284 réponses à ce sujet

[Obeded the 2nd]

Random Jerkface wrote...

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

He has actually saved organic live though.

Not in any way, shape, form, or fashion. The reapers minds and wills have not been preserved, as evidenced by the fact that they are, either through manipulation, force, or brainwashing, being controlled. Their organic bodies have certainly not been preserved. Their histories, technologies, languages, and cultures have not been preserved, and indeed, all traces of their civilisations have been purposefully obliterated. The species that cannot be reaperised are outright destroyed, and the individuals that are left mutated and mindless by the indoctrination and huskification process are left to starve to death when the reapers retreat to dark space.

This is preservation?

The catalyst is making sure all life does not go extinct.
Agreed in the most horrific way possible.

[Navasha]

And people wonder why the indoctrination theory is so prevalent. Clearly, indoctrination works even on people who simply played the game.

Tell me OP... Why did you even try to stop the reapers then, if you believe what they are doing is for the best?

[Vox Draco]

Darksaberexile wrote...
What makes him right?

An indoctrinated mind will see the catalyst's logic in all its glory...

[justafan]

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

justafan wrote...

The catalyst makes a prediction. We know he can be wrong, as his supposed final solution to the chaos problem has already failed. Hence, we either take our chances in the future with synthetics, who through the Geth have proven they can be allies and peace is possible, or rely on the reapers for a solution, and from experience we know they are bad news bears.

I say we take our chances.

Also I want to say that the prothean VI on thessia says that patterns repeat, this pattern will repeat.

While true, I think this cycle has proven time and time again to be the exception.  No other cycle has fielded the crucible, and no other cycle that we know of has reconciled creator and created.

Again, it is all about taking a big chance, but given the alternatives and all the data showing we can break the cycle, I think it is a risk worth taking for a galaxy free of the reaper menace.  Now not everyone will see it this way, but that is why there are two other options.

Modifié par justafan, 28 mai 2012 - 07:02 .

[Shaani]

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

Shaani wrote...

Destroy means that organic and synthetic life are free to find out for themselves rather he's right or not, and free to find their own solution, instead of having a brutal solution forced upon them by an outside power.

It is the best long term choice for both parties, because it allows them self-determination and the chance to decide the future for themselves.

(see other responses)

Oh, there's no gurantee that there won't be a war.

If there is a war, it will not be the choice of a secret dictator controlling all events.  It will be the choice of those living, made freely without coercision.

I would prefer a unvierse where mankind is honestly doomed by their own mistakes, to one where they are wiped out by inscrutable forces based on hypotheticals.

[LelianaHawke]

MisterJB wrote...
It's the other way around. Peace was only possible because the Reapers are here.
Without a common enemy to unite us, we will be back to killing each other before the week is through.

Not rally. EDI rebelled against her Cerberus 'kill people' programming before the Reapers arrived, and the only reason the Geth were fighting the Qaurians is because the Qaurians attacked them.

So the Catalyst logic of 'will always rebel' is already wrong, since neither the Geth or EDI started conflicts.

[Obeded the 2nd]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

justafan wrote...

The catalyst makes a prediction. We know he can be wrong, as his supposed final solution to the chaos problem has already failed. Hence, we either take our chances in the future with synthetics, who through the Geth have proven they can be allies and peace is possible, or rely on the reapers for a solution, and from experience we know they are bad news bears.

I say we take our chances.

Also I want to say that the prothean VI on thessia says that patterns repeat, this pattern will repeat.

Vendetta was making a direct reference to the Catalyst himself - the patterns repeat because he makes them.  That's the point of the mass Relays, the citadel, the Reapers - he has created a "cycle".

Why would he repeat something in which he is trying to prevent?

That's not the point Vendetta was making. What he was trying to prove was that there was a higher power then the Reapers who seemed to be "guiding" the whole process.

He makes no mention of technological singularity.

However, it is interesting to note that the concept of "created v creator" is in fact forced by him, especially when he does crap like influence the Zha'til and the Geth to attack organic races.

Vendetta clearly said patterns repeat.
This synthetic one would not be controlled by the catalyst.
The other point you mentioned is also something he is trying to get across.

[MisterJB]

Random Jerkface wrote...

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

He has actually saved organic live though.

Not in any way, shape, form, or fashion. The reapers minds and wills have not been preserved, as evidenced by the fact that they are, either through manipulation, force, or brainwashing, being controlled. Their organic bodies have certainly not been preserved. Their histories, technologies, languages, and cultures have not been preserved, and indeed, all traces of their civilisations have been purposefully obliterated. The species that cannot be reaperised are outright destroyed, and the individuals that are left mutated and mindless by the indoctrination and huskification process are left to starve to death when the reapers retreat to dark space.

This is preservation?

All of that survives in their memory and it does open room for new organic species.
It's certainly not ideal but, if the Catalyst is right, it is better than the omnicide of organic life.

[MisterJB]

LelianaHawke wrote...
Not rally. EDI rebelled against her Cerberus 'kill people' programming before the Reapers arrived, and the only reason the Geth were fighting the Qaurians is because the Qaurians attacked them.

So the Catalyst logic of 'will always rebel' is already wrong, since neither the Geth or EDI started conflicts.

It didn't specify what would lead to the rebellions and it doesn't matter, at least in its eyes.
Perhaps it is organic agression but the important part is that synthetics have proven they can and will commit genocide to preserve themselves.

[Shaani]

MisterJB wrote...

It's certainly not ideal but, if the Catalyst is right, it is better than the omnicide of organic life.

If it's truly impossible to find another way to prevent a synthetic/organic war, then that would suggest that it is the will of a higher power that all organic life die and be replaced by synthetic life.

The Catalyst is merely standing in the way of the natural order of things, and doing so while causing immersurable suffering.

[Obeded the 2nd]

Shaani wrote...

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

Shaani wrote...

Destroy means that organic and synthetic life are free to find out for themselves rather he's right or not, and free to find their own solution, instead of having a brutal solution forced upon them by an outside power.

It is the best long term choice for both parties, because it allows them self-determination and the chance to decide the future for themselves.

(see other responses)

Oh, there's no gurantee that there won't be a war.

If there is a war, it will not be the choice of a secret dictator controlling all events.  It will be the choice of those living, made freely without coercision.

I would prefer a unvierse where mankind is honestly doomed by their own mistakes, to one where they are wiped out by inscrutable forces based on hypotheticals.

So say there was a new marshian race.
They were in very early stages of advanced life.
You have a choice: All humans die to prtect the new species.
                                   Both species die.

You would prefer both races to die?

[LelianaHawke]

It's not really a better solution than potential wiping out of organics, because it's assuming something will happen in the future. On that logic, it's better to throw people in jail judged to be a risk before they commit a crime. The patterns are already established that people will move from petty crime to major crime, just one problem with this... it's a complete injustice.

Modifié par LelianaHawke, 28 mai 2012 - 07:06 .

[Baa Baa]

LelianaHawke wrote...

It's not really a better solution than potential wiping out of organics, because it's assuming something will happen in the future. On that logic, it's better to throw people in jail judged to be a risk before they commit a crime. The patterns are already established that people will move from petty crime to major crime, just one problem with this... it's a complete injustice.

This

[ArchDuck]

MisterJB wrote...

All of that survives in their memory and it does open room for new organic species.
It's certainly not ideal but, if the Catalyst is right, it is better than the omnicide of organic life.

That is entirely a matter of opinion.

Also, even if synthetics eventually, somehow for some mysterious reason, wiped out all organics they would also preserve the memory of them.

It appears that what the Reapers' fear are themselves.

Modifié par ArchDuck, 28 mai 2012 - 07:08 .

[Darksaberexile]

MisterJB wrote...

It didn't specify what would lead to the rebellions and it doesn't matter, at least in its eyes.
Perhaps it is organic agression but the important part is that synthetics have proven they can and will commit genocide to preserve themselves.

Organics will commit attrocities to preserve themselves as well. The Genophage, uplifting a race so that they can fight and die for yours (Salarian uplift of the Krogan, Salarians considering uplifting the Yahg).

[slyborg]

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

justafan wrote...

The catalyst makes a prediction. We know he can be wrong, as his supposed final solution to the chaos problem has already failed. Hence, we either take our chances in the future with synthetics, who through the Geth have proven they can be allies and peace is possible, or rely on the reapers for a solution, and from experience we know they are bad news bears.

I say we take our chances.

Also I want to say that the prothean VI on thessia says that patterns repeat, this pattern will repeat.

The patterns repeat because that is how the reapers have tailored the galaxy with the Citadel and mass relays. They guide civilizations to evolve how they want, so they can keep repeating the pattern over and over again.

[Obeded the 2nd]

LelianaHawke wrote...

It's not really a better solution than potential wiping out of organics, because it's assuming something will happen in the future. On that logic, it's better to throw people in jail judged to be a risk before they commit a crime. The patterns are already established that people will move from petty crime to major crime, just one problem with this... it's a complete injustice.

We don't really know how the catalyst was created but we can assume that he knows this will happen so must take the neccacary steps to prevent it.

[What a Succulent Ass]

MisterJB wrote...

Without a common enemy to unite us, we will be back to killing each other before the week is through.

...Which is immaterial, since that has absolutely nothing to do with the metaphysical, psuedo-philosophical questions inherently poised by synthetic life, or the moral quandaries regarding the roles of creator and created, or really, synthetic life at all. The Catalyst (despite being an AI itself), specifically seeks to "protect" organics from the threat of an overwhelming synthetic force. It does not attempt to solve the psychosocial roots of violence and war. It's goal is to prevent synthetic-organic war. Organic-organic, cybernetic-organic, and synthetic-synthetic conflicts are evidently a-OK.

People have been murdering each other since before the first cog could be even dreamt into existence. The Catalyst is in no way trying to solve the problem of violence.

...And even if he were, the way he is going about it is completely idiotic and immoral.

[o Ventus]

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

Shaani wrote...

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

Shaani wrote...

Destroy means that organic and synthetic life are free to find out for themselves rather he's right or not, and free to find their own solution, instead of having a brutal solution forced upon them by an outside power.

It is the best long term choice for both parties, because it allows them self-determination and the chance to decide the future for themselves.

(see other responses)

Oh, there's no gurantee that there won't be a war.

If there is a war, it will not be the choice of a secret dictator controlling all events.  It will be the choice of those living, made freely without coercision.

I would prefer a unvierse where mankind is honestly doomed by their own mistakes, to one where they are wiped out by inscrutable forces based on hypotheticals.

So say there was a new marshian race.
They were in very early stages of advanced life.
You have a choice: All humans die to prtect the new species.
                                   Both species die.

You would prefer both races to die?

I have to love how your post has absolutely nothing to do with what you quoted.

[Obeded the 2nd]

slyborg wrote...

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

justafan wrote...

The catalyst makes a prediction. We know he can be wrong, as his supposed final solution to the chaos problem has already failed. Hence, we either take our chances in the future with synthetics, who through the Geth have proven they can be allies and peace is possible, or rely on the reapers for a solution, and from experience we know they are bad news bears.

I say we take our chances.

Also I want to say that the prothean VI on thessia says that patterns repeat, this pattern will repeat.

The patterns repeat because that is how the reapers have tailored the galaxy with the Citadel and mass relays. They guide civilizations to evolve how they want, so they can keep repeating the pattern over and over again.

I think this just speeds up the natural order of things, thus why he may be called the catalyst.

[MisterJB]

Shaani wrote...
If it's truly impossible to find another way to prevent a synthetic/organic war, then that would suggest that it is the will of a higher power that all organic life die and be replaced by synthetic life.

No more than it is the will of an higher power that mankind dominates all fauna and flora on Earth.
We do it because we can.

[ArchDuck]

ArchDuck wrote...

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

ArchDuck wrote...

So just to point out the absurdity of the argument...

Your entire argument is that the amoral, delusional, murderer of trillions, master mind behind your greatest foe (and greatest threat to life in the galaxy) is actually trying to save us all?

Aahhhh.... OK. Sure, whats trillions and trillions of real* lives compared to an unprovable theoretical assertion of something that may or may not happen in the far distant future.

*Real in-game, not "real" real

It will happen.

Because you have faith*?

*Faith: belief that is not based on proof

Still want an answer to this.

[Sisterofshane]

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

Vendetta clearly said patterns repeat.
This synthetic one would not be controlled by the catalyst.
The other point you mentioned is also something he is trying to get across.

He says the patterns he observed repeat.  He hasn't observed any pattern of technological singularity - it is, in fact, impossible to even know if there is a pattern because of the Catalyst's interference.  If there is a pattern of it present, it is just as easily explained by the Catalysts' interference, for example, with the Geth.  The only time we have seen the Geth killing organics is with the Reapers (and thus the catalysts) direct influence.

[Obeded the 2nd]

o Ventus wrote...

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

Shaani wrote...

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

Shaani wrote...

Destroy means that organic and synthetic life are free to find out for themselves rather he's right or not, and free to find their own solution, instead of having a brutal solution forced upon them by an outside power.

It is the best long term choice for both parties, because it allows them self-determination and the chance to decide the future for themselves.

(see other responses)

Oh, there's no gurantee that there won't be a war.

If there is a war, it will not be the choice of a secret dictator controlling all events.  It will be the choice of those living, made freely without coercision.

I would prefer a unvierse where mankind is honestly doomed by their own mistakes, to one where they are wiped out by inscrutable forces based on hypotheticals.

So say there was a new marshian race.
They were in very early stages of advanced life.
You have a choice: All humans die to prtect the new species.
                                   Both species die.

You would prefer both races to die?

I have to love how your post has absolutely nothing to do with what you quoted.

Yes it does.
S/he said they would prefer thier own destruction to come at thier own hands rather than a god-like charcter.
However doing this would kill all other life forms.