284 réponses à ce sujet

[What a Succulent Ass]

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

Might have made them out of organics after that.

You cannot fly in evidence from Baseless Speculandia to support your argument.

[Sisterofshane]

MisterJB wrote...

Zix13 wrote...
Control -> more synthetics, reapers still need to kill everyone
Synthesis -> More synthetics, reapers still need to kill everyone, in fact, current war with the reapers continues
Destroy -> more synthetics, no reapers to kill everyone regardless of the hostility of synthetics

No, no, no.

Control= more synthetics, Shepard is the Catalyst and can attempt new solution
Synthesis= Reapers are free of the Catalyst, we can work with them, more synthetics, however, the upgraded hybrids are now capable of competing with them and the risk of omnicide is nonexistent
Destroy= More synthetics, no Reapers capable of stopping them, organic life is forever extinct.

LOL, and you said you didn't believe in Singularity!  Oh you!

Still, there is no way to prove that singularity leads to the death of all organics.  At that point, there will be no more organics.  So, obviously the extinction end point has never occured.

"That's because of the Catalyst's intervention!" you say?  Well, guess what, if the Catalyst intervened, then there is again no way of knowing beyond the shadow of a reasonable doubt that the extinction end point will occur.

The Catalyst has been harvesting organics for the past billion years over a hypothetical situation.

I could just as easily say that Bears will kill all humans.  My evidence is that, every time they are pitted in combat, the Bear always kills the human, and sometimes without provocation.  Therefore, we should destroy all human settlements that build close to Bear Habitats.  But I will take everyone's picture first, so that I can remember them later on, as I destroy more human settlements.

[ArchDuck]

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

ArchDuck wrote...

ArchDuck wrote...

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

ArchDuck wrote...

So just to point out the absurdity of the argument...

Your entire argument is that the amoral, delusional, murderer of trillions, master mind behind your greatest foe (and greatest threat to life in the galaxy) is actually trying to save us all?

Aahhhh.... OK. Sure, whats trillions and trillions of real* lives compared to an unprovable theoretical assertion of something that may or may not happen in the far distant future.

*Real in-game, not "real" real

It will happen.

Because you have faith*?

*Faith: belief that is not based on proof

Still waiting...
Quite ignoring a very valid question. You have painted yourself into a corner. Admit your arguement is built on faith and it becomes unprovable rambling. Admit your arguement isn't built on faith and you then have to provide clear definitive proof that you don't have.

It's not on faith but what is shown in-game.

Where? Show me the parts/scenes in which this is proven (Not using the catalysts ramblings because his statements have zero believability as I can prove that he is either a liar or delusional).

Modifié par ArchDuck, 28 mai 2012 - 07:35 .

[Obeded the 2nd]

Random Jerkface wrote...

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

Might have made them out of organics after that.

You cannot fly in evidence from Baseless Speculandia to support your argument.

Yeah I was pulling at straws there.

[o Ventus]

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

It's not on faith but what is shown in-game.

What evidence do you have from the game that supports the idea of an omnicide on organics from hostile synthetics? It has NEVER HAPPENED.

The geth? Spared the quarians.
The zha'til? Were destroyed by the protheans.
EDI? Never rebelled.
David Archer? Never rebelled.
Metacon War? The protheans were WINNING.

HOW CAN YOU SAY THE GAME SHOWS AN OMNICIDE IF IT'S NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE?

Modifié par o Ventus, 28 mai 2012 - 07:35 .

[G Kevin]

Organic life can never be forever extinct. As long as the basic laws of nature are followed, organics will always be created from star dust.

Just wanted to put that out there.

[Zix13]

MisterJB wrote...

Zix13 wrote...
Control -> more synthetics, reapers still need to kill everyone
Synthesis -> More synthetics, reapers still need to kill everyone, in fact, current war with the reapers continues
Destroy -> more synthetics, no reapers to kill everyone regardless of the hostility of synthetics

No, no, no.

Control= more synthetics, Shepard is the Catalyst and can attempt new solution

 
a) don't know how complete Shepards control is, obviously not complete otherwise you're ignoring Sovereign and Harbingers trolling
The reason (presumably) that the reapers killed the organics as opposed to any synthetics was that organics would eventually advance past the reapers such that synthetics they created would be beyond the reapers capabilities to destroy. This would still be a problem
c) 50,000 years is a long time. You assume somehow Shep would stick to his views. 

 Synthesis= Reapers are free of the Catalyst, we can work with them, more synthetics, however, the upgraded hybrids are now capable of competing with them and the risk of omnicide is nonexistent

 
Since when does synthesis involve the reapers being free from the catalyst? Organics would not work with the reapers since pretty much everyone is missing friends and family. The war would continue. Even after the smoke cleared, synthetics would be created and rebel exactly the same way( hybrids now capable of competing? What? this hardly means they can't be killed.). And eventually new life would form on planets without the copper traces and green eyes. Synthesis solves nothing. 

 Destroy= More synthetics, no Reapers capable of stopping them, organic life is forever extinct.

 a) Yes because the Geth have tried to kill all organic life without the reapers controlling them... oh wait.
  Javiks cycle: They had problems with synthetics and put them down.
 c) Why are synthetics more likely to do this than a race of organics? 
 d) You're making an assumption that synthetics will inevitably conquer all organics that is based on nothing whatsoever. 

[gert56nom]

Sheperd has talked to reapers in all 3 games, there all about harvesting organics , no open dialoge , no compromises, no reasoning, YOU WILL BE HARVESTED & thats that

its kill or be killed

the star kid ruins all that, but the starkid also contradits itself, so I trust it as far as I could throw the citadel
the only nagging issue with destroy is that star kid says it will kill ALL synthetic live, but it has contradicted itself already so it could be wrong or lying

[Obeded the 2nd]

ArchDuck wrote...

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

ArchDuck wrote...

ArchDuck wrote...

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

ArchDuck wrote...

So just to point out the absurdity of the argument...

Your entire argument is that the amoral, delusional, murderer of trillions, master mind behind your greatest foe (and greatest threat to life in the galaxy) is actually trying to save us all?

Aahhhh.... OK. Sure, whats trillions and trillions of real* lives compared to an unprovable theoretical assertion of something that may or may not happen in the far distant future.

*Real in-game, not "real" real

It will happen.

Because you have faith*?

*Faith: belief that is not based on proof

Still waiting...
Quite ignoring a very valid question. You have painted yourself into a corner. Admit your arguement is built on faith and it becomes unprovable rambling. Admit your arguement isn't built on faith and you then have to provide clear definitive proof that you don't have.

It's not on faith but what is shown in-game.

Where? Show me the parts/scenes in which this is proven (Not using the catalysts ramblings because his statements have zero believablity as I can prove that he is either a liar or delisional).

Well no, you can't just cut the catalyst out.
He is a key part of the story.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

LelianaHawke wrote...

It's not really a better solution than potential wiping out of organics, because it's assuming something will happen in the future. On that logic, it's better to throw people in jail judged to be a risk before they commit a crime. The patterns are already established that people will move from petty crime to major crime, just one problem with this... it's a complete injustice.

This was the plot of "The Minority Report". Someone is having "impure thoughts that could lead to..." so let's throw them in jail for life. It's not justice.

I'm seeing people (not you) arguing against free will. Because the catalyst said that some day our offspring will create synthetics that will rebel and destroy all organic life, this means that we should deny everyone free will? The catalyst cannot accurately predict that far out because it has interfered. It has caused not only by the mass relays, but by reaper artifacts, and other reaper tech scattered around the galaxy, races to develop along the technological paths it desires which always has led to the development of sentient machines that rebel against their creators. And if it doesn't seem to be happening one of its minions will actively interfere and cause it to happen.

What the catalyst is failing to see is that it doesn't necessarily happen.

[Obeded the 2nd]

G Kevin wrote...

Organic life can never be forever extinct. As long as the basic laws of nature are followed, organics will always be created from star dust.

Just wanted to put that out there.

Not if synthetics are on the planet and destory all life forms they come across.
They wouldn't get the chance to devolop.

[Luviagelita]

MisterJB wrote...

Zix13 wrote...
Control -> more synthetics, reapers still need to kill everyone
Synthesis -> More synthetics, reapers still need to kill everyone, in fact, current war with the reapers continues
Destroy -> more synthetics, no reapers to kill everyone regardless of the hostility of synthetics

No, no, no.

Control= more synthetics, Shepard is the Catalyst and can attempt new solution
Synthesis= Reapers are free of the Catalyst, we can work with them, more synthetics, however, the upgraded hybrids are now capable of competing with them and the risk of omnicide is nonexistent
Destroy= More synthetics, no Reapers capable of stopping them, organic life is forever extinct.

Excuse me, we have a proof that synthetics aren't nesessarily hostile to organics. We can only speculate if this problem is so deadly to organic life. So it's a matter of hope for the future (which is natural for a human who makes this choice) and we have no evidence that synthetics actually would pose such a threat.
The only threat we see are the Reapers. So this cycles of raising people for slaughter was correct in your opinion?

...Damn I hope my English isn't so bad for native speakers))

[Obeded the 2nd]

o Ventus wrote...

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

It's not on faith but what is shown in-game.

What evidence do you have from the game that supports the idea of an omnicide on organics from hostile synthetics? It has NEVER HAPPENED.

The geth? Spared the quarians.
The zha'til? Were destroyed by the protheans.
EDI? Never rebelled.
David Archer? Never rebelled.
Metacon War? The protheans were WINNING.

HOW CAN YOU SAY THE GAME SHOWS AN OMNICIDE IF IT'S NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE?

I've answered this like 50 times already, please read the other posts

[blooregard]

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Zix13 wrote...
Control -> more synthetics, reapers still need to kill everyone
Synthesis -> More synthetics, reapers still need to kill everyone, in fact, current war with the reapers continues
Destroy -> more synthetics, no reapers to kill everyone regardless of the hostility of synthetics

No, no, no.

Control= more synthetics, Shepard is the Catalyst and can attempt new solution
Synthesis= Reapers are free of the Catalyst, we can work with them, more synthetics, however, the upgraded hybrids are now capable of competing with them and the risk of omnicide is nonexistent
Destroy= More synthetics, no Reapers capable of stopping them, organic life is forever extinct.

Wow, i thought i'd never find someone who actually understood

Its impossible to wipe out ALL organic life. No matter what Starbinger says organic life will ALWAYS find a way to climb out of the primodial muck (provided you didn't choose synthesis).

Besides even if Starbinger is being truthful why should you trust him? You have the option of giving Mordin mountains of crap for modifying the genophage but you're perfectly fine with the guy who controls fleet of giant space squids that harvest ALL advanced life? No there is no reason you should trust Starbinger. He gives you vague descriptions of what the options do, he tries to justify the countless genocides he's been responsible for by telling you to look at the "big picture" and doesn't even look out the window to see that his big picture is made up of little pictures JUST like the genophage. I'm sorry but Starbinger is just a stupider version of pre Reaper invasion Mordin. He tries to justify the atrocities his work causes by pointing to what might happen. The only difference between the two is Mordin was at least open to peace.

Modifié par blooregard, 28 mai 2012 - 07:38 .

[o Ventus]

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

G Kevin wrote...

Organic life can never be forever extinct. As long as the basic laws of nature are followed, organics will always be created from star dust.

Just wanted to put that out there.

Not if synthetics are on the planet and destory all life forms they come across.
They wouldn't get the chance to devolop.

Which obviously hasn't happened in the past, since the Reapers have come down EVERY SINGLE 50,000 YEARS TO KILL EVERYONE.

[Sisterofshane]

Luviagelita wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Zix13 wrote...
Control -> more synthetics, reapers still need to kill everyone
Synthesis -> More synthetics, reapers still need to kill everyone, in fact, current war with the reapers continues
Destroy -> more synthetics, no reapers to kill everyone regardless of the hostility of synthetics

No, no, no.

Control= more synthetics, Shepard is the Catalyst and can attempt new solution
Synthesis= Reapers are free of the Catalyst, we can work with them, more synthetics, however, the upgraded hybrids are now capable of competing with them and the risk of omnicide is nonexistent
Destroy= More synthetics, no Reapers capable of stopping them, organic life is forever extinct.

Excuse me, we have a proof that synthetics aren't nesessarily hostile to organics. We can only speculate if this problem is so deadly to organic life. So it's a matter of hope for the future (which is natural for a human who makes this choice) and we have no evidence that synthetics actually would pose such a threat.
The only threat we see are the Reapers. So this cycles of raising people for slaughter was correct in your opinion?

...Damn I hope my English isn't so bad for native speakers))

This is quoted for truth.

Your english is fine, by the way.  What is your native language, if I may ask?

Modifié par Sisterofshane, 28 mai 2012 - 07:38 .

[ArchDuck]

Random Jerkface wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

organic life is forever extinct.

Can someone please explain how this is possible? Because my mind is continually being blown by this assertion.

Obviosly the people that think that don't think life would spontaneously start... like it did in the first place on garden worlds... and should do again.
Nor can life be recreated in labs. Like those riding dinosaurs for the Krogan. Oh wait...

[o Ventus]

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

It's not on faith but what is shown in-game.

What evidence do you have from the game that supports the idea of an omnicide on organics from hostile synthetics? It has NEVER HAPPENED.

The geth? Spared the quarians.
The zha'til? Were destroyed by the protheans.
EDI? Never rebelled.
David Archer? Never rebelled.
Metacon War? The protheans were WINNING.

HOW CAN YOU SAY THE GAME SHOWS AN OMNICIDE IF IT'S NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE?

I've answered this like 50 times already, please read the other posts

You have never once answered this, only provided more stupid baseless speculation. I ask for evidence, and you give me "Well this could happen..."

[G Kevin]

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

G Kevin wrote...
Organic life can never be forever extinct. As long as the basic laws of nature are followed, organics will always be created from star dust.

Just wanted to put that out there.

Not if synthetics are on the planet and destory all life forms they come across.
They wouldn't get the chance to devolop.

There will always be the lucky planet that will escape from such things. Synthetics will have to visit many, many worlds to find life to destroy, the time it would take will allow for growth.

[Darksaberexile]

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

Darksaberexile wrote...

This is not a valid reason to assume anything.
We used to not know what caused events such as volcanic eruptions. People concluded there were gods angry with humans. By your logic, we should have accepted this, correct?

If not, then why must we accept what the Catalyst says simply because we don't know his origin? What if the Catalyst is a Reaper construct designed only to manipulate Shepard? Should he still be trusted implicitly?

No because no-one actually met a god.

Ok, so we agree no one met a god back when we thought volcanos were just some omnipotent being not liking us.

Can we also agree that, given time, humans were able to understand what causes volcanoes?

I'm going to assume the answer to that is yes (if not, I'll have to agree to disagree with you, because any discussion would never gain anything for either of us.)

Then, if we accept that in the past humans have been able to gain an understanding of things that we did not previously know, and that this has happened countless times (disease, volcanoes, eclipses, earthquakes, the earth not being flat, etc), then wouldn't it be logical to conclude that the creation of the Catalyst is something that, given time, we could understand.

Now, look back at the premise that we accept what the Catalyst said because we don't know how it was created. Taking into account the numerous examples of humans gaining understanding of things they didn't previously know, it logically follows that we would assume we simply haven't had time to understand the origin/reasoning for the Catlyst's creation. Then, the Catalyst would be the equivalent of assuming the Earth is flat. It is not something that we must accept due to a lack of information.

[Luviagelita]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Luviagelita wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Zix13 wrote...
Control -> more synthetics, reapers still need to kill everyone
Synthesis -> More synthetics, reapers still need to kill everyone, in fact, current war with the reapers continues
Destroy -> more synthetics, no reapers to kill everyone regardless of the hostility of synthetics

No, no, no.

Control= more synthetics, Shepard is the Catalyst and can attempt new solution
Synthesis= Reapers are free of the Catalyst, we can work with them, more synthetics, however, the upgraded hybrids are now capable of competing with them and the risk of omnicide is nonexistent
Destroy= More synthetics, no Reapers capable of stopping them, organic life is forever extinct.

Excuse me, we have a proof that synthetics aren't nesessarily hostile to organics. We can only speculate if this problem is so deadly to organic life. So it's a matter of hope for the future (which is natural for a human who makes this choice) and we have no evidence that synthetics actually would pose such a threat.
The only threat we see are the Reapers. So this cycles of raising people for slaughter were correct in your opinion?

...Damn I hope my English isn't so bad for native speakers))

This is quoted for truth.

Your english is fine, by the way.  What is your native language, if I may ask?

Thank you. I usually don't visit foreign forums, so I was a bit worried if my English is good enough. As for my native language, it's Russian.

[LelianaHawke]

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

Well no, you can't just cut the catalyst out.
He is a key part of the story.

you're basically saying that the catalyst is in the game therefore has to be believed at face value?

[blooregard]

G Kevin wrote...

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

G Kevin wrote...
Organic life can never be forever extinct. As long as the basic laws of nature are followed, organics will always be created from star dust.

Just wanted to put that out there.

Not if synthetics are on the planet and destory all life forms they come across.
They wouldn't get the chance to devolop.

There will always be the lucky planet that will escape from such things. Synthetics will have to visit many, many worlds to find life to destroy, the time it would take will allow for growth.

Not to mention that time left looking for new organics to kill will give the conquered planets time to create more life.

[covertdrizzt]

To OP: what the catalyst says about the singularity is debunked in the game Edi, peace with geth
Control and synthesis are much worse in the longterm because the reapers are still alive.
Did everyone forget that the reapers are the biggest threat? The reapers and their starbrat master have destroyed countless civilazations.

[MisterJB]

Random Jerkface wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

organic life is forever extinct.

Can someone please explain how this is possible? Because my mind is continually being blown by this assertion.

Synthetics develop at a much faster rate than organics. After only 300 years, the geth match organic civilizations that took 50 000 years to build.
As we can see on Earth, a more advanced species doesn't take into consideration the well being of less advanced species when planning their expansion. Humans have extinguished species we weren't even aware were there until they were gone.
So, even if they bear us no ill-will, the synthetics are a threat to organics. And the geth have proven that they will commit genocide if attacked regardless if we are a threat to them or not. And the organic races will not simply let synthetics advance at their expense.