86 réponses à ce sujet

[Love-Buzz]

nuculerman wrote...

Discobird wrote...

nuculerman wrote...

Again, a DW warrior with axes out AoE DPS's a DW rogue in every way possible.  Thus, in mob fights a DW warrior is far more effective.  Period.  End of argument.

What's to stop a DW rogue from picking up axes and matching the DW warrior for AOE damage?

Because berserk+perfect striking+precise striking+rally+song>duelist+rally+song

In addition, momentum and haste= haste, while momentum+haste+precise striking= fastest attack speed allowed in game.

Again, Tainted Blade is horribly underestimated.  Berserk is what? 9 dmg?  Tainted is 15 on a decent cunning rogue and rogues have considerably higher armor penetration than warriors on top of that.  And unlike dmg, extra attack does nothing when duelist + song alone is enough to hit 95% with a proper rogue build.  Warriors barely win out in the AoE department and lose pathetically vs single targets.

DW warriors beat rogues in 2 departments only: the ability to kill white mobs (only marginally betterand only b/c of AoE - rogue autoattacks with daggers are on par with warrior autoattacks after speed, crit%, and armor pene, nevermind backstab bonuses) and the ability to tank raw damage (as rogues have lower health/armor and don't make good use of resist gear with low hp).  I've played both and min/maxed both and thought my DW warrior was the ****** until I made my rogue, and if you think otherwise, then u fail at either building or playing your rogue.

Modifié par Love-Buzz, 12 décembre 2009 - 08:48 .

[Discobird]

nuculerman wrote...
Because berserk+perfect striking+precise striking+rally+song>duelist+rally+song

Tainted Blood's damage bonus >= Berserk's even at low levels of cunning. And an axe/axe str rogue using Duelist + Rally + Song is already hitting at or near 100% versus the sort of mobs you'd use Whirlwind on. The warrior +attack buffs add very little, if anything. It's pretty much a wash.

In addition, momentum and haste= haste, while momentum+haste+precise striking= fastest attack speed allowed in game.

Actually Momentum + Haste = no net speed boost . But that doesn't matter for AOE damage because DW Sweep and Whirlwind execute in the same amount of time regardless what kind of speed buffs you have.

Even if the warrior's Whirlwind animation was, say, half as long as the rogue's (which it isn't), that would have no real impact on AOE damage because the limiting factor there is cooldowns, not execution time.

Modifié par Discobird, 12 décembre 2009 - 09:39 .

[Matthew Young CT]

Isn't Momentum+Haste technically +5% attack speed? That was my impression, it seems to roll over.



Disco: is your reading of that code also that > 50% attack speed mod should simply be set to 50%? IE that this is a bug?

[Malcroix]

gunjinkane wrote...

I'm going in one my third game now. I had a warrior, mage, and now a rouge. I like them all in their own ways and I'm finding that if you invest in the rouge a few levels you end up with plenty of tricks in the bag.

*ROGUE*
*ROGUE*
*ROGUE*
*ROGUE*
*ROGUE*
*ROGUE*
*ROGUE*
OMMMMM

[Malcroix]

Nokturnal Lex wrote...

I totally agree with you on that. The option of resetting skills of characters when they first join your party would've been greatly appreciated.

It's very easy to do using the Toolset.

[themaxzero]

Some mods as well.

[Malcroix]

Love-Buzz wrote...

Also, daggers may have low dmg-per-stat gain, BUT with tainted blade + lethality, cunning is adding to dmg two ways, and that's not even mentioning Exploit Weakness when u backstab, which makes it THREE ways.  And no, you don't lose out on attack, as you can easily get 120+ attack from dex/talents, 90+% hit rate and still having cunning ~70 (ya, max dex = max fail, maybe that's why you think rogues suck).

I built Zevran as an assassin/duelist with maximised Dexterity.

STR at 22 for drakeskin armor. Cunning at 22 for Lockpicking IV. That way, he could wear the best light armor and could pick all locks (for the very few hard ones which give 60xp I just equipped him with Dead Thaig Shanker which increases Cunning by +5, and voila).

Everything else went into Dex. And I think it turned out quite well, since Dex adds Attack, Damage (0.5*0.85 for daggers), AND DEFENSE. Had almost 140 defense at endgame, naked. Never bothered with Stealth, either - reconnaisance is better done with Survival, and backstabbing can easily be set up otherwise.

Maybe I'll try making a Cunning-oriented rogue in the Toolset to see just how much damage output will increase. But for all other uses (lockpick, stealth, persuade) Cunning is generally useless beyond 22, IMO.

[AXidenT Gamer]

metatrans wrote...

nuculerman wrote...



Again, a DW warrior with axes out AoE DPS's a DW rogue in every way possible.  Thus, in mob fights a DW warrior is far more effective.  Period.  End of argument.  Meanwhile, a cunning build DW rogue out DPS's a DW warrior on single targets by quite a decent amount.  So on bosses a DW rogue with a lot of cunning is more effective.  Period.  End of argument.

this is correct. discussion should be over. 

What makes axes good?

[Love-Buzz]

Malcroix wrote...
I built Zevran as an assassin/duelist with maximised Dexterity.

STR at 22 for drakeskin armor. Cunning at 22 for Lockpicking IV. That way, he could wear the best light armor and could pick all locks (for the very few hard ones which give 60xp I just equipped him with Dead Thaig Shanker which increases Cunning by +5, and voila).

Everything else went into Dex. And I think it turned out quite well, since Dex adds Attack, Damage (0.5*0.85 for daggers), AND DEFENSE. Had almost 140 defense at endgame, naked. Never bothered with Stealth, either - reconnaisance is better done with Survival, and backstabbing can easily be set up otherwise.

Maybe I'll try making a Cunning-oriented rogue in the Toolset to see just how much damage output will increase. But for all other uses (lockpick, stealth, persuade) Cunning is generally useless beyond 22, IMO.

Discobird has a whole thread about rogue DPS calcs and 2dagger/cunning is by the far the most damaging for PC Rogues.  NPC rogues don't do nearly as well b/c they cant use their cunning for Tainted Blade, which weakens them drastically, so for Zev, I can see a dex build being very successful.  My defense on my heavy-cunning rogue was close to 130 by endgame and only stealthed to reset aggro.  Having 70 cunning also means you need zero ranks of lockpicking to open any chest in the game, which is important cuz every one of my talent pts was in an important skill until like lvl 20.

Modifié par Love-Buzz, 12 décembre 2009 - 05:48 .

[Malcroix]

Love-Buzz wrote...

Having 70 cunning also means you need zero ranks of lockpicking to open any chest in the game, which is important cuz every one of my talent pts was in an important skill until like lvl 20.

Hmm, is there any data on how much cunning is needed to open various levels of chests?

Because saving up on the Lockpicking talent chain would indeed be nice! Rogues really are starved for talent points.

Do you figure Stealth to be important for your PC rogue? Havent played one myself, choosing now whether to start second playthrough with a rogue or a warrior (done first on mage, ofc.). Thing is, I've been using Zevran as a duelist/assassin for the entire playthrough, so I'm a bit bored with the dual dagger stuff. OTOH, warrior just doesn't seem as powerful or useful.

Modifié par Malcroix, 12 décembre 2009 - 05:53 .

[Malcroix]

AXidenT Gamer wrote...

What makes axes good?

They use 110% of the STR modifier for damage, as compared to 100% with swords. However, axes have a lower base damage and a lower critical chance. AP is identical. For a pure STR build, axes (as well as battleaxes and mauls) might offer more bang than swords/greatswords; but for a dual wielder who splits points between STR and DEX (or in case of Rogue, STR, DEX and Cunning) the difference could very well be negligible, or the swords or daggers might be preferable - much will depend on available gear.

Modifié par Malcroix, 12 décembre 2009 - 06:16 .

[AXidenT Gamer]

Malcroix wrote...

AXidenT Gamer wrote...

What makes axes good?

They use 110% of the STR modifier for damage, as compared to 100% with swords. However, axes have a lower base damage and a lower critical chance. AP is identical. For a pure STR build, axes (as well as battleaxes and mauls) might offer more bang than swords/greatswords; but for a dual wielder who splits points between STR and DEX (or in case of Rogue, STR, DEX and Cunning) the difference could very well be negligible, or the swords or daggers might be preferable - much will depend on available gear.

Well for my DW Warrior, I've only put Dex to 36 and the rest has gone into Strength, so I might make that my second set...