108 réponses à ce sujet

[kevinwastaken]

Normally a bastard trying to take over a throne would result in civil war as nobility tend to frown on such abominations as children born out of wedlock. But when in Ferelden...

As for Alistair, I'm sure he will be getting his jollies on the side regardless. It's not like Anora would have sex with him anyway- she doesn't strike me as the amorous type at all. Also... she's Loghain's daughter- YUCK! Have you seen that guy? Jesus...

Modifié par kevinwastaken, 11 décembre 2009 - 06:50 .

[FlintlockJazz]

Look, simple solution to the Al problem when he's married to Anora: just don't have him consummate the relationship. Sure, he's expected to drop a heir or two, but in that case just have Anora stick a pillow up her blouse while you retreat to the countryside manor house for 'secluded meditation' while you squeeze one out for the throne. Al's marriage to Anora is just business after all, no actual relationship there, and everyone suspects Anora of being barren anyway, look how long she was married to Cailan without popping an heir out, and without Loghain around (as you used him as a big pokey stick to kil the ArchDemon with) she won't have anyone to back her up anyway.

[Leg_lamp]

Recidiva wrote...

If you let him break up with you, he spends the rest of the game miserable and ends up apologizing on the rooftop for making such a stupid mistake.  I'd rather he wasn't guilty or that someone let him make a very big mistake he'll regret later.  Like, say, if you're dead.

I personally would feel way more guilty if someone sacrificed their life for me, than if I broke their heart and lost them to my own stupidity.  But Alistair won't be on the rooftop with you at all if you spare and redeem Loghain.  Alistair won't feel guilty, in fact he'll be pissed.  Don't worry, he'll cool off some by the end of the game.

Umr, I was wondering because I haven't tried yet, but can you make unhardened Alistair kill Loghain, take the crown, lock up Anora, dump you, and then still have him sleep with Morrigan?  If so, does he still apologize at the gate, and what kind of ending do you get in this scenario if you both live? Metagamers like me want to know! 

Recidiva wrote...
If love is being honored here, then you don't give up on it and you don't let the person you love think that they should ever give up on it either. 

I love how romantic and idealistic you are. (I'm being totally honest and non-patronizing, I swear.  I'm also not macking on you by saying this either, so don't get any ideas). 

Recidiva wrote...
Yes, if your main goal is to keep him healthy and alive, accept Loghain and have him marry Anora.  But that's not...love.  Not romantic love, anyway.  That's sacrificing love and making it seem like it never happened.  In that case, don't romance Alistair at all.  Watch over him like a parent or a friend and not as a mate. 

If you don't romance Alistair at all, then you can't be considered "lovelorn".  That being said, and call me a softy, but I do think that it's better to have loved and lost Alistair, than to have never loved Alistair at all.  True, you may be sacrificing your life together with your romantic love,  but you still won't lose how you feel.  The act of letting him go is a transformational act of sublime love, which  9 out of 10 greek scholars agree is more noble.

Plus, all romance is not lost totally.  Here are some consolation prizes of varying degrees of swoony, that I can think of off-hand:
1. Finding someone else who is dreamier and better (and no settling for anyone.  That means you, Zevran)
2. Having the "one-who-got-away" status, and being thought about fondly by someone for the rest of your life no matter what you do
3. Re-uniting in 30 years for your Calling. 


To Kevinwastaken:  I bet Loghain was totally HOT in his younger days.

[Thyrza]

Leg_lamp wrote...

That being said, and call me a softy, but I do think that it's better to have loved and lost Alistair, than to have never loved Alistair at all.  True, you may be sacrificing your life together with your romantic love,  but you still won't lose how you feel.  The act of letting him go is a transformational act of sublime love, which  9 out of 10 greek scholars agree is more noble.

Love can be sublime, noble and selfless but love can also be temperamental, impetuous, irrational and yes, selfish.  Greek myth contains many examples of the wrath of women scorned, for example, Deianira who murdered Herakles and Medea who murdered Jason.

It's perfectly possible to be lovelorn and not care about Ferelden's fate.  Marrying off Alistair and Anora may be good for the kingdom and maybe even for Alistair but it's an inglorious ending for the PC, a character in an escapist medium.

Plus, all romance is not lost totally.  Here are some consolation prizes of varying degrees of swoony, that I can think of off-hand:
1. Finding someone else who is dreamier and better (and no settling for anyone.  That means you, Zevran)

If you rule out both Cullen and Zevran, who's left?   The other characters are so lightly fleshed-out that they are little more than ciphers.  Beside, Duncan is nearing his expiry date and I've read that Bann Teagan runs off with the barmaid.

[Recidiva]

Leg_lamp wrote...

I personally would feel way more guilty if someone sacrificed their life for me, than if I broke their heart and lost them to my own stupidity.  But Alistair won't be on the rooftop with you at all if you spare and redeem Loghain.  Alistair won't feel guilty, in fact he'll be pissed.  Don't worry, he'll cool off some by the end of the game.

Umr, I was wondering because I haven't tried yet, but can you make unhardened Alistair kill Loghain, take the crown, lock up Anora, dump you, and then still have him sleep with Morrigan?  If so, does he still apologize at the gate, and what kind of ending do you get in this scenario if you both live? Metagamers like me want to know! 

I love how romantic and idealistic you are. (I'm being totally honest and non-patronizing, I swear.  I'm also not macking on you by saying this either, so don't get any ideas). 

If you don't romance Alistair at all, then you can't be considered "lovelorn".  That being said, and call me a softy, but I do think that it's better to have loved and lost Alistair, than to have never loved Alistair at all.  True, you may be sacrificing your life together with your romantic love,  but you still won't lose how you feel.  The act of letting him go is a transformational act of sublime love, which  9 out of 10 greek scholars agree is more noble.

Plus, all romance is not lost totally.  Here are some consolation prizes of varying degrees of swoony, that I can think of off-hand:
1. Finding someone else who is dreamier and better (and no settling for anyone.  That means you, Zevran)
2. Having the "one-who-got-away" status, and being thought about fondly by someone for the rest of your life no matter what you do
3. Re-uniting in 30 years for your Calling. 

Well, Romeo and Juliet is wildly romantic and tragic for a reason.  I think you're trying to make "sense" a part of romance.  Romantic "me" is driven by one real purpose.  To preserve the romance itself.  To not compromise to serve that end.  That to me, in reality also means...being the best person you can be to deserve the right to be a channel for a love that strong.  Which requires "bigger than the both of us" thinking.  It's an honor, in that case, to be the one to step up and give it everything you've got, including your life.  Willingly and for that reason. 

Choosing to do it together is what I'd prefer...but the game really does not allow you that.  In my reality, the most romantic choice is one made as a team.  Theoretically in this case, with no way around it, dying together or coming up with some miracle that means neither dies.  Barring that, the most "human" romantic choice is when you realize that whatever choice you made as a team, you can't NOT try to be the most worthy.  And I think that's what they make Alistair do in the end.  There's zero way he's letting the woman he loves die and he's not negotiating.  And that's one of those acid test "tragic romance" hallmarks.  Unable to work together, one person or both people do a "Gift of the Magi" where they are serving the idea of love itself, and not each other.  And anything less than that is infatuation, not that sort of firey-grip-on-the-heart love that drives people to extremes of expression.

If you have pure reason and practical intent, you don't end up with a romantic story.  Because romance really does require vulnerability to the other person and the whole love thing itself.  Both having their own demands.  It's a good expression of the sort of subjective insanity people who are in love experience.

And this isn't a love that gets twisted into jealousy or insecurity, it's a true-to-the core willingness to put everything on the line in service to the firey grip on the heart, and do your best to be the one who gives the most and costs the one you love the least.  I was really happy when I finally earned Alistair calling me a "stubborn, stubborn woman."  I could just hear my husband's voice in my head saying "Oh, you have no idea, man, you've only known her for a month."  I think it's unethical to not follow your heart straight into the fire if necessary. 

[Recidiva]

zenrau79 wrote...

Oh indeed!  When I first got this game I knew characters were romancable (however I didn't know at the time Loghain wasn't) but it was my full intention on romancing him during my first play through.  Boy was I disappointed!  lol  Yet I fell hard for Alistair and call me weak, selfish and whatever else but I would stay with him no matter what, even if I had to be a mistress, so long as I felt he truly loved me above all else.  That ending sort of reminds me of the movie "Memoirs of  a Geisha" (great movie if you haven't seen it); I can never be "first wife" but that doesn't mean I am not the love of his life and he is mine as well. 

Although someone on this forum, in another thread, described Alistair perfectly in that he and his love for you is like that of a teenager.  He is young, naive and experiencing these emotions for the first time.  His love feels intense and he thinks he will be with you forever but ultimately he is very capable of moving on and dumping you should situations change.  I have to admit after playing through the end several different times and experiencing all of his seemingly cold and abrupt breakups, my heart has cooled to the boy at least a little.  Zevran is getting all the attention this go around.  Sure he's a little s.l.u.t.t.y. elf and will never, in my mind, look as good as that big, strong, adorable Alistair, but you get the sense of strong, deep emotions underneath it all.  I think if he were in Alistair's place he would never conceive of dumping me because of my race or lack of nobility.  And quite frankly he would probably assassinate anyone who even suggested such! 

Absolutely, Alistair is not as in love as the PC has the potential to be in love with him.  The race and class things are a complete and total turnoff and entirely contrary to my experience of someone in love's behavior when their mate is insulted.  I thoroughly expected to be defended and people run through.  But that's just what I'm used to!

[Leg_lamp]

Thyrza wrote...
Love can be sublime, noble and selfless but love can also be temperamental, impetuous, irrational and yes, selfish...

I totally agree with you about love. It can be so many things, which is what is amazing about it.  

Thyrza wrote...
It's perfectly possible to be lovelorn and not care about Ferelden's fate.  Marrying off Alistair and Anora may be good for the kingdom and maybe even for Alistair but it's an inglorious ending for the PC, a character in an escapist medium.

If you don’t care about Ferelden’s fate, then you wouldn’t have a problem with Alistair not being king, right? (And hopefully no problems with this prior sentence having so many negatives in it).  But there is this demonbaby issue. If you don’t mind the demonbaby, then you need no pep talks from me. 

If you do mind the demonbaby though, then sadly you’re lovelorn. You either have to come to terms with this (making you more disillusioned, but less lovelorn), or someone has to die. Whoever lives at the end has to be sad and guilt-ridden.

Since we are all Cassandras here and know what the future will be, my position remains that the only person who should be dying is Loghain, and that I would rather Alistair be a king than a drunk.  I wish there was a more gloriously satisfying ending, but there just isn’t.  Take comfort in that you care so much about it being so unsatisfying in this escapist medium, that it is sort of satisfying. Or something.
 
This is what your mom would probably tell you, too. Well, my mom would at least. So chin up, and go take yourself on a boatride (hopefully with Isabella).

If you rule out both Cullen and Zevran, who's left?   The other characters are so lightly fleshed-out that they are little more than ciphers.  Beside, Duncan is nearing his expiry date and I've read that Bann Teagan runs off with the barmaid.

Cullen’s willingness to cut off your mage’s head at the beginning and then going crazy and killing the apprentices at the end of the game was just a dealbreaker for me. He has a nice avatar though.

The Mage Niall wasn’t bad (you get to talk to him some in the mage origin), but he died heroically. Same thing with Ser Gilmore, but I’m pretty sure he is dead too.

If you didn’t choose Zevran over Alistair to begin with, then Zevran will know that he is sloppy seconds, and that you’re settling for him. If you chose Zevran to begin with, then you aren’t lovelorn, because you’re hopefully happy with Zevran. 

Bann Teagan will remain a bachelor, so long as you don’t give that girl money for her sword.  While in general, both myself and Sten agree that it is best to always tip something, I think in this case it would be forgivable.  Thanksgiving at Redcliffe would be awkward though.
 
P.S. To the lovelorn: Please don’t think that I’m judging you or anything.  Believe me that I mean no offence. On the contrary, I’ve been through it too, and I’m just trying to make you feel better (and amuse myself on a boring day!)  Thanks so much for discussing this with me, I think it is so much fun to think about.

PPS: I loved Memoirs of a Geisha too

PPPS: Sorry for the long post. : (

Modifié par Leg_lamp, 12 décembre 2009 - 12:12 .

[vocalemuse]

The Angry One wrote...

Kuravid wrote...

Recidiva wrote...
I...wiped...out...the...Blight.

You sure you want to tell me I can't do something?  Really?

You can't even become queen if you're not  of noble blood. Now how are you going to get some orphan child who had no impact on the blight whatsoever to become king?

Lying about it, possibly. No DNA tests in Ferelden!

Haha, really. xD Have the noble female stuff some pillows up her dresses for nine months then adopt a kid of the appropriate age (and hair/skintone of course) when "revealed" and never tell him/her they aren't really yours!

So devious and cruel in some ways, but I'd totally do it.

Modifié par vocalemuse, 12 décembre 2009 - 12:35 .

[Leg_lamp]

Recidiva wrote...
I think you're trying to make "sense" a part of romance. 

I do strongly agree with you that sacrificing yourself for love is indeed the most romantic ending by far.   I just don't think it is the "best" ending, or most satisfying for me.  

There have been some very sad posts on this board by the lovelorn.  Since we know all these possible outcomes though, here is a scenario where satisfaction can still be found.  While it doesn't end romantically, but there is still love, tragedies of different sorts. 

If I can make one person decide to finish their game, or entertain just one person on their lunch break, then I have done my job here.

[Recidiva]

Leg_lamp wrote...

I do strongly agree with you that sacrificing yourself for love is indeed the most romantic ending by far.   I just don't think it is the "best" ending, or most satisfying for me.  

There have been some very sad posts on this board by the lovelorn.  Since we know all these possible outcomes though, here is a scenario where satisfaction can still be found.  While it doesn't end romantically, but there is still love, tragedies of different sorts. 

If I can make one person decide to finish their game, or entertain just one person on their lunch break, then I have done my job here.

Well, yeah.  I think satisfying is individually determined.

There's something entirely...WRONG about the final "hero of Ferelden" scene when you're alone there and supposed to swallow that you voluntarily are going to be praised.  First game I was shocked and angry and just...walked out.  Numb.  Ignored everything she said and went straight to the credits and it was horrible.  Even going back (when I couldn't talk him out of it on the rooftop, I kept thinking...maybe with higher cunning...) I find I'm entirely bitter and rude and even ****ed out Wynne for saying something like "Nobody could have asked for more, could they?" and I get to say "Well, Alistair comes to mind."  It's nauseating.

Of course if I'm looking good on a bier, I'm going to cry for an hour anyway, but it's not angry crying.

There's no "sweet" ending really, but I'd rather go for bittersweet than angry and wondering how I didn't throw myself off the tower myself and how I managed to get dressed and listen to people blather about...me.  I don't care about me.  Shut up.  Hate you.

And absolutely, entertaining people...highest order of motivation.

[Null]

I don't think I will ever let Alistair sacrifice himself. At all. No one seems to give a damn at the post-coronation ceremony. I know I'm echoing what people are saying in this topic just now but still.

[vocalemuse]

I've only ever had Alistair die once and I'm never having him die again for the same reasons, it was like nobody gave a rat's ass. Even if that ceremony is months after the archdemon dies, still I think they should be honoring him and not me. He's the one who died, I didn't. I'm alive and was one of the Grey Wardens, so as Oghren would say, "Big sodding deal."

But I deleted that character and remade her because I decided I didn't like her hair color (hush, I've deleted and remade maxed out characters on MMOs for the same reasons before. xD) and wanted her to stay single this time around because she was in love with Tamlen. >>;

Modifié par vocalemuse, 12 décembre 2009 - 02:51 .

[Elystia]

I actually took another route in the game for the ending.
I did not take to the dark side bond with Morrigan..especially when it came to sleeping with MY man! In the end, she left (and good riddance) I wasnt going to let her walk around the earth with some abomination in her belly.
I certainly wasnt going to play second best to Anora...so....Allister got the last hit on the Archdemon and Anora became queen. I felt it necessary to give lands to the Dalish and for myself, go traveling.
Zevran asked to go with me..I think he wanted to go with me just to have sex with me and hide from the crows..but hey...I needed a beer and some company after all of that.
It helped me get over Allister as well.

My question is this:  When I wanted to take the last blow on the Archdemon..howcome I wasnt allowed to? It IS the end of the game is it not?
Why did Allister just HAVE to have the last strike? And in the conversation of him taking the last blow, he said something about him being king and all...which is weird considering I had already put Anora on the throne?

[Thyrza]

[quote]Leg_lamp wrote...

[quote]
Since we are all Cassandras here and know what the future will be, my position remains that the only person who should be dying is Loghain, and that I would rather Alistair be a king than a drunk.  I wish there was a more gloriously satisfying ending, but there just isn’t.  Take comfort in that you care so much about it being so unsatisfying in this escapist medium, that it is sort of satisfying. Or something.
[/quote]
Given the sticky end to which Cassandra came, that parallel doesn't give much comfort .  You're right, if my PC knew how it would all unravel, she would probably give up Alistair for the greater good.  Ferelden has fewer options than she does.  Plus I suspect that foresight would show that while she was the first love in his life, she won't be his last.
Perhaps my PC will swing by Radcliffe and see if Ser Perth survived 
 
[quote]
P.S. To the lovelorn: Please don’t think that I’m judging you or anything.  Believe me that I mean no offence. On the contrary, I’ve been through it too, and I’m just trying to make you feel better (and amuse myself on a boring day!)  Thanks so much for discussing this with me, I think it is so much fun to think about.
[/quote]

Thanks for a thought-provoking thread

[soteria]

Recidiva wrote...

Zoev wrote...

You think? I actually really like the friendship/sisterhood possible between Morrigan & a female PC. I was genuinely moved when she told my mage that whilst she might not always be worthy of my friendship, she would always value it.

And I'm with the OP on the greatest happiness for the greatest number being to marry Alistair to Anora and make Loghain a Grey Warden. But I actually like the idea of a reincarnated old god, so I let Loghain get his rocks off with Morrigan (though it's very spooky seeing him with exactly the same facial expressions as Alistair had in that sex scene).

I liked Morrigan as a female PC.  Her little eyebrow draw and the quaver in her voice is perfect in the part you mention.

I actually got more oogied out as a male having her say "My tent is cold"

Oh.  Well.  Ew.  Fine, let's get this over with. 

Worst.  Comeon.  Ever.

[SarEnyaDor]

I'm not among the lovelorn .. I love Alistair, but not as an elf ... for some reason when he says "Especially because of that!" it turned my stomach cold ... It made me feel like he only wanted me because I was exotic and different, not because of who I was as a person so when he broke up with me it was sort of a confirmation that all he was was fascinated by me, not really in love at all.



So I only romance him as a human now, elves romance Zevran and dwarves romance Lelianna but only because Shale won't have me.

[SarEnyaDor]

Anora is a cold-fish and Cailan an over-eager boy more concerned with "playing the hero" so I doubt they got jiggy with it very often after the wedding....

[the_red_queen]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

Anora is a cold-fish and Cailan an over-eager boy more concerned with "playing the hero" so I doubt they got jiggy with it very often after the wedding....

Quite possibly so. Judging by the joint king/queen coronation animation, Alistair ain't going to have much more luck.

Modifié par Zoev, 12 décembre 2009 - 01:00 .

[SarEnyaDor]

Yeah, I know! He's all trying to reach for her hand and be sweet and she just knocks it away. It can be a sort of poetic justice if he just broke your heart and all but ...



I think it is safe to assume no matter how you ended there will be a civil war due to lack of heirs in Ferelden's near future - your PC and Alistair probably will only practice forever, or you died and AListair mourns you forever, or Anora rules and never meets anyone as good as her dad, or they rule together and Alistair never again reaches "the promised land".



And after all that hard work to save the kingdom, too...

[the_red_queen]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

I think it is safe to assume no matter how you ended there will be a civil war due to lack of heirs in Ferelden's near future - your PC and Alistair probably will only practice forever, or you died and AListair mourns you forever, or Anora rules and never meets anyone as good as her dad, or they rule together and Alistair never again reaches "the promised land".

All hail the demon baby!

I'm not sure whether it's really a consideration for the lovelorn, but the succession issue bugs me too - knowing (admittedly only because of playing the game before!) that Anora ruling wouldn't marry and thus, presumably, have heirs, and so would leave the succession in a mess is one reason I don't like the Anora rules alone and PC rides off with Alistair option.

Modifié par Zoev, 12 décembre 2009 - 01:10 .

[tigrina]

imported_beer wrote...
Any thoughts as to why Anora and Cailan didn't have kids? They seem to have been married for a very long time, and an heir would have been expected of them.

The only reason I can think of is story. Just think of the extra drama when you're about to kill the grandfather of A's niece/nephew or throw her/his mother in prison.

Anora seems to actually have loved Cailan well enough, if you talk about him with her. I like her 'a son of Maric is quite the catch' for several reasons.

Besides this, I do agree with the options and reactions of partymembers on what happens in and after the Landsmeet are lacking.

Modifié par tigrina, 12 décembre 2009 - 05:45 .

[Malaia]

Best ending: put alistair as king, run off with Zevran building the wardens...happily ever after... or happily 30 years after. la~