284 réponses à ce sujet

[Obeded the 2nd]

Darksaberexile wrote...

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

LelianaHawke wrote...

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

We don't really know how the catalyst was created but we can assume that he knows this will happen so must take the neccacary steps to prevent it.

Err... why? Why must we assume?

Because we don't know where he came from, it is not explained int he game.

This is not a valid reason to assume anything.
We used to not know what caused events such as volcanic eruptions. People concluded there were gods angry with humans. By your logic, we should have accepted this, correct?

If not, then why must we accept what the Catalyst says simply because we don't know his origin? What if the Catalyst is a Reaper construct designed only to manipulate Shepard? Should he still be trusted implicitly?

No because no-one actually met a god.

[Vox Draco]

T-Raks wrote...

Why do we have to have a thread about this every five seconds? I mean, it's not like we haven't discussed this in 1000 threads before. .

For the laughs? It always amuses me to read posts that support the reaper's point of view. *grabs popcorn* I wonder what they come up with next? ME4 starring Harbinger the Reaper, true hero of the galaxy?

[Ulous]

The Green and Blue endings are the only ones that show the reapers leaving, the Red ending leaves the dead reaper corpses lying all over the place, maybe this is exactly what they really wanted? Like the mass relays the reaper corpses could lead organics on possibly another planned path by the reapers.

Modifié par Ulous, 28 mai 2012 - 07:22 .

[What a Succulent Ass]

T-Raks wrote...

And BTW: So far no group of machines was able to wipe out all organic life, so the track record still speaks for organic life to find a way to survive every threat.

Even assuming that synthetic-organic conflict is inevitable, considering that total organic annihilation would require synthetics to constantly tour the galaxy, obliterating every microbe on every world, this idea is even more inane than at first look.

[Sisterofshane]

Wulfram wrote...

In the long run, we're all dead.

Even if we all die, destroy gives OTHER forms of life the best chance to develop free from influence (Synthesis) and the fear of being struck down at some pre-determined "end" point.

[LelianaHawke]

I said there was no way to know how he was created, his goals are clear.

OK. I know nothing about you, but I now have a goal to tell you that you're wrong. Believe me.

Point is, you won't accept that, just like I can't accept the Catalyst's logic purely on the basis of its goals.

Modifié par LelianaHawke, 28 mai 2012 - 07:25 .

[Obeded the 2nd]

o Ventus wrote...

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

Vendetta clearly said patterns repeat.
This synthetic one would not be controlled by the catalyst.
The other point you mentioned is also something he is trying to get across.

He says the patterns he observed repeat.  He hasn't observed any pattern of technological singularity - it is, in fact, impossible to even know if there is a pattern because of the Catalyst's interference.  If there is a pattern of it present, it is just as easily explained by the Catalysts' interference, for example, with the Geth.  The only time we have seen the Geth killing organics is with the Reapers (and thus the catalysts) direct influence.

He doesn't need to say that this one repeats, he just needs to say that pattens repeat, this means that all things do repeat over-time.
Talking about this would just ruin the ending.

Except it isn't logically possible for singularity to be a pattern, let alone a single occurrence. The Reapers don't destroy synthetics. If an omniscient AI synthetic HAS destroyed all organic life in the past, it wouldn't just stop all of a sudden.

And the horrible endings ruined themselves (And the rest of the series).

It might have and those were reapers and now there used for the catalyst.
Also it is possible for that to be a pattern

If it hasn't happened YET, how can it possibly be a pattern? Do you not know what a pattern is?

No i'm saying that the reapers may have been the synthetics created that destoryed all organic life but then there were controlled by the catalyst and organic life became able to grow again.

[Reaper_PL]

If you follow the games flawed logic you will see that the solutions that the Catalist gets from the Crucible are no solutions at all, since they don't provide a final ending to the ongoing conflict.
Remember, according to the Catalist our goal is to stop the Organic life from creating Synthetic life that will destroy its Organic creators.
So what choices do we have?
Destroy. You destroy all the Syntetic life - Reapers, Geth, EDI etc... However this dosen't stop the current Organics from creating new Synthetic lifeforms. And this new Synthetic Life can eaisly deststroy Organic life. Therefore this solution only delays what it was trying to prevent.
Control. This onne, on the first look, dosen't look that bad. Since you control the Reapers, you can order the Reapers to leave Earth, Galaxy and force them to stay in Dark Space. But the Organics can create new Synthetic lifeforms and those Synthetics can kill Organics. So in order to stop that from happening, Sheppard will have to send the Reapers to stop the Organics from creating new Synthetic lifeforms. This will start new cycle. And the cycle will have to repeat and we will end up in the square one, making everything else pointless.
Synthesis. You merge synthetic and organic life in one crazy Hybrid lifeform or something. But this new hybrid-ish life can again create Synthetic life. But! In some crazy way this is the only working solution! Yes this Hybrid life can create new Synthetics, that would want to kill it's creators. However... Now the Organics cannot be killed since they don't exist anymore! The previous problem gets resolved. The Synthetics can destroy the Hybrids, but this isn't our problem anymore. The game finds a solution by removing one part of the problem (Organics) and creating new conflict - Hybrids vs. Synthetics, which is virtually the same in the final outcome.

No final solution at all.

[o Ventus]

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

No because no-one actually met a god.

An immortal, nigh-omniscient being that plays with organic lives as if they were toys, and acts on an "incomprehensible" agenda. The catalyst fits all of these criteria.

Sounds like a god to me.

[ArchDuck]

ArchDuck wrote...

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

ArchDuck wrote...

So just to point out the absurdity of the argument...

Your entire argument is that the amoral, delusional, murderer of trillions, master mind behind your greatest foe (and greatest threat to life in the galaxy) is actually trying to save us all?

Aahhhh.... OK. Sure, whats trillions and trillions of real* lives compared to an unprovable theoretical assertion of something that may or may not happen in the far distant future.

*Real in-game, not "real" real

It will happen.

Because you have faith*?

*Faith: belief that is not based on proof

Still waiting...
Quite ignoring a very valid question. You have painted yourself into a corner. Admit your arguement is built on faith and it becomes unprovable rambling. Admit your arguement isn't built on faith and you then have to provide clear definitive proof that you don't have.

Modifié par ArchDuck, 28 mai 2012 - 07:24 .

[o Ventus]

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

No i'm saying that the reapers may have been the synthetics created that destoryed all organic life but then there were controlled by the catalyst and organic life became able to grow again.

Impossible still, since the Reapers are half organic. The catalyst wouldn't specifically call the Reapers "his solution" if they were the root of the problem.

Synthetic =/= half organic.

[Baa Baa]

Shaani wrote...

Obeded the 2nd wrote...
Yes it does.
S/he said they would prefer thier own destruction to come at thier own hands rather than a god-like charcter.
However doing this would kill all other life forms.

No, I said I'd rather die of my own honest mistake, then be murdered (or worse, turned into a Reaper to suffer for eons) because of what some alien thinks might happen.

And if a robot war must happen, then let it happen.  That's our destiny, and fighting it is not worth billions upon billions of years of murdering innocents.

[MisterJB]

Zix13 wrote...
Control -> more synthetics, reapers still need to kill everyone
Synthesis -> More synthetics, reapers still need to kill everyone, in fact, current war with the reapers continues
Destroy -> more synthetics, no reapers to kill everyone regardless of the hostility of synthetics

No, no, no.

Control= more synthetics, Shepard is the Catalyst and can attempt new solution
Synthesis= Reapers are free of the Catalyst, we can work with them, more synthetics, however, the upgraded hybrids are now capable of competing with them and the risk of omnicide is nonexistent
Destroy= More synthetics, no Reapers capable of stopping them, organic life is forever extinct.

[tvman099]

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

even the catalyst says this

O WORD, HOW DID I NOT SEE THIS BEFORE SO GLAD I HAVE THIS MASS MURDERING PSYCHOPATH TO DIRECT ME.

He has actually saved organic live though.

Says who? The AI controlling the fleet of machines that have wiped out more organic life than I can fathom?

If the little **** isn't lying to me outright, then it's still basing its actions on the supposed inevitability of something that has never taken place and perhaps never will take place.

You have to be dumb to believe the Catalyst.

[Obeded the 2nd]

o Ventus wrote...

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

No i'm saying that the reapers may have been the synthetics created that destoryed all organic life but then there were controlled by the catalyst and organic life became able to grow again.

Impossible still, since the Reapers are half organic. The catalyst wouldn't specifically call the Reapers "his solution" if they were the root of the problem.

Synthetic =/= half organic.

Might have made them out of organics after that.

[Obeded the 2nd]

tvman099 wrote...

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

even the catalyst says this

O WORD, HOW DID I NOT SEE THIS BEFORE SO GLAD I HAVE THIS MASS MURDERING PSYCHOPATH TO DIRECT ME.

He has actually saved organic live though.

Says who? The AI controlling the fleet of machines that have wiped out more organic life than I can fathom?

If the little **** isn't lying to me outright, then it's still basing its actions on the supposed inevitability of something that has never taken place and perhaps never will take place.

You have to be dumb to believe the Catalyst.

Then i'm dumb :happy:

[Sisterofshane]

o Ventus wrote...

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

No i'm saying that the reapers may have been the synthetics created that destoryed all organic life but then there were controlled by the catalyst and organic life became able to grow again.

Impossible still, since the Reapers are half organic. The catalyst wouldn't specifically call the Reapers "his solution" if they were the root of the problem.

Synthetic =/= half organic.

I think they're closer to "organic constructs" then they are to "half" organics.

Basically, they are constructed using organic components, as opposed to non-organic.  They're definitely closer to machines then they are to organics.

[o Ventus]

MisterJB wrote...

Zix13 wrote...
Control -> more synthetics, reapers still need to kill everyone
Synthesis -> More synthetics, reapers still need to kill everyone, in fact, current war with the reapers continues
Destroy -> more synthetics, no reapers to kill everyone regardless of the hostility of synthetics

No, no, no.

Control= more synthetics, Shepard is the Catalyst and can attempt new solution
Synthesis= Reapers are free of the Catalyst, we can work with them, more synthetics, however, the upgraded hybrids are now capable of competing with them and the risk of omnicide is nonexistent
Destroy= More synthetics, no Reapers capable of stopping them, organic life is forever extinct.

You are aware that just because the hybrids are upgraded, doesn't reduce the chance of omnicide, yes? They can still die. They aren't gods.

Oh wait, I forgot you're employing the same knee-jerk logic to a nonexistent problem.

[LelianaHawke]

Reaper_PL wrote...

If you follow the games flawed logic you will see that the solutions that the Catalist gets from the Crucible are no solutions at all, since they don't provide a final ending to the ongoing conflict.
Remember, according to the Catalist our goal is to stop the Organic life from creating Synthetic life that will destroy its Organic creators.
So what choices do we have?
Destroy. You destroy all the Syntetic life - Reapers, Geth, EDI etc... However this dosen't stop the current Organics from creating new Synthetic lifeforms. And this new Synthetic Life can eaisly deststroy Organic life. Therefore this solution only delays what it was trying to prevent.
Control. This onne, on the first look, dosen't look that bad. Since you control the Reapers, you can order the Reapers to leave Earth, Galaxy and force them to stay in Dark Space. But the Organics can create new Synthetic lifeforms and those Synthetics can kill Organics. So in order to stop that from happening, Sheppard will have to send the Reapers to stop the Organics from creating new Synthetic lifeforms. This will start new cycle. And the cycle will have to repeat and we will end up in the square one, making everything else pointless.
Synthesis. You merge synthetic and organic life in one crazy Hybrid lifeform or something. But this new hybrid-ish life can again create Synthetic life. But! In some crazy way this is the only working solution! Yes this Hybrid life can create new Synthetics, that would want to kill it's creators. However... Now the Organics cannot be killed since they don't exist anymore! The previous problem gets resolved. The Synthetics can destroy the Hybrids, but this isn't our problem anymore. The game finds a solution by removing one part of the problem (Organics) and creating new conflict - Hybrids vs. Synthetics, which is virtually the same in the final outcome.

No final solution at all.

Organics can kill organics too. I don't see how anything can ever be a final solution, other than prematurely deciding the victor.

[Obeded the 2nd]

MisterJB wrote...

Zix13 wrote...
Control -> more synthetics, reapers still need to kill everyone
Synthesis -> More synthetics, reapers still need to kill everyone, in fact, current war with the reapers continues
Destroy -> more synthetics, no reapers to kill everyone regardless of the hostility of synthetics

No, no, no.

Control= more synthetics, Shepard is the Catalyst and can attempt new solution
Synthesis= Reapers are free of the Catalyst, we can work with them, more synthetics, however, the upgraded hybrids are now capable of competing with them and the risk of omnicide is nonexistent
Destroy= More synthetics, no Reapers capable of stopping them, organic life is forever extinct.

Wow, i thought i'd never find someone who actually understood

[o Ventus]

Sisterofshane wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

No i'm saying that the reapers may have been the synthetics created that destoryed all organic life but then there were controlled by the catalyst and organic life became able to grow again.

Impossible still, since the Reapers are half organic. The catalyst wouldn't specifically call the Reapers "his solution" if they were the root of the problem.

Synthetic =/= half organic.

I think they're closer to "organic constructs" then they are to "half" organics.

Basically, they are constructed using organic components, as opposed to non-organic.  They're definitely closer to machines then they are to organics.

Which still leaves my point about the catalyst referring to the Reapers as "his solution".

[What a Succulent Ass]

MisterJB wrote...

organic life is forever extinct.

Can someone please explain how this is possible? Because my mind is continually being blown by this assertion.

[o Ventus]

Random Jerkface wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

organic life is forever extinct.

Can someone please explain how this is possible? Because my mind is continually being blown by this assertion.

Count me in as well.

I just can't comprehend how people are psychic and can predict a future omnicide with no past evidence or suggestion. I wish I had that ability.

[Obeded the 2nd]

ArchDuck wrote...

ArchDuck wrote...

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

ArchDuck wrote...

So just to point out the absurdity of the argument...

Your entire argument is that the amoral, delusional, murderer of trillions, master mind behind your greatest foe (and greatest threat to life in the galaxy) is actually trying to save us all?

Aahhhh.... OK. Sure, whats trillions and trillions of real* lives compared to an unprovable theoretical assertion of something that may or may not happen in the far distant future.

*Real in-game, not "real" real

It will happen.

Because you have faith*?

*Faith: belief that is not based on proof

Still waiting...
Quite ignoring a very valid question. You have painted yourself into a corner. Admit your arguement is built on faith and it becomes unprovable rambling. Admit your arguement isn't built on faith and you then have to provide clear definitive proof that you don't have.

It's not on faith but what is shown in-game.

[LelianaHawke]

MisterJB wrote...

No, no, no.

Control= more synthetics, Shepard is the Catalyst and can attempt new solution
Synthesis= Reapers are free of the Catalyst, we can work with them, more synthetics, however, the upgraded hybrids are now capable of competing with them and the risk of omnicide is nonexistent
Destroy= More synthetics, no Reapers capable of stopping them, organic life is forever extinct.

Ok, how about these possibilities.

Control = more synthetics, Shepard loses control over the Reapers, reapers come back and kill everyone.

Synthesis = Reapers are free of the Catalyst, and decide with their newfound freedom they want to subjugate all races to slavery. They do have prothean DNA in them, after all.

Destroy = Synthetics don't start a war, but organics nuke each other into oblivion.

Every single option has the potential to be a loss. With destroy, the victory is more certain.

Modifié par LelianaHawke, 28 mai 2012 - 07:32 .