84 réponses à ce sujet

[Ageless Face]

HellbirdIV wrote...



That's true, but unlike Ashley she actually had a reason for that - she was hunting down the Shadow Broker who, I remind you, she crossed in order to save Shepard from ending up a Collector hors d'oeuvre and can't afford to let go up for even a minute 'lest she loses all her progress again and the Broker ends up getting more people killed in his perpetual power-plays.

Ashley's reason for not helping you fight the Collectors? "Grr Cerberus grr! Even though you saved my life on Horizon I'm still mad at you because of Cerberus! Grr!"

Well said, Ash. Well said indeed.

Be fair. Ash turned away from Sheaprd from the same reason Shepard turned from cerberus in ME3. Ashley is an Alliance soldier, and she has responsebility. and cerberus are too dangerous to be trusted. So... Ashley had more common sense than most people in the game.

[HellbirdIV]

jreezy wrote...

I don't remember Liara single-handedly fighting any powerful organizations.

She goes against the Shadow Broker and the Collectors to get Shepard's body back.

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Anyway, I wasn't trying to bash Liara (I like her despite not romancing her); just pointing out the inaccuracy in your original statement.

Not inaccurate as she did stay with you in a sense - inaccurate in the literal sense, perhaps. Regardless your opinion is valid, Liara does stay behind instead of joining you on the suicide mission, mainly because BioWare needed her to be alive for Mass Effect 3 (If you lose Tali or Garrus on the Suicide Mission, you'll notice a huge decline in quality for ME3, so it'd be far worse if Liara could die too).

HagarIshay wrote...

Be
fair. Ash turned away from Sheaprd from the same reason Shepard turned
from cerberus in ME3. Ashley is an Alliance soldier, and she has
responsebility. and cerberus are too dangerous to be trusted. So...
Ashley had more common sense than most people in the game.

No, Shepard trusted Cerberus (how much depends on your playthrough) until she saw them executing Alliance soldiers on Mars right in front of her, and had it explained to her why Cerberus had gone off the deep end.

Ashley just jumped to conclusions and refused to listen to Shepard's reasoning and explanation - at least Kaidan is less of a complete tool about it. He's still an idiot in that plot, sure, but he's less whiny about it than Ash.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 28 mai 2012 - 05:26 .

[What a Succulent Ass]

Yo, I know you did not just ask some dummies on the Internet which video game character you should knock virtual boots with.



OFFICIAL SEAL OF DISAPPROVAL.

[What a Succulent Ass]

HellbirdIV wrote...

That's true, but unlike Ashley she actually had a reason for that -

Before I activate CONTINGENCY 5: ABANDON, I have to point out: Military officers can't just leave their posts. Especially not to accompany a rogue--now terrorist--black ops organisation. That's treasonous.

...Which I find to be a more valid reason than revenge.

Modifié par Random Jerkface, 28 mai 2012 - 05:36 .

[Ageless Face]

HellbirdIV wrote...

No, Shepard trusted Cerberus (how much depends on your playthrough) until she saw them executing Alliance soldiers on Mars right in front of her, and had it explained to her why Cerberus had gone off the deep end.

Ashley just jumped to conclusions and refused to listen to Shepard's reasoning and explanation - at least Kaidan is less of a complete tool about it. He's still an idiot in that plot, sure, but he's less whiny about it than Ash.

Well, can't say Shepard is the most sane  person in the galaxy. In ME1, there were tons of reasons why to question Cerberus. Even if Shepard is thinking about the reapers, Not everyone can simply forget who Shepard is working with. Nor should they. If everyone would just walk blindly after Shepard and his/her cause, the galaxy would turn into pro-cerberus in a very short while.  

[Han Shot First]

Just choose whichever one you like best.

Or assuming you like them both equally, choose the one Shepard hasn't romanced on a previous playthrough.

[MidnightRaith]

Random Jerkface wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

That's true, but unlike Ashley she actually had a reason for that -

Before I activate CONTINGENCY 5: ABANDON, I have to point out: Military officers can't just leave their posts. Especially not to accompany a rogue--now terrorist--black ops organisation. That's treasonous.

...Which I find to be a more valid reason than revenge.

However, if Ashley truly believe that the Reapers were coming, thus making treason irrelevant, then I ask what does anyone use this excuse for either Kaidan or Ashley? It is the most often used excuse for either of them and just doesn't stand up in my opinion. Both could have left and joined Shepard if they truly wanted to and by the time ME3 rolled around, no one would have given them much crap about it once the Reapers started to fly back into orbit.

Just take a look at Shepard. He/she goes rogue to work with the mentioned terrorist organization and kills approximately 300K sentients. Sure, the Alliance tries to courtmartial Shepard, but when the **** hit the fan, you didn't see anyone really giving much thought to that. If Ashley or Kaidan went with Shepard and if they decided to return with him/her, then I don't see the Alliance really holding them from duty. They would need anyone capable of fighting that they could get their hands on and likely seen as doing the greater good by abandoning their post.

If Ashley and Kaidan really, truly believed that Shepard was saving them from certain destruction, they would have come along. Everyone else did, save Wrex and he couldn't leave because his fight for his people would literally collapse without him. Nothing is truly dependant on Ashley or Kaidan's involvement.
 

[What a Succulent Ass]

MidnightRaith wrote...

However, if Ashley truly believe that the Reapers were coming, thus making treason irrelevant, then I ask what does anyone use this excuse for either Kaidan or Ashley?

The VS clearly suspects that

a) Shepard is not her/himself

and/or

Shepard is a traitor/is being tricked or controlled.

Both of these are perfectly logical thoughts when some long-dead friend appears from beyond the grave and asks you to get in bed with terrorists. With that in mind, it would avail them nothing to join Cerberus, seeing as all they know about the organisation is that it likes to perform horrific experiments, and that its members must have failed their primary school lab safety class rather spectacularly.

That being said, you can blame bad writing for your former squad mates' inactivity, because none of them, not a single one of them, has a good excuse for spending two years with their thumbs up their arses.

Garrus - SpecTRe training/C-Sec? TOO HARD, ABANDON I'M BATMAN.
Ash - Whatcha thinkin' 'bout? Alliance stuffs?
Kaidan - Oh, I dunno, nuclear explosion stuffs, I guess.
Liara - SHADOWBROKERSHADOWBROKERSHADOWBROKER
Wrex - I must go--
Tali - My people need me.

Wrex says he's trying to ready the krogan for the reaper threat, so he receives a partial pass (but that is hardly enough), but the rest of them do absolutely ****all in the two years Shepard is iced. Granted, there is very little that they as either individuals (especially say, Tali) or a team could do (especially when the Council went mum on the reaper threat), but there is no indication that any of them tried anything at all.

[MidnightRaith]

Random Jerkface wrote...

The VS clearly suspects that

a) Shepard is not her/himself

and/or

Shepard is a traitor/is being tricked or controlled.

Both of these are perfectly logical thoughts when some long-dead friend appears from beyond the grave and asks you to get in bed with terrorists. With that in mind, it would avail them nothing to join Cerberus, seeing as all they know about the organisation is that it likes to perform horrific experiments, and that its members must have failed their primary school lab safety class rather spectacularly.

That being said, you can blame bad writing for your former squad mates' inactivity, because none of them, not a single one of them, has a good excuse for spending two years with their thumbs up their arses.

Garrus - SpecTRe training/C-Sec? TOO HARD, ABANDON I'M BATMAN.
Ash - Whatcha thinkin' 'bout? Alliance stuffs?
Kaidan - Oh, I dunno, nuclear explosion stuffs, I guess.
Liara - SHADOWBROKERSHADOWBROKERSHADOWBROKER
Wrex - I must go--
Tali - My people need me.

Wrex says he's trying to ready the krogan for the reaper threat, so he receives a partial pass (but that is hardly enough), but the rest of them do absolutely ****all in the two years Shepard is iced. Granted, there is very little that they as either individuals (especially say, Tali) or a team could do (especially when the Council went mum on the reaper threat), but there is no indication that any of them tried anything at all.

I just don't like the writing in general when it comes to the VS. Shepard a traitor? Oh, well, I guess you guys just completely ignored my Paragon playthough our faffed about while I supported the Alliance in all things. Yes, Shepard is working for Cerberus as of then, but all of the other squadmates were able to recognize that Shepard didn't do this lightly nor enjoyed it. The VS is the only one that trivializes whatever personality Shepard had in whatever playthrough you did just to have that token squadmate that was angry with him. It just came off as forced.

If they had focused on the VS learning that Shepard had been literally brought from the dead and them thinking we were controlled, then yeah, it'd be more believable. Especially given how Miranda literally wanted to do that with Shepard to begin with. However, the traitor thing just... eh, can't say I like it.

As for the rest of the squadmates, I don't like that BW largely has us speculating what they were doing to help Shepard. I agree with you on Wrex, but I think Tali and Liara could have had a goal in mind as far as the Reapers go. The Quarians were onto something with the Dark Energy they sent Tali off to collect, but the writers pretty much abandoned that angle and we're left with Tali just screwing around. The Shadow Broker had been working with the Collectors, who could have had some information on the Reapers or he himself could have had clues regarding them. However, they don't even give us token dialogue that states Liara is aware of that. It would be obvious for her to notice that implication, but it just isn't brought up. Then again, the Illium scene is very sub-par when you view it on its own and we're left with bad writing. Again.

Everyone else I agree with you. They just screw around and generally come off as giving up on the larger threat. Almost like: "Oh, well. I guess we're ****ed when the time comes. Might as well do whatever the hell we want in the meantime." However, at least they dropped whatever asinine quest they were on in most cases and joined you.

[HellbirdIV]

jreezy wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

jreezy wrote...

I don't remember Liara single-handedly fighting any powerful organizations.

She goes against the Shadow Broker and the Collectors to get Shepard's body back.

Single-handely? No.

Actually yes. Maybe you should read the comics and pay attention to her storyline in ME2 and LotSB. If you don't help her in LotSB, she still somehow succeeds at all that stuff pretty much solo (hiring some mercs to do the shooting parts) in spite of the deck being stacked against her.

Modifié par HellbirdIV, 28 mai 2012 - 06:46 .

[Asch Lavigne]

HellbirdIV wrote...

jreezy wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

jreezy wrote...

I don't remember Liara single-handedly fighting any powerful organizations.

She goes against the Shadow Broker and the Collectors to get Shepard's body back.

Single-handely? No.

Actually yes. Maybe you should read the comics and pay attention to her storyline in ME2 and LotSB.

But didn't she have Feron helping to some extent? Or did he just provide Liara with information?

Modifié par Asch Lavigne, 28 mai 2012 - 06:47 .

[lillitheris]

Han Shot First wrote...

Just choose whichever one you like best.

^

…What other criteria are there?

[HellbirdIV]

Asch Lavigne wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

jreezy wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

jreezy wrote...

I don't remember Liara single-handedly fighting any powerful organizations.

She goes against the Shadow Broker and the Collectors to get Shepard's body back.

Single-handely? No.

Actually yes. Maybe you should read the comics and pay attention to her storyline in ME2 and LotSB.

But didn't she have Feron helping to some extent? Or did he just provide Liara with information?

Feron is... Well, kind of an incompetent prat. I'm not counting him as "assistance" because he screwed up more stuff than he fixed

[Asch Lavigne]

HellbirdIV wrote...

Asch Lavigne wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

jreezy wrote...

HellbirdIV wrote...

jreezy wrote...

I don't remember Liara single-handedly fighting any powerful organizations.

She goes against the Shadow Broker and the Collectors to get Shepard's body back.

Single-handely? No.

Actually yes. Maybe you should read the comics and pay attention to her storyline in ME2 and LotSB.

But didn't she have Feron helping to some extent? Or did he just provide Liara with information?

Feron is... Well, kind of an incompetent prat. I'm not counting him as "assistance" because he screwed up more stuff than he fixed

Well on your side of things if you didn't do the Shadow Broker DLC, doesn't Liara say she hires mercs but killed the Broker herself? (I know this because I did a non-import ME3 playthrough to unlock Ashley's bonus powers since she was dead in my canon.)

[Nanuzsh]

What do you mean, no. She was all alone in Redemption. Feron was useless and got her killed twice.


Regardless Liara was there for Shepard when no one else was. No one bothered to confirm if Shepard was dead or alive. No one even tried to retrieve his tags (though Liara finds your tag if you romanced her, otherwise Hackett gives her your tags.)

She and Garrus are the two MOST loyal squadmates in the game. If Garrus is Shepards right hand man Liara is Shepard left hand woman.
Both as friends or lovers they are contented to be by Shepards side.



Followed by Tali, Wrex, Miranda and Grunt.

Followed by the rest.

[Asch Lavigne]

Nanuzsh wrote...

What do you mean, no. She was all alone in Redemption. Feron was useless and got her killed twice.


Regardless Liara was there for Shepard when no one else was. No one bothered to confirm if Shepard was dead or alive. No one even tried to retrieve his tags (though Liara finds your tag if you romanced her, otherwise Hackett gives her your tags.)

She and Garrus are the two MOST loyal squadmates in the game. If Garrus is Shepards right hand man Liara is Shepard left hand woman.
Both as friends or lovers they are contented to be by Shepards side.



Followed by Tali, Wrex, Miranda and Grunt.

Followed by the rest.

Taking this off topic but how is Miranda one of Shep's most loyal friends? She wanted to control Shep and after bringing him back to life what did she do for him? It was all about what Shep did for her. And in ME3 she didn't pitch in and help with Cerberus, TIM, Kai Leng, etc.... it was all about her finding Oriana and asking Shep for help.

[Nanuzsh]

Sorry Feron NEARLY got Liara killed twice. Can't edit from cell.

[What a Succulent Ass]

MidnightRaith wrote...

If they had focused on the VS learning that Shepard had been literally brought from the dead and them thinking we were controlled, then yeah, it'd be more believable. Especially given how Miranda literally wanted to do that with Shepard to begin with. However, the traitor thing just... eh, can't say I like it.

But they did. Now, they most certainly flipped the f*ck out on Horizon (though, let's face it: Horizon--and ME2's plot in general--was bad from end to end), but considering that they are shaken up and the most likely scenario is that Shepard faked her/his death, their reaction is understandable, if melodramatic and rash. In ME3, conversely, it becomes clear that they are primarily concerned that Shepard is under Cerberus' control. I haven't bothered to do a run with Kaidan (bless his irradiated remains), but even with an unimported Shep, Ash says (after the encounter with the huskified soldier), "Can you see why I'm worried about you?" That, to me, denotes, connotes, and generally notes concern, so on my life, I don't understand the Mars butthurt. It leads me to suspect that some players can't take having their avatars questioned in any fashion.

But yeah, the VS's writing (so far as character niche goes) is quite a bit iffy. The others don't fare much better though. I wouldn't credit Tali for her research into dark energy, because, for one thing, the Admirals ordered it--it was not her initiative. For another, they had no idea it (would have been) correlated with reapers. Citing Liara's vendetta against the Shadow Broker is also overly generous: he did work with the Collectors, but both Liara and the narrative make it quite clear that she is motivated purely by revenge. Wrex's intentions are noble, but his actions are inadequate, and Garrus...sat on his arse, I suppose.

All of the characters could have done with more exposition and development in that regard.

Edit: As an addendum, I find trying to claim X or Y character as "the most loyal" to be subjective at best, and disingenuous at worst. Tali and Garrus are often cited as walking virtues of friendship, but (ignoring that they were added in ME2 because of fan demand and how poorly they were developed in ME1) I found their joining Shepard without any doubt or thought to consequence diminished their characters and smacked of stupidity.

Modifié par Random Jerkface, 28 mai 2012 - 07:41 .

[What a Succulent Ass]

Nanuzsh wrote...

Sorry Feron NEARLY got Liara killed twice. Can't edit from cell.

Convert the post to BBCode.

[tanisha__unknown]

Choose whoever you like better!