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[Thalador]

Here's my pro-Destroy analysis of the ending.

The most relevant points:

6.) Destroy:

And last but not least: Destroy. This point won't be all about Destroy being the only “good” choice. (Another guy has already done that - not me, I don't even know how to edit vids. Bit long but I think it's worth watching it. His video did influence the creation of my analysis so many thanks to him and kudos and credits are due for some elements that I implemented here.) Just some dot-connecting mixed with making logical (IMO) deductions and a little bit of a theory-crafting.

The dear Catalyst tries to make Destroy look like the worst possible option (you may die, your synthetic friends might die as well, and "chaos" is sure to return), however, on closer analysis it might all turn out to be, excuse me… horse****.

And here's where the Crucible's functions and Control's mechanics play a large role. I've read the theory that assumesthe Crucible targets Reaper code and damages/disables/assumes control of everything containing said code. If we accept all this, then the geth and EDI are truly targets of the Destroy bubble. However, then how come that Shepard (no matter how) does not control EDI and the geth? They do contain said code; they are theoretically affected by Destroy, but not by Control? How's that even possible? Even if we forget the aforementioned hypothesis, and assume theCrucible targets synthetics in both cases, Shepard still doesn't get to control other synthetics aside from the Reapers... oh wait, I made a mistake there: the Reapers are not even synthetic, but "transcended flesh. Billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies." (~1:08). So... in theory, Destroy should kill the Reapers and all other organics instead, while with control I could dominate and control every organic being in the galaxy? A quick rundown to summarize this - I'm afraid I'm getting confusing now, but it's the writing/ending in reality and all the things it contradicts that could cause confusion.

Crucible targeting synthetics/Reaper code: EDI and the geth die in destroy along with the Reapers (Shepard is said to die, yet he can live); only Reapers are affected in control, synthetics are not? How did the Crucible become so choosy?One time it attacks everyone the next time it aims for the Reapers only (Control bubble is searching for the Reapers and upon finding one, it - let's just say - rewrites the primary programming to make the Reaper accept Shepard's commands). Why can't it target Reapers only in destroy as well?

The Crucible's targeting system makes absolutely no sense. First, the above inconsistencies than the fact that instead of synthetics it should focus more on organics, as the Reapers are still closer to being organic than synthetic("The Reapers are more your future than ours. " - Legion).

Best conclusion/explanation that does not hurt the boys' artistic choice? The Catalyst is a LIAR. He's lying all the time to condition us to choose something else other than Destroy. Shepard has no Reaper code but contains synthetic parts (and our dear boy says the Crucible will fry all things synthetic), yet he lives. Synthetics, whatever their definition is, seem to survive, but we clearly see the Reapers die, who are said to be more organic than synthetic. I admit, I could be wrong, but faced with such series of major logical flaws and contradictions from the Catalyst's part it is incredibly probable that he's lying to save himself. Being the all-knowing Reaper mastermind he claims to be, he possibly understands how the Crucible-Citadel combo functions and operates, but blatantly distorts the truth and lies to us.

However, the question arises: what does the Destroy bubble target when it kills neither organics (unless got a very low EMS - but then again; it incinerates EVERYTHING) nor synthetics but ends the Reapers once and for all? Good question... If I had to guess, I'd say it aims for their heart and/or brain. At the end of the Suicide Mission we shoot its cranium (effectively damaging the Human-Reaper's brain) or its heart. The Destroy bubble either works as an electric shock that causes "cardiac arrest" for the Reapers or attacks the uploaded and linked mind gestalt and uhm... causes an "aneurysm" in the Reaper "brain." 
______________________________

9.) Hope:

Unfortunately, we all know that no matter what we do, no new choices will be added and no changes will be done with the ending. Plus, I’ve lost my faith in the IT turning out to be true, so I go along with what I presented back here (even though it still uses a lot of space magic and still has some pretty big plotholes).

Low/Medium/High is EMS.

Low Paragon Control: With Earth in ruins the controlled Reapers help in rebuilding galactic society and remain as peacekeepers and guardians for both organics and synthetics… for as long as Shepard’s last will does not erode to the point where the Reapers break free (grim hinting).
Low Renegade Control: The controlled Reapers conquer the galaxy and “teach and help” organics and synthetics… unless the Catalyst reclaims control (like the little SOB smiles when choosing control).
High Paragon Control: Rebuilding, giving useful technology and tips, and then heading into the void of space, never stopping until they run out of energy (sort of like the ending of X-Men Origins: Wolverine). No chance for Catalyst to reclaim control.
High Renegade Control: The same but Reapers ride into the stars. No chance for Catalyst to reclaim control.
Synthesis: The Reapers win scenario #1. Visions from the future… indoctrinated hybrids bowing before Reapers, getting ascended, then images of the dead and burnt-out galaxy.
Crucible destroyed: The Reapers win scenario #2. Cycle continues.
Low Destroy: Galaxy is truly doomed, Destroy bubble burns Earth, kills organics on the surface as well as all synthetics in the galaxy + the Reapers. Shepard dies.
Medium Destroy: What’s left on Earth is destroyed (buildings), but organics survive. Either EDI or the geth could survive – or none or both. Shepard dies. Reapers die.
High Destroy: The happy ending. Earth is mostly intact, geth and EDI survive. Shepard lives. Reapers are goners.
+ the choices you made during the games (Council, Genophage, Quarian – Geth status, etc.) are explored in the epilogue, leading up to dozens of other “endings.”

Modifié par Thalador, 27 mai 2012 - 09:17 .

[Grimwick]

MisterJB wrote...

Grimwick wrote...
That is most certainly not substantiated by any evidence.

You need only to look at Paul Grayson and the physical benefits Reaper technology had on him to see that it is possible and an worthy goal to purse so long as we don't sacrifice our freedom to achieve it.

Sorry to burst your bubble but implants/indoctrination =/= changing matter on a molecular level.

[Silasqtx]

Best thread in a long time.

Support \\o

[MisterJB]

Grimwick wrote...
You obviously didn't listen to the games very well. You might also want to look up what the term 'genocide' actually means.

I say the same to you.
Regarding the krogan. Yes, the genophage doesn't make reproduction impossible, just unlikely. However, it produced a tremendous cultural change in the krogan that will ensure their extinction.

As for the Reapers, we are told time and again organic races are preserved as Reapers. You may see it as death, the Reapers don't.

[dreamgazer]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

This is true. It does prove, however, that the catalyst slants his language towards the worst-case scenario instead of the best-case. He wouldn't bring it up without the intention of Shepard contemplating his synthetic nature and whether s/he'd die.
What else is he slanting in this fashion?

Or he's a logical machine relaying information and has no reason to sugarcoat the situation.

If that's the case, then he wouldn't have a reason to address an unreliable variable in the first place. It would be an irrelevant piece of data.

"You might die if you chose that one". Is pretty relevant data to me. The Catalyst is a machine of logic, but it is not illogical to relay that information to someone.

Why is it relevant? Because choosing to destroy could/would effectively end your life, thus creating a potential negative, worst-case product of the choice. We've come full-circle.

Modifié par dreamgazer, 27 mai 2012 - 09:15 .

[MisterJB]

Grimwick wrote...
Sorry to burst your bubble but implants/indoctrination =/= changing matter on a molecular level.

Now you are just denying previously extablished facts to suit your vision of the endings.

[Sisterofshane]

MisterJB wrote...

Grimwick wrote...
That is most certainly not substantiated by any evidence.

You need only to look at Paul Grayson and the physical benefits Reaper technology had on him to see that it is possible and an worthy goal to purse so long as we don't sacrifice our freedom to achieve it.

Which is exactly what you are doing with Synthesis.  You are forcing this change upon the galaxy without direct consent, and at a time in which some beings are not going to be capable of coping with the changes made (primitve cultures and what not).

Choosing destroy gives the individual the right to make these decisions for themselves, in appropriate settings.  If you truly believe in transhumanism, then you understand that the philosophy is something that needs to be developed over time (the idea that we no longer need to identify ourselves as our physicality).  It cannot be artifically created.

[Clayless]

dreamgazer wrote...

Why is it relevant? Because choosing to destroy could/would effectively end your life, thus creating a potential negative, worst-case product of the choice. We've come full-circle.

Elaborate.

[frylock23]

MisterJB wrote...

o Ventus wrote...
So just because the solution is simple means it's a bad solution? Please, don't become a scientist. Not everything requires a Rube Goldberg-esque climax.

A piece of fiction that proposes itself as more complex than a childish battle of Good vs Evil does.

No one AT ALL said Destroy is the "only" possible solution, merely the "best" (quoted because of subjectivity). "Best" does not, in any way, imply "only".

"We destroy them or they destroy us" implies it is the only solution.

The turians are a horrible analogy. They never committed interstellar genocide based on knee-jerk logic to a nonexistent problem.

Actually, they did. The krogan will be extinct eventually if we don't cure the genophage not to mention the DoomsDay Bomb on Tuchanka. And, ultimately, the turians are imperialistic, they subjugate "lesser" species and turn them into client races which was the purpose of the FCW. However, we found a different solution to keep our indepedence other than a campaign to destroy all turians.

And the problem is as real to the Catalyst as the Krogan Rebellions were to the turians; we simply don't know as much as it does.

Also, the Reapers don't commit genocide. They preserve all organic races.

I question how "preserved" a race is when they've been melted into a giant smoothy. Nothing we've seen indicates that any individuality is preserved inside a Reaper. If that's my future in your gradn scheme of things, you can keep it.

[MisterJB]

Sisterofshane wrote...
Previous discussions I have had with you before would suggest otherwise.
Don't come in here and accuse any of us of being close-minded.  There are a multitude of different reasons we would choose the ending, the least of which being that we reject the  "close-minded" philosophy of the being who would claim it to be a non-solution to his imaginery problem.

And yet, that is what Destroy is. I will not insult you; which is far more courtesy than some Anti-Synthesis have shown; but I also won't pull any punches regarding this ending.

[o Ventus]

MisterJB wrote...

No one AT ALL said Destroy is the "only" possible solution, merely the "best" (quoted because of subjectivity). "Best" does not, in any way, imply "only".

"We destroy them or they destroy us" implies it is the only solution.

NPC dialogue and Shepard's autodialogue is not an accurate representation on the thought process of a player. You've clearly demonstrated this.

The turians are a horrible analogy. They never committed interstellar genocide based on knee-jerk logic to a nonexistent problem.

Actually, they did. The krogan will be extinct eventually if we don't cure the genophage not to mention the DoomsDay Bomb on Tuchanka. And, ultimately, the turians are imperialistic, they subjugate "lesser" species and turn them into client races which was the purpose of the FCW. However, we found a different solution to keep our indepedence other than a campaign to destroy all turians.

Fail. The genophage was meant to reduce and stabilize the krogan population. Mordin only tells you this 700 or so times during ME2. Also, "Subjugate" is vastly different from "Liquefy", if you didn't know. did you not listen to Victus or Garrus on Tuchanka about the bomb? It was a safeguard, meant to put the krogan down if they acted up again. Even then, the bomb couldn't possibly kill ALL of the krogan off (If you let it detonate in-game, it only decimates a heavily populated area, nothing more). 

Never mind that the FCW was initiated by the turians being stupid and just opening fire on humans trying to reactivate a dormant relay, NOT because of their imperialistic government.

Modifié par o Ventus, 27 mai 2012 - 09:28 .

[Archontor]

MisterJB wrote...

Grimwick wrote...
That is most certainly not substantiated by any evidence.

You need only to look at Paul Grayson and the physical benefits Reaper technology had on him to see that it is possible and an worthy goal to purse so long as we don't sacrifice our freedom to achieve it.

 

Because so often in life I find myself needing to kill people with my brain or gun them down with dual assault riffles. 

Oh wait no I don't.

[Grimwick]

MisterJB wrote...

Grimwick wrote...
You obviously didn't listen to the games very well. You might also want to look up what the term 'genocide' actually means.

I say the same to you.
Regarding the krogan. Yes, the genophage doesn't make reproduction impossible, just unlikely. However, it produced a tremendous cultural change in the krogan that will ensure their extinction.

As for the Reapers, we are told time and again organic races are preserved as Reapers. You may see it as death, the Reapers don't.

Did you listen to Mordin at all? The genophage stabilised the Krogan birthrate. It left it at a suitable level. The only problem was the krogans themselves. The krogan were known for their self-destructive nature anyway, they ended up nuking themselves previously... The genophage didn't change their culture to this effect.

Non-sentience = death as far as an individual is concerned. being preserved as reapers means losing your sentience. That is death by any definition. In fact, it's even biological death. Saying that the reapers aren't killing people is downright wrong.

[o Ventus]

MisterJB wrote...

Grimwick wrote...
Sorry to burst your bubble but implants/indoctrination =/= changing matter on a molecular level.

Now you are just denying previously extablished facts to suit your vision of the endings.

What "previously established facts" were undermined by what Grimwick posted?

The catalyst's affirmation that you're changing matter on a molecular level?

[Grimwick]

MisterJB wrote...

Grimwick wrote...
Sorry to burst your bubble but implants/indoctrination =/= changing matter on a molecular level.

Now you are just denying previously extablished facts to suit your vision of the endings.

I'm not denying anything. Synthesis doesn't 'upgrade' anything. it just replaces DNA with some stupid new 'framework'. Where in that does it say anything about reaper upgrades?

?

[MisterJB]

Archontor wrote...
Because so often in life I find myself needing to kill people with my brain or gun them down with dual assault riffles. 
Oh wait no I don't.

Are you really so unimaginative than you can only picture military purposes for superhuman strenght, reflexes, hand-eye coordination and regeneration?

[Sisterofshane]

MisterJB wrote...

Grimwick wrote...
You obviously didn't listen to the games very well. You might also want to look up what the term 'genocide' actually means.

I say the same to you.
Regarding the krogan. Yes, the genophage doesn't make reproduction impossible, just unlikely. However, it produced a tremendous cultural change in the krogan that will ensure their extinction.

As for the Reapers, we are told time and again organic races are preserved as Reapers. You may see it as death, the Reapers don't.

Actually, what it (the genophage) did is force the Krogan to change their culture or face extinction.

They were uplifted at a time when their culture was not ready to be involved in a galactic civilization. (They were still focusing on killing each other, why would they care about other species in the galactic community?)

The genophage took away the one thing that stabilized their population.  Their quick breeding is the only thing that offset their violent culture.  It stands to reason that they would then need to become less violent in order to keep themselves from going extinct.

You see the beginning of such reform with Wrex and his solution to unite the clans.  Eve further perpetuates this reform by using her influence to support cultural rebirth (further uniting/pacifiying the Krogans).

[Archontor]

MisterJB wrote...

Archontor wrote...
Because so often in life I find myself needing to kill people with my brain or gun them down with dual assault riffles. 
Oh wait no I don't.

Are you really so unimaginative than you can only picture military purposes for superhuman strenght, reflexes, hand-eye coordination and regeneration?

 

I'm so unimaginative as to notice we have machines to do that for us.

[MisterJB]

o Ventus wrote...
What "previously established facts" were undermined by what Grimwick posted?

The catalyst's affirmation that you're changing matter on a molecular level?

That Reaper technology has incredibly benefitial purposes on the body. Regardless of how it is done, if we are incorporating that technology into our bodies, there is no reason to  terminantely deny that those benefits might be open to us.

[NoUserNameHere]

If the Galaxy needs to return to the dark ages, I'm taking our Robot Overlord with us. Where are all the Destroy sig banners? I've seen some Control variants. Let's represent!

[o Ventus]

MisterJB wrote...

Archontor wrote...
Because so often in life I find myself needing to kill people with my brain or gun them down with dual assault riffles. 
Oh wait no I don't.

Are you really so unimaginative than you can only picture military purposes for superhuman strenght, reflexes, hand-eye coordination and regeneration?

Practical, not unimaginative. 

To a layman, all of those are blessings, sure. Who doesn't want to be superhumanly strong (Me, actually. I don't want to accidentally kill the person I love by giving them a hug, or destroy my own skeleton by sitting down, or break my skull by sneezing), have faster reflexes, or regenerate?

What does this mean for the real world? A higher crime rate and death rate. It's been proven throughout history that if you give people power (Doesn't matter what kind of power), they tend to think they're invincible and can do anything.

[TOBY FLENDERSON]

We are those who fought and won, we never gave in and took what the reapers offered for our submission.

[MisterJB]

Archontor wrote...
I'm so unimaginative as to notice we have machines to do that for us.

Such as the geth.

[o Ventus]

MisterJB wrote...

o Ventus wrote...
What "previously established facts" were undermined by what Grimwick posted?

The catalyst's affirmation that you're changing matter on a molecular level?

That Reaper technology has incredibly benefitial purposes on the body. Regardless of how it is done, if we are incorporating that technology into our bodies, there is no reason to  terminantely deny that those benefits might be open to us.

Reaper tech melted off half of TIM's face.

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

@Mister JB

Face it. We chose to destroy for whatever reasons we have, It's what we wanted. It was what we believed in. Just because you chose a different ending, doesn't mean you come here ranting on how we are wrong and you are right. We have opinions. And making it seem like your opinion is the only right one is highly invslid in this thread. Get off our backs about it.

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 27 mai 2012 - 09:29 .