One of the biggest problems for me in Dragon Age II was that the much hyped framed narrative meant absolutely nothing. In fact, its only so much as mentioned twice in the story, during the tutorial and during Varric's quest. This was a major disappointment for me because there was so much a framed narrative could have added to the story: unreliabale narrator, Hawk from varric's point-of-view, etc.
Now I know someone's going to come in here and say "there wasn't enough resources for that". Well, if that was the case, then the framed narrative shouldn't have been in the game in the first place.
About Framed Narrative
Débuté par
JudeDismas
, mai 27 2012 09:16
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#2
Posté 27 mai 2012 - 09:26
wsandista
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I like the tale to be in real time myself. Past narratives typically only wok if they actually catch up to the current time.
#3
Posté 27 mai 2012 - 09:52
Sylvius the Mad
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I think the framed narrative was a tremendous asset for the game. The unreliable narrator, in particular, allowed the player to solve many of the problems created by the voiceover and paraphrase system.
#4
Posté 27 mai 2012 - 10:28
Wulfram
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I'm not sure if the framed narrative was actually a problem. I mean, it didn't amount to much, yes, but what harm did it do?
Trying to do more with it could have ended up being more annoying that anything else.
Trying to do more with it could have ended up being more annoying that anything else.
#5
Posté 27 mai 2012 - 11:07
MichaelStuart
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Most of the time I forget that Dragon age 2 had framed narrative.
It could have been replaced with a "years later" screen and would have worked the same.
It could have been replaced with a "years later" screen and would have worked the same.
Modifié par MichaelStuart, 27 mai 2012 - 11:11 .
#6
Posté 27 mai 2012 - 11:14
Firky
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I thought that bit with Varric was brilliant. Heheh.
I would have liked to see exactly that happen again, but maybe only once more, or you'd get wise to it.
Or maybe see it employed in other ways, too. Like, it would have been cool to do a whole quest that turned out to be a lie, or something.
I would have liked to see exactly that happen again, but maybe only once more, or you'd get wise to it.
Or maybe see it employed in other ways, too. Like, it would have been cool to do a whole quest that turned out to be a lie, or something.
#7
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Posté 27 mai 2012 - 11:28
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As I understand it a framed narrative means 'story in a story'. Correct me if I'm wrong here please, still adjusting to the english language.
If that is the definition DA2 as a whole is a framed narrative. The player plays the game that is told by Varric. The player 'creates/tells' the story with the decisions s/he makes while Varric talks the pieces together. This sounds like a story in a story to me.
What @Firky wrote is actually a story in a story in a story I think. (Just looking at what I wrote there and think it looks weird but correct.)
The concept of DA2 was very nice I think. How it was worked out though was a bit lacking. Crossing t's and dotting i's is what is missing to make the concept work as it could have.
If that is the definition DA2 as a whole is a framed narrative. The player plays the game that is told by Varric. The player 'creates/tells' the story with the decisions s/he makes while Varric talks the pieces together. This sounds like a story in a story to me.
What @Firky wrote is actually a story in a story in a story I think. (Just looking at what I wrote there and think it looks weird but correct.)
The concept of DA2 was very nice I think. How it was worked out though was a bit lacking. Crossing t's and dotting i's is what is missing to make the concept work as it could have.
#8
Posté 27 mai 2012 - 11:56
Firky
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I don't know if I ever really got a sense that the player was creating the story so much as discovering it. (I'm not saying this is good or bad, just an observation.)
#9
Posté 27 mai 2012 - 11:56
LolaLei
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wsandista wrote...
I like the tale to be in real time myself. Past narratives typically only wok if they actually catch up to the current time.
This.
For me personally it takes away that sense of urgency when you know that the story has already happened, although I appreciate what the DA team were attempting, it made for an interesting change and obviously Varric is total bro!
#10
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Posté 28 mai 2012 - 12:07
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Firky wrote...
I don't know if I ever really got a sense that the player was creating the story so much as discovering it. (I'm not saying this is good or bad, just an observation.)
This is what confuses me here. RP imo is about telling a story from your perspective/decisions and from there you create/discover the story. Not saying this is good or bad, this is my observation. That would be framed narrative in case of DA2 in the way the game is set up.
Of course there are different opinions about what RP is, but that belongs into another thread.
There have been several threads simular to this one as long as I have been on the BSN but it never really was clear for me what the framed narrative really is. Know what I think but open to suggestions because I'm not sure if what I think is right.
#11
Posté 28 mai 2012 - 12:19
Firky
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How you play definitely changes Varric's story, like how he explains the ending etc.
I think I always wondered why Varric didn't lie to Cassandra. (There may be a reason that I can't recall from their dialogue, though.) I picture, like, a ruse that Hawke and Varric had worked out in advance. (You'd still be deciding what it was through your actions, maybe.) The other lying sections were quite overtly "wrong" in that sense. Like, the enemies just been carved up etc.
I think I always wondered why Varric didn't lie to Cassandra. (There may be a reason that I can't recall from their dialogue, though.) I picture, like, a ruse that Hawke and Varric had worked out in advance. (You'd still be deciding what it was through your actions, maybe.) The other lying sections were quite overtly "wrong" in that sense. Like, the enemies just been carved up etc.
#12
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Posté 28 mai 2012 - 12:40
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So Firky, if I understand correctly we agree on the fact that DA2 is based on framed narrative.
For the Varric part not lying to Cassandra we will never know for sure I think. Because of the time spans that happened in DA2 there are things that happened that were told by Varric for which we do not have proof. Could be something that Hawke and Varric worked out in advance but how would they know that Varric would get picked up by Cassandra to tell his story about Hawke and companions?
Would like to know what you think 'framed narrative' means in DA2 in terms of a definition of.
For the Varric part not lying to Cassandra we will never know for sure I think. Because of the time spans that happened in DA2 there are things that happened that were told by Varric for which we do not have proof. Could be something that Hawke and Varric worked out in advance but how would they know that Varric would get picked up by Cassandra to tell his story about Hawke and companions?
Would like to know what you think 'framed narrative' means in DA2 in terms of a definition of.
#13
Posté 28 mai 2012 - 01:02
King Cousland
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I didn't really feel like Hawke was my character, but the FN was just one more thing (along with their inactivity and irrelevance) that made the game feel as though it wasn't even their story, despite the constant marketing campaign of DAII being a more personal story (bad idea anyway, IMO).
Modifié par harkness72, 28 mai 2012 - 01:02 .
#14
Posté 28 mai 2012 - 01:25
Firky
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sjpelkessjpeler wrote...
Would like to know what you think 'framed narrative' means in DA2 in terms of a definition of.
I think it meant "story within a story" so, Varric and Cassandra's story, which relies on Hawke's story. From my recollection (which is vaguelly starting to get hazy) Varric and Cassandra's story felt a bit more like bookends than actual story. Tell me about the champion, what did the champion do next etc. I guess I wouldn't expect the outer layer to be particularly detailed, but maybe Varric and Cassandra could have had motivations that were illustrated, or influenced by, or more closely linked to, Hawke's arc, for example.
#15
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Posté 28 mai 2012 - 01:38
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Firky wrote...
sjpelkessjpeler wrote...
Would like to know what you think 'framed narrative' means in DA2 in terms of a definition of.
I think it meant "story within a story" so, Varric and Cassandra's story, which relies on Hawke's story. From my recollection (which is vaguelly starting to get hazy) Varric and Cassandra's story felt a bit more like bookends than actual story. Tell me about the champion, what did the champion do next etc. I guess I wouldn't expect the outer layer to be particularly detailed, but maybe Varric and Cassandra could have had motivations that were illustrated, or influenced by, or more closely linked to, Hawke's arc, for example.
Thanx
.That is how I feel the story went down from Varric's and Cassandra's point of view. Well mostly Varric's who influences Cassandra with his storytelling about her point of view regarding Hawke. She starts of being 'anti' and ends up being 'pro' I think in her point of view. But had Varric always on the friendship path do not know if there are differences if you had him on rivalry.
#16
Posté 28 mai 2012 - 04:28
Firky
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Hey, that would have been cool. If Varric was really angry/grumpy/something else if you were rivalry. Heheh. Or sequences where you had to play as Hawke doing something really silly because Varric was angry with you. (Maybe it's just me.)
#17
Posté 28 mai 2012 - 05:01
HiroVoid
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Double This. *Insert paragraphs explaining how Alphah Protocol did it better*LolaLei wrote...
wsandista wrote...
I like the tale to be in real time myself. Past narratives typically only wok if they actually catch up to the current time.
This.
For me personally it takes away that sense of urgency when you know that the story has already happened, although I appreciate what the DA team were attempting, it made for an interesting change and obviously Varric is total bro!
#18
Posté 28 mai 2012 - 06:23
wsandista
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HiroVoid wrote...
Double This. *Insert paragraphs explaining how Alphah Protocol did it better*LolaLei wrote...
wsandista wrote...
I like the tale to be in real time myself. Past narratives typically only wok if they actually catch up to the current time.
This.
For me personally it takes away that sense of urgency when you know that the story has already happened, although I appreciate what the DA team were attempting, it made for an interesting change and obviously Varric is total bro!
The same could be said about The Witcher 2
#19
Posté 28 mai 2012 - 06:30
Chipaway111
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Firky wrote...
I don't know if I ever really got a sense that the player was creating the story so much as discovering it. (I'm not saying this is good or bad, just an observation.)
Agreed, and the point about it losing urgency was a good one. I didn't really enjoy it myself because it felt like the story had ended already, I much prefer present-time stories they feel more personal that way.
#20
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Posté 28 mai 2012 - 09:04
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Firky wrote...
Hey, that would have been cool. If Varric was really angry/grumpy/something else if you were rivalry. Heheh. Or sequences where you had to play as Hawke doing something really silly because Varric was angry with you. (Maybe it's just me.)
Ha! Now that I think about it that really would be cool. But do not want to rival Varric. He's just to cute
.
#21
Posté 28 mai 2012 - 11:16
AkiKishi
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Framed narrative needs to transition to real time at some point otherwise it's innefective since it just gives away the ending.
#22
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Posté 28 mai 2012 - 11:19
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BobSmith101 wrote...
Framed narrative needs to transition to real time at some point otherwise it's innefective since it just gives away the ending.
Do not know about that one. Doesn't it depend on what is being told in the story at that time?
#23
Posté 28 mai 2012 - 11:27
AkiKishi
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sjpelkessjpeler wrote...
BobSmith101 wrote...
Framed narrative needs to transition to real time at some point otherwise it's innefective since it just gives away the ending.
Do not know about that one. Doesn't it depend on what is being told in the story at that time?
Alpha Protocol, Witcher2, Final Fantasy X. (examples).
Numerous episodes of NCIS. They start near the end but not at the end. Where as DA2 started at the ending so there was no build up to a dramatic moment, which then gets resolved.
Even Shining Force (think it was 2) has that twist at the end where Max shows up. Although it's part of the outro.
Modifié par BobSmith101, 28 mai 2012 - 11:32 .
#24
Posté 28 mai 2012 - 11:41
Wulfram
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I don't think you necessarily need to catch up to the framed narrative. Plenty of stories don't
But the way DA2's was written did create the expectation that you would. That Cassandra would find Hawke and they'd get the chance to try to put the world back together. If not in this game then in sequel/expansion.
But the way DA2's was written did create the expectation that you would. That Cassandra would find Hawke and they'd get the chance to try to put the world back together. If not in this game then in sequel/expansion.
#25
Posté 28 mai 2012 - 11:42
Mysten
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I actually really enjoyed the framed narrative, although I agree that it needed to be used more often / a little better. I really loved all of the foreshadowing on subsequent playthroughs when I knew what events Varric was referring to. I wish there could have been more visual foreshadowing though, like Cassandra taking Varric on a tour of locations that would become important later whilst he told her of the events that would lead up to them ending up how they did.
Modifié par Mysten, 28 mai 2012 - 11:51 .
