal reach.

And since you clearly DO control the Reapers, (they leave, you "end the Reaper threat") it is shown to be a valid choice.

[Costin_Razvan]

Zix13 wrote...

CSly wrote...

I picked control. I haven't seen a rational rebuttal to control that didn't rely on speculation and assumption. If we're meant to take everything the starchild says at face value, then control is the obvious choice--war ended, no genocide.

The problem is that you have to make huge assumptions to determine that control is viable. Given what we know about the reapers, lasting control by an organic is impossible. Not enough information, probability of success is low. Also, this involves taking everything the starchild says at face value, which is.... stupid.

That's what the game assumes you should do though. However it's line of the Cycle ending and relays being destroyed does not apply to control because there is no certainty Shepard won't come to the conclusion that resuming the Cycle would the best thing.

Also the Citadel survives, so that is proof that what the Catalyst states about the Relays does not apply to Control. It's a mess anyway.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 28 mai 2012 - 02:09 .