86 réponses à ce sujet

[Romeo Longsword]

The problem about rogues you people have shared so far is that it seems you havent played the class enough or have build a proper one yet. If you say, "sorry I am a roleplayer I dont build powerful characters", I respect that but don;'t say, "oh for some reason I find it easier to play as a DW power wise".

Rogues out tank any warriors with shield or with out, this happens at mid to high level, it is not "squigy" at all. all my rogues can tank unbound in Nightmare toe to toe, he as and attack of 140 ish and defense to 160 +, not the highest you could get but it is enough for me to out last many situations.

Somebody said, "On paper, DW rogues appear superior to DW warriors. In practice
however, DW warriors output far more damage over the course of the
game." Totally poor comment really, it is the complete opposite.

DW warriors does higher dmg on paper than rogues in gernal, while rogues's defense, attack and damage all raises parellely as you level up, DW warriors require to spread their status between dex and str, leaving them with a lower attack rating and with defense totally relly on your gear. It does not matter what matter how hard you could hit, but if you can't hit your target, you are not doing your DPS.

I am of course, judging on the typically style of DW warrior building where one would get 26 dex enough then the rest would be mainly  invest in str. You could indeed argue that your DW warrior out damage my rogue as well as defense by building it all dex based and using dagger as well.

[Love-Buzz]

JJM152 wrote...

On paper, DW rogues appear superior to DW warriors. In practice however, DW warriors output far more damage over the course of the game.

No waiting for flanking, no worries about armor penetration, no hoping for a proc of paralyze in order to use Coup De Grace. Your special attacks are actually worth something as a warrior, with dual weapon sweep and whirlwind actually hitting for large chunks (my dual wield axe warrior would frequently get 200+ combined hits with these moves on multiple mobs).

Most importantly, the problem with the "paper" comparisons is that they rely upon contrived scenarios that don't exist in the game, such as: Not accounting for lost DPS time when moving in for a flank, or having to stun the enemy. Not counting for the loss (less optimal) dps done when you are not in a backstab position (further compounded by not accounting for average armor mitigation on the relatively weak dagger damage, which makes this dps "loss" even more substantial).

People who claim that DW rogues blow DW warriors out of the water are retards, pure and simple. They can theorycraft all day and have gigantic hypothetical wankfests with their calculators, but all they do is cherry pick data that has almost nothing to do with how the game actually plays.

Massive ROFL @ this.  YOU are the theorycrafter who either a) never played a rogue, made his rogue wrong, or c) sucked with his rogue.

First obvious reason you have no idea what you are talking about: you think rogues have a problem with armor penetration.  That's funny, cuz their primary stat (cunning) INCREASES armor penetration.  My rogue's armor pen was 19/18 on both hands w/o buffs.

Also, daggers may have low dmg-per-stat gain, BUT with tainted blade + lethality, cunning is adding to dmg two ways, and that's not even mentioning Exploit Weakness when u backstab, which makes it THREE ways.  And no, you don't lose out on attack, as you can easily get 120+ attack from dex/talents, 90+% hit rate and still having cunning ~70 (ya, max dex = max fail, maybe that's why you think rogues suck).

And the whole notion that backstabbing is hard somehow...  Ya, maybe if you lead with your rogue or if you stealth first, then run all the way behind everyone, then run back in.  Instead, lead with your warrior and TAUNT.  OMG, suddenly monsters have their backs to your rogue!!  If one stray happens to not turn around, Dirty Fighting + 2 attacks = dead (and you can cancel the post-cast animation on dirty fighting to make the stun take almost no time).  While you were killing that one stray and most things are focusing your warrior, get your mage in position for cone of cold/mind blast.  Cast one, and everything is dead a couple seconds later cuz ur rogue just julienned everything.  Maybe if you play on xbox and don't pause ever, DW warriors are more efficient, but if you actually coordinate well, then all this "backstabz r hard lulz" is just excuses for being bad.

DW warriors might clean up whites faster with Dual Swipe + Whirlwind, but you probably don't realize that Tainted Blade also boosts damage on those skills, so Rogues can AoE at near-warrior levels.  And you neglect to mention that maximizing your AoE also requires you to micro your warriors (not that it really takes much effort - but it's about as time consuming as moving your rogue 4 paces for backstabs).

While warriors might have a tiny edge on whites, rogues absolutely flatten them on yellows/oranges.  By the time you finish swinging Punisher, rogue autostabs would have killed the target, w/o stamina (again, just cone of cold, or mind blast if the whole idea of "aiming" is hard for you).  Rogues are also smarter to put +5 ele dmg runes in b/c paralysis is for nubs and dagger speed = faster application of that +5.

To sum, DW warrior = dps on cruise control, on a higher hp/armor character that is great for xbox.  Rogue = godly dps that you have to use quickly and smartly, but once you learn, is so much better it's not even funny.  And I know this because I've played them both, and before I made my Rogue, I'd hear ppl yap about their dps and think "I dunno... my DW warrior rapes pretty hard..." but then you play one, build it right, and you will know.

Modifié par Love-Buzz, 11 décembre 2009 - 04:52 .

[Orlomm]

The only characters I can seem to play anymore are DW Warriors. My first playthrough was a S&S warrior but after trying DW I just love it. I tried a mage, I've never really been a fan of anything that uses mana. Tried a DW rogue and hated having to get behind to backstab, tried ranged rogue and found auto-attacking constantly rather boring. The Archery skills seem rather "meh," the attacks take forever to fire. Took a 2H Warrior to level 10 or so, didn't like the slow speed or combat animations for it.



Then I decided to try a S&S warrior again, couldn't take the slower attack speed after playing DW. So now all my characters end up as DW warriors. I'm going to try and make a DW Rogue who doesn't rely on backstabs. Not sure how well that will work.

[Gliese]

congokurtz wrote...

Nokturnal Lex wrote...


 I'm not forced to have the annoying red head or flamboyient french dude in my party to pick locks.

I always thought he sounded more Spanish than French.  He's like a slightly more effeminant sounding Antonio Banderas.

Definitely spanish. Which makes me wonder since the Antivans in Denerim sound russian. But I can't remember Zevran's backstory atm.

[Love-Buzz]

Orlomm wrote...

The only characters I can seem to play anymore are DW Warriors. My first playthrough was a S&S warrior but after trying DW I just love it. I tried a mage, I've never really been a fan of anything that uses mana. Tried a DW rogue and hated having to get behind to backstab, tried ranged rogue and found auto-attacking constantly rather boring. The Archery skills seem rather "meh," the attacks take forever to fire. Took a 2H Warrior to level 10 or so, didn't like the slow speed or combat animations for it.

This is totally agree with.  For all the rape that rogues can be, they are pretty bland to play.  You go through the same routine every battle and all the "fun" of playing them is just watching the numbers.  I was really skeptical about 2H warriors too, but playing one right now, they are lot more fun than people give them credit for, especially once you get the stamina to use all their moves (they also have the nice benefit of not having Tainted Blood proc the Dual Weapon Expert DoT).

[AXidenT Gamer]

I love my DW Warrior, I feel that it gives me freedom to have some fun while doing some damage...

[Nokturnal Lex]

Romeo Longsword wrote...

The problem about rogues you people have shared so far is that it seems you havent played the class enough or have build a proper one yet. If you say, "sorry I am a roleplayer I dont build powerful characters", I respect that but don;'t say, "oh for some reason I find it easier to play as a DW power wise".

Rogues out tank any warriors with shield or with out, this happens at mid to high level, it is not "squigy" at all. all my rogues can tank unbound in Nightmare toe to toe, he as and attack of 140 ish and defense to 160 +, not the highest you could get but it is enough for me to out last many situations.

Somebody said, "On paper, DW rogues appear superior to DW warriors. In practice
however, DW warriors output far more damage over the course of the
game." Totally poor comment really, it is the complete opposite.

DW warriors does higher dmg on paper than rogues in gernal, while rogues's defense, attack and damage all raises parellely as you level up, DW warriors require to spread their status between dex and str, leaving them with a lower attack rating and with defense totally relly on your gear. It does not matter what matter how hard you could hit, but if you can't hit your target, you are not doing your DPS.

I am of course, judging on the typically style of DW warrior building where one would get 26 dex enough then the rest would be mainly  invest in str. You could indeed argue that your DW warrior out damage my rogue as well as defense by building it all dex based and using dagger as well.

You forgot to input the dps increase of Perfect Striking into the mix, the +100 attack from perfect striking makes warriors a lot stronger then rogues against elite + boss mobs. Rogues have no such ability and can't match warrior attack while perfect striking is activated. Sure it's duration isn't really long but it's long enough with such a small cooldown that it enables warriors to have a much higher hit success rate then rogues during boss battles.

As far as backstabbing vs flanking as a warrior. There is a good number of boss mobs (revenants especially) who can't be backstabbed making backstab talents useless.

Personally I had my DW warrior go with a dagger build instead of an axe build due to the nature of perfect striking + momentum + berserk. Berserk increases damage by 8 and daggers are the quickest weapon in the game allowing for the +8 to dmg to increase dmg more then using slower weapons. Also the quicker the weapon the more damage enchants will do in it. 2 +10 to darkspawn and 1 +5 electicity dmg on a dagger with mommentum on... yea that's a lot of damage. With this build you can usually kill any boss on hard or nightmare mode before perfect striking even turns off with the exception of dragons due to their ability to knock you back/down.

As far as 2H warrior I have nothing against them what so ever, what a 2H warrior lacks in damage compared to a DW warrior, he makes up for in support.  For that matter i don't mind sword and shield warriors either (they're obviously the tanks of the game and do great at it) Both of these builds offer much more attacks that disable or debuff the mobs allowing for the DW warrior to do even more damage =-p

Those 2 builds also have the ability to be immune to knockdown effects unlike the DW warrior.

Although I could never see myself making a 2h Warrior due to there already being 2 of them in-game you can choose from. (Oghren being my preference due to him having 2 specialization points to Sten's 1)

And DW rogues shouldn't be crying over less damage then DW warriors, the day a DW warrior can stealth during battles and become basically invincable while he tosses flasks at all his enemies is when you should start crying. Not to mention they lack the ability to pick locks and disarm traps.

Modifié par Nokturnal Lex, 11 décembre 2009 - 06:42 .

[Romeo Longsword]

Nokturnal Lex wrote...

Romeo Longsword wrote...

The problem about rogues you people have shared so far is that it seems you havent played the class enough or have build a proper one yet. If you say, "sorry I am a roleplayer I dont build powerful characters", I respect that but don;'t say, "oh for some reason I find it easier to play as a DW power wise".

Rogues out tank any warriors with shield or with out, this happens at mid to high level, it is not "squigy" at all. all my rogues can tank unbound in Nightmare toe to toe, he as and attack of 140 ish and defense to 160 +, not the highest you could get but it is enough for me to out last many situations.

Somebody said, "On paper, DW rogues appear superior to DW warriors. In practice
however, DW warriors output far more damage over the course of the
game." Totally poor comment really, it is the complete opposite.

DW warriors does higher dmg on paper than rogues in gernal, while rogues's defense, attack and damage all raises parellely as you level up, DW warriors require to spread their status between dex and str, leaving them with a lower attack rating and with defense totally relly on your gear. It does not matter what matter how hard you could hit, but if you can't hit your target, you are not doing your DPS.

I am of course, judging on the typically style of DW warrior building where one would get 26 dex enough then the rest would be mainly  invest in str. You could indeed argue that your DW warrior out damage my rogue as well as defense by building it all dex based and using dagger as well.

You forgot to input the dps increase of Perfect Striking into the mix, the +100 attack from perfect striking makes warriors a lot stronger then rogues against elite + boss mobs. Rogues have no such ability and can't match warrior attack while perfect striking is activated. Sure it's duration isn't really long but it's long enough with such a small cooldown that it enables warriors to have a much higher hit success rate then rogues during boss battles.

As far as backstabbing vs flanking as a warrior. There is a good number of boss mobs (revenants especially) who can't be backstabbed making backstab talents useless.

Personally I had my DW warrior go with a dagger build instead of an axe build due to the nature of perfect striking + momentum + berserk. Berserk increases damage by 8 and daggers are the quickest weapon in the game allowing for the +8 to dmg to increase dmg more then using slower weapons. With this build you can usually kill any boss on hard or nightmare mode before perfect striking even turns off with the exception of dragons due to their ability to knock you back/down.

As far as 2H warrior I have nothing against them what so ever, what a 2H warrior lacks in damage compared to a DW warrior, he makes up for in support.  For that matter i don't mind sword and shield warriors either (they're obviously the tanks of the game and do great at it) Both of these builds offer much more attacks that disable or debuff the mobs allowing for the DW warrior to do even more damage =-p

Those 2 builds also have the ability to be immune to knockdown effects unlike the DW warrior.

Although I could never see myself making a 2h Warrior due to there already being 2 of them in-game you can choose from. (Oghren being my preference due to him having 2 specialization points to Sten's 1)

I tell you why I don't value your comment.

Your argument was perfect striking alone. You have not mentioned of the build of your DW warrior, and your situational combat sounds very abstract. Perfect strikling does not nesseary means you could do enough damage and attack that would out damage your targets before they do you in.

100+ attack is impressive to you? I tell you what, a cunning rogue with 120 attack still misses on bosses in nightmare, my rogue is on 140, that that 20 difference is very noticable. You are telling me, 100 attack that last a short time would out damage, out attack a rogue and better at taking down bosses? I LOL'ed please.

I can out kill high level boss enermy without any backstabing, from my posts I have not address the advantage of backstab because it does not always happen.

I don;t want to get into the immature arguement of you comparing with the class ability, because you would get into an imagary fight that is pointless. But let me give you an example, my rogue come up from stealth, dirty fighting stunned you, while my dagger has a grandmaster pally rune that continue to stun you, and kill you off right there. And in case you did not get stunned, I stealth away when you wake up, and wait for my dirty fighting cool down to finish, come out from stealth and stunn you and backstab you on repeat until the job is done.

See? A little bit childlish if you want to go into imagery paper fight. So what I am comparing here is attack, defense and damage, the very basic things of melee combat, and at high level, unless you are a full dex dw warrior, rogue out perform in combat espically to the bosses.

Modifié par Romeo Longsword, 11 décembre 2009 - 07:02 .

[arrrasdgaehjskmszkm]

I agree, Zevran`s voice is trying to be spanish. Look how he pronounces "Antiva" and things like that

First, please excuse my poor english...

Love-Buzz wrote...

JJM152 wrote...
On paper, DW rogues appear superior to DW warriors. In practice however, DW warriors output far more damage over the course of the game.
Most importantly, the problem with the "paper" comparisons is that they rely upon contrived scenarios that don't exist in the game, .

People who claim that DW rogues blow DW warriors out of the water are retards, pure and simple. They can theorycraft all day and have gigantic hypothetical wankfests with their calculators, but all they do is cherry pick data that has almost nothing to do with how the game actually plays.

Massive ROFL @ this.  YOU are the theorycrafter who either a) never played a rogue, made his rogue wrong, or c) sucked with his rogue.
To sum, DW warrior = dps on cruise control, on a higher hp/armor character that is great for xbox.  Rogue = godly dps that you have to use quickly and smartly, but once you learn, is so much better it's not even funny.  And I know this because I've played them both, and before I made my Rogue, I'd hear ppl yap about their dps and think "I dunno... my DW warrior rapes pretty hard..." but then you play one, build it right, and you will know.

I agree that DW warriors are very good at dealing damage, but I dont find this builds useful at all times
  When I play, my tank needs to.. well... tank.. so i need the warrior to be able to absorb damage. I dont say "DW sucks" at all, i say 2H and Shield warriors are more consistent in "Even the DW warrior has a incredible high damage ratio, I found that he is very vulnerable against archers ( I use Dexfix and my DW warrior gets hit pretty hard, compared with Alistair or another shield-bearer ).
And every enemy of the game can knock you down, stun, throwing you all over the room. No matter how uber you are, if you are surrounded by enemies, and fail your save against a simple shield bash, and the monsters beat you mercissely while you are in the floor calling wynne for help.
And best not to talk about drakes,werewolves, dragons and such.. you likely stay in the floor all the fight. It is disturbing seeing Sten or Allistair stand against a dragon´s punch, while your allmighty DW warrior beats the dust with ease.  
They can be flanked easely too , unlike shield-bearers.
  The DW Build, even powerful, its pretty straightforward.. I see enemy, i hit enemy, I see mobs, i taunt mobs, i kill mobs.. thats it. 
2H and shieldbearers are more versatile, more consistent and have cool abilities, like shatter armor and such. and as I said before, excels DW in many situations.
 Since in this game you have to   manage a party, I found DW warriors very limited.And I am not talking about numbers, I talk about real situations in game in hard mode.
  If 2H or shield-warriors are more eficient holding the front-lines, and mages will allways make more damage than your tank ( I think nobody can argue with this, unless you only use Wynne or another similar build ), and the abilities of warriors can only be used on combat ( unlike DW rogues or mages ).. well.. do I really want a a character like that in my party?. 
  So, in my opinion.if some other warrior build can make the tank role better, why dont  I use a DW rogue build?.  It has better abilities, in and out of combat, and you can have the tank role devoted to another character ( a better suited character for this role) and you can do the same damage (more or less) while evading blows (using feignd death or stealth, or  just becacuse Rogues can allways evade better than warriors)  whith the only drawback of losing some DW abilities until the high levels of the game. 
Like i say DW warriors are powerful, but very limited in a party.
 

[arrrasdgaehjskmszkm]

Romeo Longsword wrote...

Nokturnal Lex wrote...

Romeo Longsword wrote...

The problem about rogues you people have shared so far is that it seems you havent played the class enough or have build a proper one yet. If you say, "sorry I am a roleplayer I dont build powerful characters", I respect that but don;'t say, "oh for some reason I find it easier to play as a DW power wise".

Rogues out tank any warriors with shield or with out, this happens at mid to high level, it is not "squigy" at all. all my rogues can tank unbound in Nightmare toe to toe, he as and attack of 140 ish and defense to 160 +, not the highest you could get but it is enough for me to out last many situations.

Somebody said, "On paper, DW rogues appear superior to DW warriors. In practice
however, DW warriors output far more damage over the course of the
game." Totally poor comment really, it is the complete opposite.

DW warriors does higher dmg on paper than rogues in gernal, while rogues's defense, attack and damage all raises parellely as you level up, DW warriors require to spread their status between dex and str, leaving them with a lower attack rating and with defense totally relly on your gear. It does not matter what matter how hard you could hit, but if you can't hit your target, you are not doing your DPS.

I am of course, judging on the typically style of DW warrior building where one would get 26 dex enough then the rest would be mainly  invest in str. You could indeed argue that your DW warrior out damage my rogue as well as defense by building it all dex based and using dagger as well.

You forgot to input the dps increase of Perfect Striking into the mix, the +100 attack from perfect striking makes warriors a lot stronger then rogues against elite + boss mobs. Rogues have no such ability and can't match warrior attack while perfect striking is activated. Sure it's duration isn't really long but it's long enough with such a small cooldown that it enables warriors to have a much higher hit success rate then rogues during boss battles.

As far as backstabbing vs flanking as a warrior. There is a good number of boss mobs (revenants especially) who can't be backstabbed making backstab talents useless.

Personally I had my DW warrior go with a dagger build instead of an axe build due to the nature of perfect striking + momentum + berserk. Berserk increases damage by 8 and daggers are the quickest weapon in the game allowing for the +8 to dmg to increase dmg more then using slower weapons. With this build you can usually kill any boss on hard or nightmare mode before perfect striking even turns off with the exception of dragons due to their ability to knock you back/down.

As far as 2H warrior I have nothing against them what so ever, what a 2H warrior lacks in damage compared to a DW warrior, he makes up for in support.  For that matter i don't mind sword and shield warriors either (they're obviously the tanks of the game and do great at it) Both of these builds offer much more attacks that disable or debuff the mobs allowing for the DW warrior to do even more damage =-p

Those 2 builds also have the ability to be immune to knockdown effects unlike the DW warrior.

Although I could never see myself making a 2h Warrior due to there already being 2 of them in-game you can choose from. (Oghren being my preference due to him having 2 specialization points to Sten's 1)

I tell you why I don't value your comment.

Your argument was perfect striking alone. You have not mentioned of the build of your DW warrior, and your situational combat sounds very abstract. Perfect strikling does not nesseary means you could do enough damage and attack that would out damage your targets before they do you in.

100+ attack is impressive to you? I tell you what, a cunning rogue with 120 attack still misses on bosses in nightmare, my rogue is on 140, that that 20 difference is very noticable. You are telling me, 100 attack that last a short time would out damage, out attack a rogue and better at taking down bosses? I LOL'ed please.

I can out kill high level boss enermy without any backstabing, from my posts I have not address the advantage of backstab because it does not always happen.

I don;t want to get into the immature arguement of you comparing with the class ability, because you would get into an imagary fight that is pointless. But let me give you an example, my rogue come up from stealth, dirty fighting stunned you, while my dagger has a grandmaster pally rune that continue to stun you, and kill you off right there. And in case you did not get stunned, I stealth away when you wake up, and wait for my dirty fighting cool down to finish, come out from stealth and stunn you and backstab you on repeat until the job is done.

See? A little bit childlish if you want to go into imagery paper fight. So what I am comparing here is attack, defense and damage, the very basic things of melee combat, and at high level, unless you are a full dex dw warrior, rogue out perform in combat espically to the bosses.

    I was wondering when anybody make a post about PVP with characters in this game, discusions about DPS,  this class is uber than this, my builld make more damage, etc etc ..  MMORPG, really F****** up RPG playing very hard...

[Koralt]

JJM152 wrote...

No waiting for flanking

You shouldn't be waiting for flanking to just happen.

JJM152 wrote...

no worries about armor penetration

Daggers have more armor penetration than fullsize weapons.  Also, Cunning adds to armor penetration, so those Rogues gain even more benefit.

JJM152 wrote...

no hoping for a proc of paralyze in order to use Coup De Grace.

You don't have to wait for procs of paralyze.  Coup De Grace works when the foe is incapacitated, which includes stuns, freezes, knockdowns, etc.

JJM152 wrote...

Your special attacks are actually worth something as a warrior, with dual weapon sweep and whirlwind actually hitting for large chunks (my dual wield axe warrior would frequently get 200+ combined hits with these moves on multiple mobs).

My DW Dagger Rogue hits surprisingly hard with Dual-Weapon Sweep and Whirlwind.  Yes, an Axe user would probably hit for more, but it's all about proper positioning, and Rogues don't need to use abilities as often.

JJM152 wrote...

Not accounting for lost DPS time when moving in for a flank

If you're losing DPS by moving, it's either because A) you didn't position correctly initially or you moved as your
character began an attack animation, forcing it to break away without dealing damage.

JJM152 wrote...

or having to stun the enemy.

Again, you only need to incapacitate, and there are many ways to do that.  By extension, the more often you can incapacitate foes, the less often you need to flank (which, by the way, is ridiculously easy to do with Combat Movement).

JJM152 wrote...

Not counting for the loss (less optimal) dps done when you are not in a backstab position (further compounded by not accounting for average armor mitigation on the relatively weak dagger damage, which makes this dps "loss" even more substantial).

Daggers compensate for lower itemized damage with higher armor penetration.  Again, Cunning boosts that, and Lethality helps make up the damage difference.  Just a couple reasons why DW Rogues should always  use Cunning, always.

JJM152 wrote...

People who believe that having the most DPS matters are retards, pure and simple. They can brag all day and have gigantic unnecessary wankfests with their e-peens, but all they do is fail to realize that all that matters is having enough DPS.

Fixed.

prz l2play kthx

Modifié par Koralt, 11 décembre 2009 - 08:46 .

[nuculerman]

 It's really quite clear people can't be rational about this debate.  People arguing for DW rogues seem to not know how a DW warrior is played well and people arguing for DW warrior seems to not know how a DW rogue is played well.

Again, a DW warrior with axes out AoE DPS's a DW rogue in every way possible.  Thus, in mob fights a DW warrior is far more effective.  Period.  End of argument.  Meanwhile, a cunning build DW rogue out DPS's a DW warrior on single targets by quite a decent amount.  So on bosses a DW rogue with a lot of cunning is more effective.  Period.  End of argument.

Since the majority of this game is white mobs, people playing DW warrior will breeze through fights faster than a DW rogue every single time.  This gives the illusion that DW warrior is more powerful.

Since many power gamers judge their "effectiveness" by how well they can take down bosses, many people will swear DW rogue is far better than DW warrior.

At the end of the day, DW warrior is going to make the game go by quicker on every difficulty because, once again, for every boss battle there are 30 battles when your party is swarmed by 5-10 white enemies.  A DW warrior can end those fights before they even start.

At the end of the day, a DW rogue is going to have better "numbers" in every way possible.  His attack will be higher, his defense will likely be higher and his "most damage done to a single opponent" is obviously going to be higher.  

All that matters is play style.  If you want to shorten your game, play a DW warrior.  If you like seeing big numbers pop up over enemies heads, play a DW rogue.  At the end of the day either build will get you through nightmare with relative ease because both builds are pretty broken.

Any questions?

[Altharas]

Everyone seems to have missed out on the fact that by level 14~+ everysingle enemy with a shield (More than you'd expect) has flanking immunity, thus cannot be backstabbed. Plus, all the other baddies who are marginally bigger than you have atleast one way to knock you on your backside, and since you're a rogue im not seeing terribly high Physical resistance or dodge (Assuming cunning).



On fights with no knockback and no shields, rogue's are awesome. Otherwise? Nawwwww

[Romeo Longsword]

Altharas wrote...

Everyone seems to have missed out on the fact that by level 14~+ everysingle enemy with a shield (More than you'd expect) has flanking immunity, thus cannot be backstabbed. Plus, all the other baddies who are marginally bigger than you have atleast one way to knock you on your backside, and since you're a rogue im not seeing terribly high Physical resistance or dodge (Assuming cunning).

On fights with no knockback and no shields, rogue's are awesome. Otherwise? Nawwwww

You stupid stupid boy, I am guessing you a noob in rogue as well.

Mate, please make a effort when you try to form a view. My rogue resist much better than my tank due to high dex, i will teach you somthing now, dex is a phyical resist partly. And no doge? have you had your coffee this morning yet? My rogue has defense up to 160+, out tank a str based warrior.

Also, your "baddies" with shield can be backstabed, flanking is a different thing. Even with no backstab, a rogue would out last a str based, sheild or no sheild warrior on frontal fighting.

Modifié par Romeo Longsword, 11 décembre 2009 - 08:17 .

[Altharas]

Romeo Longsword wrote...

Altharas wrote...

Everyone seems to have missed out on the fact that by level 14~+ everysingle enemy with a shield (More than you'd expect) has flanking immunity, thus cannot be backstabbed. Plus, all the other baddies who are marginally bigger than you have atleast one way to knock you on your backside, and since you're a rogue im not seeing terribly high Physical resistance or dodge (Assuming cunning).

On fights with no knockback and no shields, rogue's are awesome. Otherwise? Nawwwww

You stupid stupid boy, I am guessing you a noob in rogue as well.

Mate, please make a effort when you try to form a view. My rogue resist much better than my tank due to high dex, i will teach you somthing now, dex is a phyical resist partly. And no doge? have you had your coffee this morning yet? My rogue has defense up to 160+, out tank a str based warrior.

Also, your "baddies" with shield can be backstabed, flanking is a different thing. Even with no backstab, a rogue would out last a str based, sheild or no sheild warrior on frontal fighting.

Please read the Assuming Cunning part. If you're Dex, you do less DPS than cunning, and imo less than a DW warrior. Only cunning does more DPS, but just isn't practical.

And backstabbing occurs only when flanking.

PLEASE try to be less offensive over such a trivial matter, hostility really isn't needed.

[Koralt]

nuculerman wrote...

 It's really quite clear people can't be rational about this debate.  People arguing for DW rogues seem to not know how a DW warrior is played well and people arguing for DW warrior seems to not know how a DW rogue is played well.

Again, a DW warrior with axes out AoE DPS's a DW rogue in every way possible.  Thus, in mob fights a DW warrior is far more effective.  Period.  End of argument.  Meanwhile, a cunning build DW rogue out DPS's a DW warrior on single targets by quite a decent amount.  So on bosses a DW rogue with a lot of cunning is more effective.  Period.  End of argument.

Since the majority of this game is white mobs, people playing DW warrior will breeze through fights faster than a DW rogue every single time.  This gives the illusion that DW warrior is more powerful.

Since many power gamers judge their "effectiveness" by how well they can take down bosses, many people will swear DW rogue is far better than DW warrior.

At the end of the day, DW warrior is going to make the game go by quicker on every difficulty because, once again, for every boss battle there are 30 battles when your party is swarmed by 5-10 white enemies.  A DW warrior can end those fights before they even start.

At the end of the day, a DW rogue is going to have better "numbers" in every way possible.  His attack will be higher, his defense will likely be higher and his "most damage done to a single opponent" is obviously going to be higher.  

All that matters is play style.  If you want to shorten your game, play a DW warrior.  If you like seeing big numbers pop up over enemies heads, play a DW rogue.  At the end of the day either build will get you through nightmare with relative ease because both builds are pretty broken.

Any questions?

QFT.

[Fleapants]

Romeo Longsword wrote...
You stupid stupid boy, I am guessing you a noob in rogue as well.

Mate, please make a effort when you try to form a view. My rogue resist much better than my tank due to high dex, i will teach you somthing now, dex is a phyical resist partly. And no doge? have you had your coffee this morning yet? My rogue has defense up to 160+, out tank a str based warrior.

Also, your "baddies" with shield can be backstabed, flanking is a different thing. Even with no backstab, a rogue would out last a str based, sheild or no sheild warrior on frontal fighting.

You should step away from your computer.

[Discobird]

nuculerman wrote...

Again, a DW warrior with axes out AoE DPS's a DW rogue in every way possible.  Thus, in mob fights a DW warrior is far more effective.  Period.  End of argument.

What's to stop a DW rogue from picking up axes and matching the DW warrior for AOE damage?

[arrrasdgaehjskmszkm]

 i dont think this discussion is a motive to not be civil.. hey, its a game

[/quote]
And backstabbing occurs only when flanking.
[/quote]
  With proper skills you can backstab stunned enemies and you allways backstab while sneaking.
 

 

[Koralt]

Altharas wrote...

And backstabbing occurs only when flanking.

You can still backstab with Coup De Grace, and there are other ways to generate critical hits, such as Pinpoint Strike or attacking while stealthed.

Modifié par Koralt, 11 décembre 2009 - 08:48 .

[Nokturnal Lex]

nuculerman wrote...

 It's really quite clear people can't be rational about this debate.  People arguing for DW rogues seem to not know how a DW warrior is played well and people arguing for DW warrior seems to not know how a DW rogue is played well.

Again, a DW warrior with axes out AoE DPS's a DW rogue in every way possible.  Thus, in mob fights a DW warrior is far more effective.  Period.  End of argument.  Meanwhile, a cunning build DW rogue out DPS's a DW warrior on single targets by quite a decent amount.  So on bosses a DW rogue with a lot of cunning is more effective.  Period.  End of argument.

Since the majority of this game is white mobs, people playing DW warrior will breeze through fights faster than a DW rogue every single time.  This gives the illusion that DW warrior is more powerful.

Since many power gamers judge their "effectiveness" by how well they can take down bosses, many people will swear DW rogue is far better than DW warrior.

At the end of the day, DW warrior is going to make the game go by quicker on every difficulty because, once again, for every boss battle there are 30 battles when your party is swarmed by 5-10 white enemies.  A DW warrior can end those fights before they even start.

At the end of the day, a DW rogue is going to have better "numbers" in every way possible.  His attack will be higher, his defense will likely be higher and his "most damage done to a single opponent" is obviously going to be higher.  

All that matters is play style.  If you want to shorten your game, play a DW warrior.  If you like seeing big numbers pop up over enemies heads, play a DW rogue.  At the end of the day either build will get you through nightmare with relative ease because both builds are pretty broken.

Any questions?

I don't really get how people don't understand that there is a single target DW warrior build that is better damage-wise to a rogue single target build due to berserk + perfect striking 2 awesome melee abilities that rogues don't have.

It's as simple as this.

Max out your dagger damage.
Use berserk for +8 dmg every hit.
Enchant the hell out of your daggers.
Use Momentum and Perfect Striking.

The idiot who said "Ohh +100 isn't anything"... you realize that's added to your normal attack right? Coming out to 250-300 attack rating end game more or less meaning any DW warrior could easily have way higher attack rating then any rogue no matter how hard you try to pimp your rogue.

And the person who pointed out what I already pointed. Yea DW warriors do get knocked down a lot, that's why they lack utility, but DW rogues suffer this as well. DW warriors = pure dmg, but easily knocked out of a fight. DW rogues on the other hand don't do as much dmg, but add alot more to the party then just damage.

And there's 2 builds for DW warriors, there's an AoE build, and there's a single target build.

Dual Daggers = Single Target, Dual Axes = AoE. So simple. If you're looking to slaugher tons of pointless white mobs then go with aoe build. If you're looking to own bosses insanely fast go with single target.

Every build has it's ups and downs but if you're looking for purely insane amounts of dmg on 1 target, as long as you're not immobilized somehow. DW Warrior will always win on the dps meters.

As far as tanking, rogues and warriors alike can easily tank well. That's just a stupid debate. They both can either have really high STR so they can wear good armor or they both can have really high dex so they have high defense. Duelest only adds +10 to defense meaning rogues don't really have any advantage due to their specializations (there's acouple shields that add more defense), but obviously rogues don't have taunt or threaten meaning if a mob sees a target it wants to kill more then your rogue, guess what? You better start killing it if you want aggro on it. I don't even know why I'm arguing about this, I built my DW warrior to do pure single target dmg not tank, although he took dmg very well and dodged a ton allowing him to not stress the healer out.

As far as the guys argument that perfect striking's duration isn't long enough... I killed the broodmother before perfect striking wore off and I used it as soon as I started hitting her. (Makes the game kinda boring actually, most bosses die so fast it's lol) It's duration is 15 seconds with a 15 second cooldown, so for 15 seconds you have +100 more attack rating then a rogue. Well +90 if the rogue is duelest. (Warriors and rogues can get almost the same attack ratings when geared/leveled correctly.. wow what a thought, but rogue lacks +100 attack every 15 seconds for 15 seconds.)

I've played both a DW rogue and a DW warrior and I can easily say my warrior does more dmg if only due to berserk + perfect striking. Although my rogue can use Pinpoint Strike, it's cooldown is 2 minutes and 45 seconds and lasts 15 seconds. And even though I might be able to crit every hit for 15 seconds that doesn't mean I'll hit a high level boss everytime with those.

Modifié par Nokturnal Lex, 11 décembre 2009 - 09:15 .

[Looy]

I used the respec mod to get 4 DW warriors, they cut through swarms of critters in seconds but can't really do much versus a Dragon.

[Discobird]

Nokturnal Lex wrote:

I don't really get how people don't understand that there is a single target DW warrior build that is better damage-wise to a rogue single target build due to berserk + perfect striking 2 awesome melee abilities that rogues don't have.

It's as simple as this.

Max out your dagger damage.
Use berserk for +8 dmg every hit.
Enchant the hell out of your daggers.
Use Momentum and Perfect Striking.

The idiot who said "Ohh +100 isn't anything"... you realize that's added to your normal attack right? Coming out to 250-300 attack rating end game more or less meaning any DW warrior could easily have way higher attack rating then any rogue no matter how hard you try to pimp your rogue.

Dagger/dagger dex rogues already hit 90-100% of the time against most mobs, and Tainted Blade's damage bonus = Berserk's at low cunning. So your precise striking warrior will have, say an 11% higher hit rate than a comparable dex rogue. But he only attacks 87% as fast because of Precise Striking's speed penalty (assuming Momentum on both characters). So Precise Striking doesn't even break even in terms of DPS. Now factor in the fact that the rogue gets about +40% damage on his backstabs...

It's even worse when you compare the warrior to a cunning rogue, who gets a fat +18 damage from Tainted Blade, does 70% more damage on backstabs, and still hits about 80-85% of the time with reasonable help from the party (Heroic Offense).

Granted Precise Striking is really nice to have when you're fighting bosses. Cunning rogues have a hard time hitting bosses, dex rogues significantly less so. The key thing is to realize that attack rating only helps to a point. The rogues can use buffs and debuffs to improve their hit rate, while those same buffs will have no value to a precise striking warrior.

Modifié par Discobird, 11 décembre 2009 - 09:20 .

[Nokturnal Lex]

[quote]arrrasdgaehjskmszkm wrote...

 i dont think this discussion is a motive to not be civil.. hey, its a game

[/quote]
And backstabbing occurs only when flanking.
[/quote]
  With proper skills you can backstab stunned enemies and you allways backstab while sneaking.
 

 



[/quote]

Sorry for my previous post I'm just trying to get my point across to the thick headed.

And yes backstabbing happens when you're flanking, or the mob is paralyzed or stunned with coup de grace. Problem is there are a lot fo bosses who will resist every paralyze attempt and be immune to stuns on nightmare.

As far as Pinpoint Strike, it only lasts about 15 seconds and has a 3 minute cooldown (so 2 minutes and 45 seconds downtime) while perfect striking for +100 attack lasts 15 seconds with 15 second cooldown afterwards. Berserk for +8 dmg every hit can be on 24/7 long as your patient after battles are over.

[Nokturnal Lex]

Discobird wrote...

Nokturnal Lex wrote:

I don't really get how people don't understand that there is a single target DW warrior build that is better damage-wise to a rogue single target build due to berserk + perfect striking 2 awesome melee abilities that rogues don't have.

It's as simple as this.

Max out your dagger damage.
Use berserk for +8 dmg every hit.
Enchant the hell out of your daggers.
Use Momentum and Perfect Striking.

The idiot who said "Ohh +100 isn't anything"... you realize that's added to your normal attack right? Coming out to 250-300 attack rating end game more or less meaning any DW warrior could easily have way higher attack rating then any rogue no matter how hard you try to pimp your rogue.

Dagger/dagger dex rogues already hit 90-100% of the time against most mobs, and Tainted Blade's damage bonus = Berserk's at low cunning. So your precise striking warrior will have, say an 11% higher hit rate than a comparable dex rogue. But he only attacks 87% as fast because of Precise Striking's speed penalty (assuming Momentum on both characters). So Precise Striking doesn't even break even in terms of DPS. Now factor in the fact that the rogue gets about +40% damage on his backstabs...

It's even worse when you compare the warrior to a cunning rogue, who gets a fat +18 damage from Tainted Blade, does 70% more damage on backstabs, and still hits about 80-85% of the time with reasonable help from the party (Heroic Offense).

Granted Precise Striking is really nice to have when you're fighting bosses. Cunning rogues have a hard time hitting bosses, dex rogues significantly less so. The key thing is to realize that attack rating only helps to a point. The rogues can use buffs and debuffs to improve their hit rate, while those same buffs will have no value to a precise striking warrior.

I think the main problem of this thread stems from what difficulty we're all playing at lol.

And i didn't say precise, I said perfect... lemme link it for ya
http://dragonage.wik...Warrior_Talents

Modifié par Nokturnal Lex, 11 décembre 2009 - 09:27 .