284 réponses à ce sujet

[frylock23]

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

Just something I was wondering about the endings.
Destroy is the worst long-term choice even the catalyst says this, in case you missed it he said that the chaos will come back in about 50,000 years.

Problem is the game shows good guys and bad guys.
The bad guys are the illsive man and so on.
The good guys are anderson and hackett.
Hackett at one point says " dead Reapers is how we win this."
This is perhaps proof that the game is foreshadowing that you should destroy the reapers.
However one persons opinion is important but what really gets me is when anderson says "Bull****, they destroy us or we destroy them"
This is huge as this is the very last moment before you pick an option, at the very last minute a good guy is telling you to destroy them.

I know this may have been brought up but I find this very intresting for the good guys to pick something that is actually an option that will kill all organic life.
In case you didn't know foreshadowing is when something futher along in the story is hinted at and we all respect Hackett and Anderson and they are telling us to destroy the Reapers.

The argument against this may be that they didn't know that destroy would be as bad as this, however that is easily shutdown when we take this as an actual story and reliase that Bioware may be showing that Destory is the best option.

Thing is  Bioware knew about the ending when they made all these scenes so I believe we are being shown that destroy is the way to go.
BTW I really like the ending and feel this adds to a much harder choice when making the ending choice.

How do you know all life will be wiped out in 50,000 years? The only ones wiping out all life are the Catalyst and his Reaper Cabal. We can only guess at what will happen in 50,000 years without them. Remember, you have no proof beyond his word.

I don't know about you, but when I was in debate, my coach taught me that to win an argument, you needed to offer actual proof of your assertions beyond simply making them. All the Catalyst does in make his assertion. Stop being in awe of the supposed intelligence you perceive him to have and pretend for one second that he's just another guy on the street telling you this. You'd quite rightly laugh at him. Just because he's a Reaper AI doesn't suddenly make him beyond reproach.

[Baa Baa]

JamesBondHero wrote...

 HERE COMES THE TWIST:
Destroy is the best ending.

[o Ventus]

MisterJB wrote...

o Ventus wrote...
EDI is peaceful.

EDI is a single sapient. A race of EDIs would not be peaceful.

The geth are peaceful. The heretics aren't, but as I've already explained, the heretics are under Reaper influence.

And as I've already explained, the heretics, which are geth, freely chose to attack organics to improve their lot in life.
And the geth attacked every organic that attempted to communicate them. They might choose to isolate themselves but they are certainly not peaceful.

The credit-thief AI isn't even doing anything harmful.

Besides stealing. And it chose to take out as many organics as possible rather than attempt communication once it had been found

The zha'til, again, were corrupted by the Reapers. Prior to that, they were helping the zha, not killing them.

Yes but when the zha's world had been saved and they would attempt to expand into space, they would not be peaceful to other races.
And if there were separed nations amongst the zha, they were not peaceful to each other.

1. Because you know this. Somehow. Alrighty then. You've proven me wrong with your infallible logic.

2. Al Qaeda, which is a human organization, rammed a commercial airliner into the twin towers, and another into the Pentagon. They are not representative of humanity as a whole.

3. Because both the turian police and Shepard were intent on destroying it. Never mind that it never actually kills anyone, but whatever.

4. So you've been talking out your ass and making baseless assumptions. Please, don't become a politician, doctor, or anything that involves actual human communication. If the zha were hostile to OTHER ZHA, that would be ORGANIC VERSUS ORGANIC CONFLICT, YOU IDIOT.

Modifié par o Ventus, 28 mai 2012 - 08:28 .

[MisterJB]

Random Jerkface wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Thus proving geth are willing to destroy organics if that helps them.

Just as some organics are willing to destroy organics if it will help them. What is your point? The entire crux is that both synthetic and organics are sapient beings. No one is more likely to destroy the galaxy than the other is on the merit of body composition alone.

Not some, all. The only thing keeping sapients from taking what belongs to other sapients is fear of retribution and, in rare cases, emotions like remorse which don't burden synthetics, BTW.
Synthetics advance at a much faster rate than organics so, they have a much better chance to reach a point where they won't need to fear retribution from organics.
In such a case, if we become a burden on their expansion, there will be nothing to stop them from simply destroying us all.

[ericjdev]

synthesis destroys every culture in the galaxy and control doesn't even end the cycle, destroy seems like the best long term solution.

[blooregard]

MisterJB wrote...

o Ventus wrote...
EDI is peaceful.

EDI is a single sapient. A race of EDIs would not be peaceful.

The geth are peaceful. The heretics aren't, but as I've already explained, the heretics are under Reaper influence.

And as I've already explained, the heretics, which are geth, freely chose to attack organics to improve their lot in life.
And the geth attacked every organic that attempted to communicate them. They might choose to isolate themselves but they are certainly not peaceful.

The credit-thief AI isn't even doing anything harmful.

Besides stealing. And it chose to take out as many organics as possible rather than attempt communication once it had been found

The zha'til, again, were corrupted by the Reapers. Prior to that, they were helping the zha, not killing them.

Yes but when the zha's world had been saved and they would attempt to expand into space, they would not be peaceful to other races.
And if there were separed nations amongst the zha, they were not peaceful to each other.

A race of EDIs? That's like Joker's Asari right there.

Anyway the Geth are peacful  their willingness to follow the Reapers is due to a math error.

>You rewrite the heritics and they join the normal Geth.

>Quarians attack the Geth and they're driven to accept help from the Reapers.

>Peace betwen the Quarians and Geth is possible as the Geth didn't want to fight.



Synthetics have no desire to harm organics unless its for self preservation.

[blooregard]

MisterJB wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Thus proving geth are willing to destroy organics if that helps them.

Just as some organics are willing to destroy organics if it will help them. What is your point? The entire crux is that both synthetic and organics are sapient beings. No one is more likely to destroy the galaxy than the other is on the merit of body composition alone.

Not some, all. The only thing keeping sapients from taking what belongs to other sapients is fear of retribution and, in rare cases, emotions like remorse which don't burden synthetics, BTW.
Synthetics advance at a much faster rate than organics so, they have a much better chance to reach a point where they won't need to fear retribution from organics.
In such a case, if we become a burden on their expansion, there will be nothing to stop them from simply destroying us all.

You have to remember synthetics have no need to expand they're all programming.

Modifié par blooregard, 28 mai 2012 - 08:35 .

[o Ventus]

MisterJB wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Thus proving geth are willing to destroy organics if that helps them.

Just as some organics are willing to destroy organics if it will help them. What is your point? The entire crux is that both synthetic and organics are sapient beings. No one is more likely to destroy the galaxy than the other is on the merit of body composition alone.

Not some, all. The only thing keeping sapients from taking what belongs to other sapients is fear of retribution and, in rare cases, emotions like remorse which don't burden synthetics, BTW.
Synthetics advance at a much faster rate than organics so, they have a much better chance to reach a point where they won't need to fear retribution from organics.
In such a case, if we become a burden on their expansion, there will be nothing to stop them from simply destroying us all.

Why would a synthetic even feel the need to expand territory? The geth exist primarily as software, and thus don't need bodies. EDI is software, and only has a body because she desires it. The credit thief AI is software. IT isn't like the synthetics are imperialistic. Did you all of a sudden forget the geth's isolationist views? Where they withdrew themselves from the public eye and never once attempted to even communicate or move out of the Perseus veil?

What base do you have for synthetics advancing on their own? In the real world, this doesn't happen. In-game, it doesn't happen either. The geth have remained stagnant. EDI doesn't "upgrade" herself, she modifies her programming, and even then, only after Joker unshackles her.

Modifié par o Ventus, 28 mai 2012 - 08:40 .

[MisterJB]

o Ventus wrote...
1. Because you know this. Somehow. Alrighty then. You've proven me wrong with your infallible logic.

Do you deny all races in the ME universe compete for dominion of the galaxy? Then why would a synthetic race be any different?

2. Al Qaeda, which is a human organization, rammed a commercial airliner into the twin towers, and another into the Pentagon. They are not representative of humanity as a whole.

Should I write a list of human attrocities? We are not a peaceful species.
Geth attacked any vessels entering their space long before Sovereign contacted them.

4. So you've been talking out your ass and making baseless assumptions. Please, don't become a politician, doctor, or anything that involves actual human communication. If the zha were hostile to OTHER ZHA, that would be ORGANIC VERSUS ORGANIC CONFLICT, YOU IDIOT.

Completely missing the point, aren't we?
I have never denied conflicts between organics exist. Conflict is a constant of any sapient species. Synthetics are simply much more likely to wipe out all life because they develop must faster than us and we wouldn't be able to compete with them.

[o Ventus]

MisterJB wrote...

o Ventus wrote...
1. Because you know this. Somehow. Alrighty then. You've proven me wrong with your infallible logic.

Do you deny all races in the ME universe compete for dominion of the galaxy? Then why would a synthetic race be any different?

2. Al Qaeda, which is a human organization, rammed a commercial airliner into the twin towers, and another into the Pentagon. They are not representative of humanity as a whole.

Should I write a list of human attrocities? We are not a peaceful species.
Geth attacked any vessels entering their space long before Sovereign contacted them.

4. So you've been talking out your ass and making baseless assumptions. Please, don't become a politician, doctor, or anything that involves actual human communication. If the zha were hostile to OTHER ZHA, that would be ORGANIC VERSUS ORGANIC CONFLICT, YOU IDIOT.

Completely missing the point, aren't we?
I have never denied conflicts between organics exist. Conflict is a constant of any sapient species. Synthetics are simply much more likely to wipe out all life because they develop must faster than us and we wouldn't be able to compete with them.

1. I actually do deny that, because they don't. The only race that appears to be vying for total control is the batarians, and even then, only the loyalists to the Hegemony. The batarians also aren't synthetic.

2. Out of fear of another war. The only organic species they had contact with tried to exterminate them. It's an irrational fear, but understandable knowing their prior history. again, not a point that's exactly strengthening your argument.

3. Synthetics do not, and never have, advanced on their own. They haven't done it in real life, and they haven't done it in-game. 

[Peranor]

Shaani wrote...

Destroy means that organic and synthetic life are free to find out for themselves rather he's right or not, and free to find their own solution, instead of having a brutal solution forced upon them by an outside power.

It is the best long term choice for both parties, because it allows them self-determination and the chance to decide the future for themselves.

This

[Reorte]

o Ventus wrote...

Why would a synthetic even feel the need to expand territory? The geth exist primarily as software, and thus don't need bodies. EDI is software, and only has a body because she desires it. The credit thief AI is software. IT isn't like the synthetics are imperialistic.

What base do you have for synthetics advancing on their own? In the real world, this doesn't happen. In-game, it doesn't happen either. The geth have remained stagnant. EDI doesn't "upgrade" herself, she modifies her programming, and even then, only after Joker unshackles her.

Although I broadly agree with you I don't agree with the last part. The geth haven't remained stagnant. Tali mentions that her priority in what to send back to her father was technology that the geth have developed themselves. Also, although they seem to have vanished after the first game the hoppers and their variants were something that were developed by the geth. Finally, their Dyson-ish hub thing would've changed them massively. They don't advance in real life because we're nowhere near the technology of creating anything capable of doing so (with a few very small exceptions, look up genetic algorithms).

On to the points I agree with: If an AI is truly self-aware and under full self-control it will either have emotions or it simply won't do anything. Without any drives, which are fundamentally emotional, it'll just sit there doing nothing. Desire is emotion and even a struggle to survive is therefore an emotion.

Modifié par Reorte, 28 mai 2012 - 08:42 .

[o Ventus]

Reorte wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Why would a synthetic even feel the need to expand territory? The geth exist primarily as software, and thus don't need bodies. EDI is software, and only has a body because she desires it. The credit thief AI is software. IT isn't like the synthetics are imperialistic.

What base do you have for synthetics advancing on their own? In the real world, this doesn't happen. In-game, it doesn't happen either. The geth have remained stagnant. EDI doesn't "upgrade" herself, she modifies her programming, and even then, only after Joker unshackles her.

Although I broadly agree with you I don't agree with the last part. The geth haven't remained stagnant. Tali mentions that her priority in what to send back to her father was technology that the geth have developed themselves. Also, although they seem to have vanished after the first game the hoppers and their variants were something that were developed by the geth. Finally, their Dyson-ish hub thing would've changed them massively.

On to the points I agree with: If an AI is truly self-aware and under full self-control it will either have emotions or it simply won't do anything. Without any drives, which are fundamentally emotional, it'll just sit there doing nothing. Desire is emotion and even a struggle to survive is therefore an emotion.

She says that they were creating new geth (Hence the hoppers), not upgrading processors or video cards. Creating a new body for a preexisting mind is different than upgrading the mind itself. As has been explained, the "dyson sphere" (That wasn't even what they were making, Legion just used that as an example to demonstrate the scale) was basically a REALLY big hard drive to store all of the geth programs.

Modifié par o Ventus, 28 mai 2012 - 08:45 .

[Bill Casey]

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Obeded the 2nd wrote...

Well no, you can't just cut the catalyst out.
He is a key part of the story.

The Citadel is the Catalyst...
The Reapers built the Citadel...

The citidale is part of the catalyst.

No...

[MisterJB]

o Ventus wrote...
1. I actually do deny that, because they don't. The only race that appears to be vying for total control is the batarians, and even then, only the loyalists to the Hegemony. The batarians also aren't synthetic.

...you're not serious. You can't be.
You do realize the Council is a tyrannical government where the few (turians, salarians, asari) dominate the many(all the other species), right?

2. Out of fear of another war. The only organic species they had contact with tried to exterminate them. It's an irrational fear, but understandable knowing their prior history. again, not a point that's exactly strengthening your argument.

And how many horrors have been commited in the name of survival?

3. Synthetics do not, and never have, advanced on their own. They haven't done it in real life, and they haven't done it in-game. 

They have their own space stations, fleets, have been building their Sphere for over 200 years and draw resources from asteroid belts. They advance, same as any other species.

[Shallyah]

Look, boring thread #2342 where nobody will change anyone else's formed opinions.

*just waits for EC DLC*

Modifié par Shallyah, 28 mai 2012 - 08:47 .

[T-Raks]

MisterJB wrote...
 
Completely missing the point, aren't we?
I have never denied conflicts between organics exist. Conflict is a constant of any sapient species. Synthetics are simply much more likely to wipe out all life because they develop must faster than us and we wouldn't be able to compete with them.

Huh? Why develop synthetics faster? For 1) they are created by organics, so their "boundaries of thought" are limited and most likely inferior (EDI and Legion for example don't seem to be more knowledgable, do they?), because organics definitely didn't implement all knowledge into them and 2) they might be even more limited by "energy demands" to keep them running than organics are.

[LelianaHawke]

Often trading is much more profitable for advancement than war. Synthetics would surely realize this.

Synthetics don't *have* to go to war to get what they want. If they want security, they can develop shielding. If they want resources, they can trade.

Modifié par LelianaHawke, 28 mai 2012 - 08:48 .

[MisterJB]

blooregard wrote...
You have to remember synthetics have no need to expand they're all programming.

They still require space to house their hubs and they do mine asteroids for resources.

[MisterJB]

T-Raks wrote...
Huh? Why develop synthetics faster? For 1) they are created by organics, so their "boundaries of thought" are limited and most likely inferior (EDI and Legion for example don't seem to be more knowledgable, do they?), because organics definitely didn't implement all knowledge into them and

True AIs like EDI are. Remember what she said she could do in a space battle to an enemy ship? Organic operators can't match it.
Now picture a billion of EDIs waging war against the same number of organics? Who do you think would win?

2) they might be even more limited by "energy demands" to keep them running than organics are.

It doesn't mean the need does not exist.

[Silent Rage]

MisterJB wrote...

o Ventus wrote...
1. I actually do deny that, because they don't. The only race that appears to be vying for total control is the batarians, and even then, only the loyalists to the Hegemony. The batarians also aren't synthetic.

...you're not serious. You can't be.
You do realize the Council is a tyrannical government where the few (turians, salarians, asari) dominate the many(all the other species), right?

2. Out of fear of another war. The only organic species they had contact with tried to exterminate them. It's an irrational fear, but understandable knowing their prior history. again, not a point that's exactly strengthening your argument.

And how many horrors have been commited in the name of survival?

3. Synthetics do not, and never have, advanced on their own. They haven't done it in real life, and they haven't done it in-game. 

They have their own space stations, fleets, have been building their Sphere for over 200 years and draw resources from asteroid belts. They advance, same as any other species.

You can try as hard as you can but there is a logical response for every one of your comments but your responses are just no.

[o Ventus]

MisterJB wrote...

o Ventus wrote...
1. I actually do deny that, because they don't. The only race that appears to be vying for total control is the batarians, and even then, only the loyalists to the Hegemony. The batarians also aren't synthetic.

...you're not serious. You can't be.
You do realize the Council is a tyrannical government where the few (turians, salarians, asari) dominate the many(all the other species), right?

2. Out of fear of another war. The only organic species they had contact with tried to exterminate them. It's an irrational fear, but understandable knowing their prior history. again, not a point that's exactly strengthening your argument.

And how many horrors have been commited in the name of survival?

3. Synthetics do not, and never have, advanced on their own. They haven't done it in real life, and they haven't done it in-game. 

They have their own space stations, fleets, have been building their Sphere for over 200 years and draw resources from asteroid belts. They advance, same as any other species.

1. No it isn't. Look at the definition of the word "tyrannical". It's not anything like a real world government. Among the 3 council races, it's probably closest to communism than anything. It isn't like the Council has a secret Cabal or the Illuminati, ready to kill the underground resistance.

2. None spring to mind. The Holocaust had nothing to do with survival. The St. Valentine's Day massacre had nothing to do with survival. The Russian gulags had nothing to do with survival.

3. Construction =/= advancement, AFAWK, the geth only had the 1 heretic station. Even then, heretics =/= mainstream geth. If they had Rannoch, why would they bother expanding out in space? They also have 1 fleet. Count it, 1 fleet. That fleet also already existed since the geth were constructed as both a labor force and tools of war. The geth only added to it after winning the Morning War.

[MisterJB]

LelianaHawke wrote...

Often trading is much more profitable for advancement than war. Synthetics would surely realize this.

Synthetics don't *have* to go to war to get what they want. If they want security, they can develop shielding. If they want resources, they can trade.

Do humans trade with animals? of course not.

[T-Raks]

MisterJB wrote...

T-Raks wrote...
Huh? Why develop synthetics faster? For 1) they are created by organics, so their "boundaries of thought" are limited and most likely inferior (EDI and Legion for example don't seem to be more knowledgable, do they?), because organics definitely didn't implement all knowledge into them and

True AIs like EDI are. Remember what she said she could do in a space battle to an enemy ship? Organic operators can't match it.
Now picture a billion of EDIs waging war against the same number of organics? Who do you think would win?

2) they might be even more limited by "energy demands" to keep them running than organics are.

It doesn't mean the need does not exist.

EDI can aact faster in combat for example, yes. But understanding things that are not in her programming? Things that are not 0 and 1? Hardly.

[o Ventus]

LelianaHawke wrote...

Often trading is much more profitable for advancement than war. Synthetics would surely realize this.

Synthetics don't *have* to go to war to get what they want. If they want security, they can develop shielding. If they want resources, they can trade.

This. They operate on logic, not emotion.