86 réponses à ce sujet

[Discobird]

Those figures are for Nightmare

[Nokturnal Lex]

Discobird wrote...

Those figures are for Nightmare

Good, well you kept saying precise, i never used precise, slowing down my attack speed wasn't in my plan.

I said Perfect Striking.

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Warrior_Talents

[Discobird]

My bad, I misread what you wrote. Still doesn't change the outcome though.

[Nokturnal Lex]

Discobird wrote...

My bad, I misread what you wrote. Still doesn't change the outcome though.

Oh you're using Tainted Blade from the Warden's Keep DLC, I haven't even downloaded that content yet.

Seeing as I haven't even tried using Blood Thirst (and I'm betting it won't stack well with momentum... just a guess) I can't really try to argue with you against blood taint until I download it and do comparisons.

But a DLC that changes class mechanics might as well be a mod that adds +1000 dmg to a certain classes every attack heh, making this argument kinda pointless.

But I'll just shut up for now since I have no plan on spending money on a mod that should be free. Seeing as I've played aton of free mods with a lot more content.

Modifié par Nokturnal Lex, 11 décembre 2009 - 09:41 .

[grymstone]

This post is kind of silly in a way dual wield warrior is just there to deal damage the rogue disarms traps and chests and a pc constructed rogue is vastly superior to both the npc rogues you can get.



I am not saying dual wield warriors are gimp or anything and they make a fine pc BUT of all the npc party members I think the rogue ones are far and away the worst optimized.



I look at the big picture when I make a character not just his build but what npc's I will cultivate to compliment him and how I can min/max my whole party once i have selected how I want to play out that play through.



One really strong thing in favor of the dual wield warrior that was brought up in discobirds wonderful thread is when a warrior has precision striking up he can stack haste and momentum.

[Nokturnal Lex]

grymstone wrote...

This post is kind of silly in a way dual wield warrior is just there to deal damage the rogue disarms traps and chests and a pc constructed rogue is vastly superior to both the npc rogues you can get.

I am not saying dual wield warriors are gimp or anything and they make a fine pc BUT of all the npc party members I think the rogue ones are far and away the worst optimized.

I look at the big picture when I make a character not just his build but what npc's I will cultivate to compliment him and how I can min/max my whole party once i have selected how I want to play out that play through.

One really strong thing in favor of the dual wield warrior that was brought up in discobirds wonderful thread is when a warrior has precision striking up he can stack haste and momentum.

I totally agree with you on that. The option of resetting skills of characters when they first join your party would've been greatly appreciated.

And personally I find both rogues rather annoying, specially leliana. Got on my nerves the entire game her only redeeming feature was the song she sang about the elves. Otherwise she just seemed like such a goody-two-shoe religious zealot that her character lacked any depth.

Modifié par Nokturnal Lex, 11 décembre 2009 - 10:13 .

[Fleapants]

Blood Thirst from Soldier's Peak adds 10% crit and some attack speed, which may or may not stack with Momentum.
I'll try to do some tests to figure it out.

Modifié par Fleapants, 11 décembre 2009 - 10:12 .

[termokanden]

Well, I mostly made the post because I was surprised it worked much better than my mage. I was certainly not expecting that. As I've also written, I have yet to try a rogue and I intend to do so.

In response to your claim, grymstone, that the NPC rogues are horribly optimized. Zevran certainly is, and you can spend all your leveling trying to fix it. I think of Leliana as the ultimate support character. I build her to be ranged and pick up Scattershot quickly, as it quite frankly is awesome CC. I also give her the ranger specialization and otherwise just let her keep up Song of Valor and shoot things without getting in harm's way.

So I think Leliana actually works quite well. She's just not primary DPS. But that's fine really.

Modifié par termokanden, 11 décembre 2009 - 10:13 .

[Nokturnal Lex]

termokanden wrote...

Well, I mostly made the post because I was surprised it worked much better than my mage. I was certainly not expecting that. As I've also written, I have yet to try a rogue and I intend to do so.

In response to your claim, grymstone, that the NPC rogues are horribly optimized. Zevran certainly is, and you can spend all your leveling trying to fix it. I think of Leliana as the ultimate support character. I build her to be ranged and pick up Scattershot quickly, as it quite frankly is awesome CC. I also give her the ranger specialization and otherwise just let her keep up Song of Valor and shoot things without getting in harm's way.

So I think Leliana actually works quite well. She's just not primary DPS. But that's fine really.

Yea she can fill in for support the best, but playing as an evil char with her in the party can be really annoying. (Specially when she flips out that you poured dragon blood into an urn)

Another huge problem with Zevran being a DW rogue is you have to control him if you want him to get behind targets instead of your main character seeing as there's no tactic that tells rogues "Get behind the target you idiot"

[Nokturnal Lex]

Fleapants wrote...

Blood Thirst from Soldier's Peak adds 10% crit and some attack speed, which may or may not stack with Momentum.
I'll try to do some tests to figure it out.

What's the deal with haste btw? Description says it increases attack speed with a penalty to attack, you'd think that'd be awesome... but it only makes you attack slower with momentum on. Making me only turn it on to get from point A to point B.

[Discobird]

JJM152 wrote...
Most importantly, the problem with the "paper" comparisons is that they rely upon contrived scenarios that don't exist in the game, such as: Not accounting for lost DPS time when moving in for a flank, or having to stun the enemy. Not counting for the loss (less optimal) dps done when you are not in a backstab position (further compounded by not accounting for average armor mitigation on the relatively weak dagger damage, which makes this dps "loss" even more substantial).

Just wanted to comment on the bolded part because the other points have been answered and this sounds like a misreading of the DPS thread (unless there are some other paper comparisons of DW rogues I'm unaware of...). Those calcs actually overestimate the effect of armor mitigation because they assume the enemy has 100% armor all the time, when in fact armor is randomized to between 70-100% on every hit. So the DPS thread underestimates dagger DPS versus heavily armored targets. (It also underestimates axe and longword DPS against heavily armored targets, but the error is larger w.r.t. daggers.)

Modifié par Discobird, 11 décembre 2009 - 10:25 .

[Fleapants]

Nokturnal Lex wrote...

Fleapants wrote...

Blood Thirst from Soldier's Peak adds 10% crit and some attack speed, which may or may not stack with Momentum.
I'll try to do some tests to figure it out.

What's the deal with haste btw? Description says it increases attack speed with a penalty to attack, you'd think that'd be awesome... but it only makes you attack slower with momentum on. Making me only turn it on to get from point A to point B.

As I understand it, the attack speed increase from Momentum is larger than the one from Haste, but Haste overrules Momentum - thus making you swing slower.

[Nokturnal Lex]

Fleapants wrote...

Nokturnal Lex wrote...

Fleapants wrote...

Blood Thirst from Soldier's Peak adds 10% crit and some attack speed, which may or may not stack with Momentum.
I'll try to do some tests to figure it out.

What's the deal with haste btw? Description says it increases attack speed with a penalty to attack, you'd think that'd be awesome... but it only makes you attack slower with momentum on. Making me only turn it on to get from point A to point B.

As I understand it, the attack speed increase from Momentum is larger than the one from Haste, but Haste overrules Momentum - thus making you swing slower.

Yea kinda sucks when abilites don't stack that's why I assumed Blood Thirst wouldn't stack. If so the Warden Keep DLC is just a huge nerf to DW warriors and a huge buff to DW rogues.

Modifié par Nokturnal Lex, 11 décembre 2009 - 10:34 .

[Fleapants]

Nokturnal Lex wrote...

Fleapants wrote...

Nokturnal Lex wrote...

Fleapants wrote...

Blood Thirst from Soldier's Peak adds 10% crit and some attack speed, which may or may not stack with Momentum.
I'll try to do some tests to figure it out.

What's the deal with haste btw? Description says it increases attack speed with a penalty to attack, you'd think that'd be awesome... but it only makes you attack slower with momentum on. Making me only turn it on to get from point A to point B.

As I understand it, the attack speed increase from Momentum is larger than the one from Haste, but Haste overrules Momentum - thus making you swing slower.

Yea kinda sucks when abilites don't stack that's why I assumed Blood Thirst wouldn't stack. If so the Warden Keep DLC is just a huge nerf to DW warriors and a huge buff to DW rogues.

I found a handy ogre in an autosave, and Blood Thirst definately stacks with Momentum. My warrior looked to be near dagger speed with both enabled. Yum!

[OneBadAssMother]

I rather suck at Dragon Age... every class I start playing sux, I always have to let my wife play through first so I know exactly how to use them.



I got horrified at my DPS as a DW warrior during ostagar compared to a DW rogue so I never bothered to play it to the end to see the potential. So far I only learnt how to use 2h-warrior and DW rogue. If only I can get her to play a DW warrior...



So far, I simply don't see how a DW warrior does more damage then a DW rogue. 80-100 damage per hit with momentum is the standard for a DW-user in my opinion. Can a DW warrior really match that? Do you guys use dual-striking or something I simply have not figured out?

[grymstone]

I am sorry I was not more specific when I said none of the npc rogues were optimized I was referring to dps lel is certainly a fine support npc and I have used her the exact way you described but she does not become a dual wield powerhouse for quite a while on the console and I was never able to get her into combat stealth AND coup de grace. In addition her cunning and zevrans cunning were both pretty low.



As a pc rogues have quite a few advantages over the other 2 classes.

1. cunning is prereq for coercion and rogues are the only class that can really afford to get this and fill out another couple of skill trees. The other class have to spend 3-4 points in cunning and put all 4 skill points to max coercion a cunning rogue can put 3 in it and achieve the same results.

2. rogues are a bit wealthier at the start between the origin and ostagar there are a ton of locked chests.

3. cunning rogues pc are probably the only melee class that can actually afford to "dabble" in another weapon skill simply because if you plan on getting haste you can ignore the momentum line altogether and invest 4 points in getting arrow of slaying for mage killing or even scattershot to help with cc. I have not planned a pc like this all out but you could probably afford to get both if you were skimpy on your spec skills.



These are just some more thoughts to add to the discussion sorry for rambling.

[congokurtz]

grymstone wrote...

I am sorry I was not more specific when I said none of the npc rogues were optimized I was referring to dps lel is certainly a fine support npc and I have used her the exact way you described but she does not become a dual wield powerhouse for quite a while on the console and I was never able to get her into combat stealth AND coup de grace. In addition her cunning and zevrans cunning were both pretty low.

As a pc rogues have quite a few advantages over the other 2 classes.
1. cunning is prereq for coercion and rogues are the only class that can really afford to get this and fill out another couple of skill trees. The other class have to spend 3-4 points in cunning and put all 4 skill points to max coercion a cunning rogue can put 3 in it and achieve the same results.
2. rogues are a bit wealthier at the start between the origin and ostagar there are a ton of locked chests.
3. cunning rogues pc are probably the only melee class that can actually afford to "dabble" in another weapon skill simply because if you plan on getting haste you can ignore the momentum line altogether and invest 4 points in getting arrow of slaying for mage killing or even scattershot to help with cc. I have not planned a pc like this all out but you could probably afford to get both if you were skimpy on your spec skills.

These are just some more thoughts to add to the discussion sorry for rambling.

1) My DW warrior has never failed a persuasion check.  My Cunning is 16 (post-fade stat bumbs, obviously).  This is a non issue.

2)Does all that loot even equal two gold?  Again a non issue.

3)My understanding is that momentum is better than haste, but regardless a DW warrior could also do what you are suggesting since they have access to the same weapon skills.  If you're that concerned with mages you can take the templar specialization and throw down holy smites which damages/stuns mages and aoe's nearby enemies. 

Modifié par congokurtz, 11 décembre 2009 - 11:27 .

[grymstone]

congo I think your misunderstanding me rogues actually get more skill points one every two levels instead of one every three levels like war/mag not to mention they only need to invest three as opposed to four in coercion. So rogues as a pc can afford to fill out more skills overall.



The extra loot I will agree is simply a nice perk and not game breaking by any stretch.



A warrior would never want to ignore the momentum line their aoe's hit harder and with precision striking up they can stack momentum and haste. As a rogue's momentum will never stack with haste so you do not even need to invest skills in this line because dagger aoe is kind of weak. Momentum is a 30% increase in attack speed haste is a 25% instead but haste is capped at 50% you actually attack slower when going over the cap because of a bug. but precision striking imposes a penalty to your attack speed -5% or -10% this brings you below the cap and allows you to run haste and momentum at the same time.



You are also kind of taking my entire post out of context I was talking about using a rogue as your pc as opposed to using a warrior as a pc. To get the most out of the game you need to bring a rogue you do not need to ever bring a warrior in this game for anything it is a simple fact of the three classes in this game from a party construction perspective warriors are far and away the most expendable and least necessary. You get offered many more viable tanks/warrior npc's than you do any other class in this game. Warriors are powerful and fun to play no doubt but you are not doing you part much of a favopr by taking one as a pc. As a rogue you have access to a much better optimized party.

[congokurtz]

Fair enough Grym. I'm not sure how many skills you really need as a DW warrior. You need to fill out the combat expertise, persuasion, and maybe one point in poisons if you want to use some. Your NPC's come equipped with the other skills, Zev for poisons, Whynn/Morrigan for potions, Liliana for pickpocketing, and I've never bothered with traps.



Feel free to play the game any way you choose. I personally don't feel that the games difficulty even on PC/nightmare merits the arguing that is taking place in this thread (not directed at anyone in-particular, just the general tone of the thread). I have done a dagger/dagger cun rogue and a DW warrior both on Nightmare/PC and ran into maybe 2 fights that were challenging in the 50-60 or so hours it takes to do a full play through. My first play through was a 2H warrior on hard on the Xbox and that felt slightly more challenging. The last revenant I fought with my DW warrior died to a flurry and punisher before I could even move Zev into place behind him. I recall the High Dragon and Flemeth feeling like epic battles on my 2H warrior, but with both the rogue and DW war it was over in no time and I did maybe one heal and might have had Zev pop a lesser healing potion after a knockback. I had read several posts about how Gaxkang was one of the tougher fights on the PC/nightmare, but both my rogue and DW warrior blasted through him with only cleansing aura healing.



I almost wish I was more interested in the role play elements since the min/maxing and gear optimizing with a rogue or DW warrior makes even the highest difficulty seem really easy. Keep in mind this isn't an epeen post, I don't think I'm particularly good at this game, I just think it's possible for your party to completely out class/out scale any of the enemies in the game.



The larger point here is that either class played properly will allow you to blast through the game on nightmare difficulty. People should play whatever seems more fun/interesting to them since any advantage one may have over the other is very minor and will likely make little difference since the game isn't particularly difficult.

[Nokturnal Lex]

congokurtz wrote...

Fair enough Grym. I'm not sure how many skills you really need as a DW warrior. You need to fill out the combat expertise, persuasion, and maybe one point in poisons if you want to use some. Your NPC's come equipped with the other skills, Zev for poisons, Whynn/Morrigan for potions, Liliana for pickpocketing, and I've never bothered with traps.

Feel free to play the game any way you choose. I personally don't feel that the games difficulty even on PC/nightmare merits the arguing that is taking place in this thread (not directed at anyone in-particular, just the general tone of the thread). I have done a dagger/dagger cun rogue and a DW warrior both on Nightmare/PC and ran into maybe 2 fights that were challenging in the 50-60 or so hours it takes to do a full play through. My first play through was a 2H warrior on hard on the Xbox and that felt slightly more challenging. The last revenant I fought with my DW warrior died to a flurry and punisher before I could even move Zev into place behind him. I recall the High Dragon and Flemeth feeling like epic battles on my 2H warrior, but with both the rogue and DW war it was over in no time and I did maybe one heal and might have had Zev pop a lesser healing potion after a knockback. I had read several posts about how Gaxkang was one of the tougher fights on the PC/nightmare, but both my rogue and DW warrior blasted through him with only cleansing aura healing.

I almost wish I was more interested in the role play elements since the min/maxing and gear optimizing with a rogue or DW warrior makes even the highest difficulty seem really easy. Keep in mind this isn't an epeen post, I don't think I'm particularly good at this game, I just think it's possible for your party to completely out class/out scale any of the enemies in the game.

The larger point here is that either class played properly will allow you to blast through the game on nightmare difficulty. People should play whatever seems more fun/interesting to them since any advantage one may have over the other is very minor and will likely make little difference since the game isn't particularly difficult.

True, nightmare difficulty in a joke really wish they made the game more challenging. Would it have been so hard to scale enemies higher for hard and nightmare? Hell for a real challenge Hard Mode could've turned all yellow enemies red and all white enemies yellow, then everything could be a boss in nightmare mode lol that'd be fun.

[Khevar]

Nokturnal Lex wrote...

True, nightmare difficulty in a joke really wish they made the game more challenging. Would it have been so hard to scale enemies higher for hard and nightmare? Hell for a real challenge Hard Mode could've turned all yellow enemies red and all white enemies yellow, then everything could be a boss in nightmare mode lol that'd be fun.

Try the nightmare plus mod, you'll prolly enjoy it.
http://social.bioware.com/project/667/

[metatrans]

nuculerman wrote...



Again, a DW warrior with axes out AoE DPS's a DW rogue in every way possible.  Thus, in mob fights a DW warrior is far more effective.  Period.  End of argument.  Meanwhile, a cunning build DW rogue out DPS's a DW warrior on single targets by quite a decent amount.  So on bosses a DW rogue with a lot of cunning is more effective.  Period.  End of argument.

this is correct. discussion should be over. 

[grymstone]

I agree about the challenge level of the game but what I find amusing is the amount of posts complaining the game is far away to difficult even on normal and then you have folks like us who say even on the hardest setting the game is not challenging enough to merit fully optimizing your party. I cannot help it years of mmo's have ingrained a deep sense of optimization into everything I play.

I look back on icewind dale heart of winter with a lot of nostalgia playing that game on its hardest setting early on without an optimized party was murder. I really enjoyed those many hours spent constructing my party. Trying to make the smallest most effective party I could. Pouring over forums just like these talking strategy. I wish dragon age could approach something similar to that level of challenge. Although it came close early on for me with the steep learning curve with mages and crowd control I honestly was not expecting that in this genre but once the mmo strategies kicked in and party optimization night mare seems like casual to me now.

[Love-Buzz]

metatrans wrote...

nuculerman wrote...
Again, a DW warrior with axes out AoE DPS's a DW rogue in every way possible.  Thus, in mob fights a DW warrior is far more effective.  Period.  End of argument.  Meanwhile, a cunning build DW rogue out DPS's a DW warrior on single targets by quite a decent amount.  So on bosses a DW rogue with a lot of cunning is more effective.  Period.  End of argument.

this is correct. discussion should be over. 

Basically.  I don't know if people quite realize how good a high-cunning Rogue's AoE can be with Tainted Blade active.  However, it is completely true that will never be better than a warrior's.

[nuculerman]

Discobird wrote...

nuculerman wrote...

Again, a DW warrior with axes out AoE DPS's a DW rogue in every way possible.  Thus, in mob fights a DW warrior is far more effective.  Period.  End of argument.

What's to stop a DW rogue from picking up axes and matching the DW warrior for AOE damage?

Because berserk+perfect striking+precise striking+rally+song>duelist+rally+song

In addition, momentum and haste= haste, while momentum+haste+precise striking= fastest attack speed allowed in game.

Modifié par nuculerman, 12 décembre 2009 - 08:12 .