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Should all Love interests be available to Shepard regardless of gender (poll)


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#276
frylock23

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malakim2099 wrote...

Bob3terd wrote...

Not every one is bi.
We need dedicated homosexual characters, hetero, and bi's.


Problem is that there were a lot of #2, and very little #1/#3.


You're joking right?

Try ME3 as a straight femShep. You have two options assuming you didn't nuke one of Virmire and managed to romance the other in ME2. Of the other two possibilities for you, the developers straight out admitted they forgot one was a LI so he doesn't even net you the achievement if you try to stay loyal, and the other dumps you for a chick he knocks up, so you get nothing there.

It's possible for a straight femShep to play ME3 with absolutely ZERO options.

#277
Helios969

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Meatus wrote...

No. I'm ecstatic that they finally included gay/bisexual males in their target demographic, but I like that some characters are bisexual, while others are not. It makes it more realistic.

However, I do think it's ****ed up that FemShep really only has 2 possible heterosexual LI's, if we're not to discount the possibility of expanding Shepard's story arc, which they've said may be possible, redacting their previous statement that it would definitely be the end of Shepard. I like strictly platonic opposite sex characters, like Joker and James, and you can even make advances (which they'll politely reject you), but they added so many LI's in 3 for MaleSheps, and not a single one for hetero FemShep. It's always been unfair for heterosexual FemSheps from the beginning in ME1 though, so I don't know what I expected. Oh well. Garrus is better than any LI that males have, hetero or otherwise, anyway.


That would be cool.  I'll even go farther have one of them say: Aw, hell, no, WTF's wrong with you.  Or make it a really long and awkward uncomfortable silence followed by:  Um...no.  -3 Rep.  If we're going for realism.

#278
frylock23

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Shallyah wrote...

Vapaä wrote...

Shallyah wrote...

Scrap that she loves chess. She still is Samantha Traynor, nothing more, nothing less, she's still adorable... she's still her; loving chess is not what defines a character.

And scrap that she is adorable. She still is Samantha Traynor, nothing more, nothing less... she's still her; being adorable is not what defines a character.

Scrap everything, Samantha Traynor is a blue 10x10 centimeter cube. She still is Samantha Traynor, nothing more, nothing less... she's still her; being Samantha Traynor is not what defines Samantha Traynor.


Exactly, what defines Samantha Traynor is a whole bunch of things, scraping ONE thing will not made her different, scraping everything will sure makes her different


You don't really get it, do you?

I am myself because I am everything I am. If you take away that I'm hetero, then it's not me anymore. If you take away that I loves playing videogames then I am not myself anymore.

You should go to the gay parades and tell those people that being gay is not a defining factor for them. Hint: Kevlar armor is adviced.


Obviously those people find that being gay is the major factor for them, but for a lot of folks I've run into, it's just one thing out of many.

If two guys walk into a room and you tell me one is gay, I'm ordinarily not going to be able to tell which one it is even after observing them for quite some time because most gays are not walking stereotypes no matter how much Hollywood writes them that way and gay pride parades make them look that way. Homosexuality is one aspect of their lives much like heterosexuality is simply one aspect of mine. It does not affect what hobbies I like, what my interests are, what colors I like, what foods I eat, what my personality is, how I perform my job and what jobs I perform, etc. Heck, it's not even supposed to affect how we pairbond only with whom we wish to pairbond.

So, it seems to me that heteros and homos are more alike than they are different, or they should be, or at least that's what I keep getting told until a topic like this comes up and suddenly we're too different? Image IPB

#279
Guest_Nyoka_*

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Beware, this video will destroy Ashley's character and personality for you guys.

#280
Luigitornado

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No. It was stupid in DA2, and it would've been stupid in ME3.

#281
bas_kon

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Nightdragon8 wrote...

you know... thats the thing, making everyone bi seems like a cheap way to add romance. Sure you will have those that "wish" they could romance said character. But making them all by, makes it seem more like a story character than a real character. And honestly most people prefere 'real' characters.


Until they make the lead LIs gay exclusive as well as most of the romanceable cast, and everytime they announce a new game there's a possibility you will be force to play gay or keep being celibate.
Then, you are going to complain about how this is a game and restrictions are bad and that what some call "real characters" suck. Everyone wants what's best for them, you want to keep your privilege over others and I want choice.

Imo, though, the two lead LIs should always be bi by default, well integrated to the story and with tons of interactions, so male and female of either sexuality can enjoy both subplots if they will.
Then, the gender exclusive LIs, if there are (because I rather two bi main characters well done, than 4 or 6 without so many interactions), they should be a plus, kind of like zevran, Leliana and Fenris, where you could even choose not to have/meet them at all.
That way, they would keep the bi rate in the game at two (one male one female) and whether there are more romances or not, everyone non romanceable would be considered straight by most and if there are more gender exclusive, at least the non straight PCs wouldn't miss a romance integrated to the main plot.

BTW, ME3 did it pretty well with Kaidan/Liara (leads) romances and gender exclusive ones , the problem is there were too many LIs and m/m wasn't allowed from the beginning though.

Modifié par bas_kon, 29 mai 2012 - 02:33 .


#282
EricHVela

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There's already a good amount of suspension of disbelief requirements. I think this would be a bit much.

I honestly worry a little when people want to head-canon a straight character into a bi or gay character. It almost sounds like the psychological "projection" scenario.

While we can sit here and claim that it is "our" story to do whatever we want, the truth is that we did not write a single bit of dialog. I will continue to bring up the comparison to a choose-your-own-adventure book. Each page is written by the author(s) and not by the readers regardless which page the reader sees. Each line of dialog in ME3 is written by the authors and performed by the voice actors regardless which dialog the player hears.

If they intended someone (such as Tali and Garrus) to be straight and they wrote them as such, they are straight in the game. Period. It actually makes more sense to have people that have a preference and will shoot down advances from certain people that try to start a romance.

It is up to you to head-canonize it outside of the game for your own story and not BWE's story.

#283
frylock23

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bas_kon wrote...

Nightdragon8 wrote...

you know... thats the thing, making everyone bi seems like a cheap way to add romance. Sure you will have those that "wish" they could romance said character. But making them all by, makes it seem more like a story character than a real character. And honestly most people prefere 'real' characters.


Until they make the lead LIs gay exclusive as well as most of the romanceable cast, and everytime they announce a new game there's a possibility you will be force to play gay or keep being celibate.
Then, you are going to complain about how this is a game and restrictions are bad and that what some call "real characters" suck. Everyone wants what's best for them, you want to keep your privilege over others and I want choice.

Imo, though, the two lead LIs should always be bi by default, well integrated to the story and with tons of interactions, so male and female of either sexuality can enjoy both subplots if they will.
Then, the gender exclusive LIs, if there are (because I rather two bi main characters well done, than 4 or 6 without so many interactions), they should be a plus, kind of like zevran, Leliana and Fenris, where you could even choose not to have/meet them at all.
That way, they would keep the bi rate in the game at two (one male one female) and whether there are more romances or not, everyone non romanceable would be considered straight by most and if there are more gender exclusive, at least the non straight PCs wouldn't miss a romance integrated to the main plot.


You clearly haven't been paying attention. We have been saying the options should be there for all, but that characters should have clearly defined orientation at the outset. In other words, everyone should have an option that suits them available, but the trend of making "omnisexual" (characters whose orientation is whatever the PC wants it to be) characters makes the characters shallow because it limits what a writer can do to give those characters depth. At the same time, I don't want every so-called "main" LI to be bi-sexual. That's not believa=ble either.

Good grief! Just introduce all the companions early and make sure that there's no clear writer's pet. Make sure that when a PC picks a LI, there are some generic LI scenes that play out with the PC's LI (i.e. Shepard's LI should have been the one coming up to Shepard's cabin after those nightmares, not always Liara; scenes like those that make the LI seem like they really care and are very important to the character and by extension the plot) no matter which one the PC decides to settle on, and it will feel like your LI is the "main" LI even if that character is or isn't central to the rest of the plot in some major way.

#284
dsprado956

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How about a Try-sexual? As in, "I'll try anything at least once."

#285
Guest_Nyoka_*

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Making romanceable characters available for romance doesn't make them shallow. It just makes them available.

Modifié par Nyoka, 29 mai 2012 - 02:47 .


#286
frylock23

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Nyoka wrote...

Making romanceable characters available for romance doesn't make them shallow. It just makes them available.


You're again missing the point. It's not making them available that makes them shallow. It's the necessity of of writing them to be believable as any orientation that makes them shallow. By placing that restriction on the writers you limit a lot of things that could otherwise be used as background details to add depth to the characters in question. They can't talk a lot about their past lives and loves for example because if they do, they risk limiting themselves in terms of their orientation.

Imagine Steve Cortez without the added tragedy of losing his husband.

Imagine Kaidan without having killed his instructor trying to defend Rahna who then was terrified of him.

Imagine Zevran without a background that necessitated he learn to sexually please anyone in order to get close to his targets.

In all three cases, the character becomes less interesting because you have to remove specific details about their pasts that make them who they are and make them more interesting. They become more shallow.

#287
jlb524

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frylock23 wrote...
You're again missing the point. It's not making them available that makes them shallow. It's the necessity of of writing them to be believable as any orientation that makes them shallow. By placing that restriction on the writers you limit a lot of things that could otherwise be used as background details to add depth to the characters in question. They can't talk a lot about their past lives and loves for example because if they do, they risk limiting themselves in terms of their orientation.


Are Tali, Liara, Ashley shallow characters b/c they don't talk about past love lives?

#288
frylock23

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jlb524 wrote...

frylock23 wrote...
You're again missing the point. It's not making them available that makes them shallow. It's the necessity of of writing them to be believable as any orientation that makes them shallow. By placing that restriction on the writers you limit a lot of things that could otherwise be used as background details to add depth to the characters in question. They can't talk a lot about their past lives and loves for example because if they do, they risk limiting themselves in terms of their orientation.


Are Tali, Liara, Ashley shallow characters b/c they don't talk about past love lives?


Ashley got lobotmized in ME3 because they took out the interesting bits of her character.

Tali was never that interesting to me because she was mostly just a walking Quarian codex who turned out to have daddy issues.

Liara is a creepy stalker. It's pretty clear that Shepard is her first love, and it's also clear that she's kind of like the asari equivalent of 12 when she starts crushing on you.

However, it would be strange if we never, ever run into a character again in any BioWare game who has a romantic past because they can't. Or if we do, they are like Aveline and unromanceable. Wouldn't you agree to that at least?

Just let the writers write a freakin' character and not some kind of strange tabula rasa.

#289
Rick Lewis

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Someone once said that EVERYONE is gay. It's just a matter of degree.

As shaky as that theory is, I'm pretty sure it doesn't apply at ALL to non humans. Safe bet Garrus would not be gay at all. Seems pretty out of character for him, especially considering his past (reach and flexibility) and interest in Tali.

Personally, I feel some people need to come to grips with certain characters not being bisexual or all out gay.

#290
Guest_Nyoka_*

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frylock23 wrote...

It's the necessity of of writing them to be believable as any orientation that makes them shallow.

No, it doesn't. The video I posted earlier is just as meaningful and effective regardless of your Shepard. So it can be done effectively.

By placing that restriction on the writers you limit a lot of things that could otherwise be used as background details to add depth to the characters in question.

Ashley had a very solid background in ME1 when my femshep romanced her. It all felt natural. Watch the videos.

They can't talk a lot about their past lives and loves for example because if they do, they risk limiting themselves in terms of their orientation.

They do talk about their past lives. As for their loves, the last thing I want from a girlfriend is to spend hours talking about those other girlfriends she's had. In fact I find very creepy that Manshep takes advantage of a man who is emotionally maimed by the death of his husband. Which means your approach can go wrong, and my approach can go right. And my approach gives you more choice.

Imagine Steve Cortez without the added tragedy of losing his husband.

Damn, he would have been a lot better.

Imagine Kaidan without having killed his instructor trying to defend Rahna who then was terrified of him.

You mean a gay man couldn't have done that?

Imagine Zevran without a background that necessitated he learn to sexually please anyone in order to get close to his targets.

Haven't played DAO.

In all three cases, the character becomes less interesting because you have to remove specific details about their pasts that make them who they are and make them more interesting. They become more shallow.

You can make solid characters by giving them a background that doesn't revolve around sexual orientation, like Ashley and Kaidan in ME1 or like every non-romanceable squadmate. Wrex has a hell of a past, he doesn't need to remind you that he's straight. Ashley would not have been shallower if she had been available to femshep by default, because she has the same lines in either case. Same lines = same level of depth.

If you feel like you absolutely need sexual orientation to be a part of characterization, then give that to non-romanceable characters. Give it to NPCs, make Joker gay, etc. That way you are taking into account sexual orientation, and you are not depriving people from romancing the characters they like.

Modifié par Nyoka, 29 mai 2012 - 03:18 .


#291
The Edge

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By making every party member romancable regardless of Shepard's gender, the player then controls their sexuality, really. The characters in DA2, for example, don't mention bisexuality at all; their sexuality becomes determined by the player.

This is what I think is wrong with having every character romancable. The player is basically shaping the sexuality of the characters around him/her via their gender choice, when the character (or the writer of said character) should be the one in control.

Modifié par The Edge, 29 mai 2012 - 03:25 .


#292
M Hedonist

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12 pages? Seriously?

More importantly, should all love interests be available to Shepard at the same time?
Discuss.

#293
Guest_Nyoka_*

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Samantha is great because of her wit and competence, and also because her situation is interesting. A scientist who is suddenly working on a military ship, and her efforts to adapt to the new environment, and excelling at that. That's interesting.

It would have been definitely bad if she had gone all "DURR LET ME TELL YA ABOUT MY MULTIPLE GIRLFRIENDS MKAY"

#294
frylock23

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They do talk about their past lives. As for their loves, the last thing I want from a girlfriend is to spend hours talking about those other girlfriends she's had. In fact I find very creepy that Manshep takes advantage of a man who is emotionally maimed by the death of his husband. Which means your approach can go wrong, and my approach can go right. And my approach gives you more choice.


Interesting, both my husband and I spent time talking about our past relationships. They were a part of who we were. It was part of getting to know each other. Not everyone you meet is going to be free of past emotional entanglements and you better realize that right away or your options in life are going to become more and more limited the older you get. Not only that, but you're going to make yourself into a bit of a hypocrit. I want no past emotional entanglements from you, but nevermind my own.


Damn, he would have been a lot better.


He would have been less interesting. He would just have been this guy tossing insults at Vega, and I would have had no reason to actually talk to him beyond finding out that he's my on-board shop keeper. Consequently, he would be dead in every single playthrough.

Coincidentally, I find Traynor less interesting, too, but she would then become more interesting than Steve because she at least plays games.


Imagine Kaidan without having killed his instructor trying to defend Rahna who then was terrified of him.

You mean a gay man couldn't have done that?


I don't know. Do gay men generally fall in love with women? Keep in mind that Kaidan plays as bi in ME3. A bisexual man could fall for a girl. I left out that detail of the backstory because I assumed you knew it. I guess I was wrong. Kaidan was in love with Rahna, and that's why he snapped so hard over the instructor's abuse of her.

It's also why Kaidan is so emotionally repressed. Taking all that out changes a large part of his character, or necessitates trying to explain it in another way because if you want Kaidan to play out as believably gay ... he probably shouldn't have fallen in love with a girl.


Imagine Zevran without a background that necessitated he learn to sexually please anyone in order to get close to his targets.

Haven't played DAO.


In all three cases, the character becomes less interesting because you have to remove specific details about their pasts that make them who they are and make them more interesting. They become more shallow.

You can make solid characters by giving them a background that doesn't revolve around sexual orientation, like Ashley and Kaidan in ME1. Ashley would not have been shallower if she had been available to femshep by default.


You can, but you also limit a lot of things by removing it entirely from the picture. Just like it's not believable that everyone you run into is Shepard-sexual, it's also not believable that absolutely no one had some kind of major formative event in their past that revolves in some way around a past love. Not everyone has to have it, but it's unrealistic to expect that no one has.

And DA2 did this with Aveline, and she was one of the most intersting characters because she had a realistic development arc across the 10 year span because she wasn't limited by the need to be emotionally and sexually crippled to cater to the whims of the PC. And it's off but she was also one of the favorite characters alongside the dwarf narrator. Isabela was another favorite and she wasn't crippled either because she was and could be unapologetically bisexual.

The others all had to play believably as either straight or gay, and it showed. They didn't really develop across all 10 years aside from their plot-centric arcs.

#295
Mobius-Silent

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frylock23 wrote...

Nyoka wrote...

Making romanceable characters available for romance doesn't make them shallow. It just makes them available.


You're again missing the point. It's not making them available that makes them shallow. It's the necessity of of writing them to be believable as any orientation that makes them shallow. By placing that restriction on the writers you limit a lot of things that could otherwise be used as background details to add depth to the characters in question. They can't talk a lot about their past lives and loves for example because if they do, they risk limiting themselves in terms of their orientation.

Imagine Steve Cortez without the added tragedy of losing his husband.

Imagine Kaidan without having killed his instructor trying to defend Rahna who then was terrified of him.

Imagine Zevran without a background that necessitated he learn to sexually please anyone in order to get close to his targets.

In all three cases, the character becomes less interesting because you have to remove specific details about their pasts that make them who they are and make them more interesting. They become more shallow.


A person can be sexually capable of bisexuality and choose to self-identify as gay or straight. All of the existing relationship backstories would be completely possible with characters of undefined sexual preference.

#296
Guest_Nyoka_*

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Please explain how my video makes Ashley shallower than she is in the default game.

#297
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And another thing. Designating one character for romance and making her available is way more efficient than writing two different characters.

People often advocate the creation of multiple characters each one with a predefined sexuality as a solution, but that won't happen due to how expensive it is. You complain about things not being realistic? This solution is not realistic. There's a reason why Cortez and Samantha have less lines and a shorter romance. And there's a reason why Samantha has less lines than Cortez. Corner cutting. When it comes to dealing with budgets and deadlines, the minority is always going to get the worst of it. Hence straight Femshep having next to none love interests at all and Samantha being the shortest romance in ME3.

About dealing with past and sexual orientation. Making a whole different character is way more expensive than making a couple alternative lines in the conversation. Replace "husband" with "wife" and Cortez becomes a perfectly good heterosexual romance for Femshep, or at least as good as he is now as gay. Then you have that tragic background that you like in both cases. Problem solved.

Again, if you feel like you need to have people who explicitly tell you that you can't romance them because they are not attracted to women, then make them non-romanceable characters. Have Chakwas speaking with her husband via space magic telephone when you enter the medical bay. That's very fine, adds background. Perfect. Just don't spend resources making a romance for that character that not everybody is going to enjoy.

Modifié par Nyoka, 29 mai 2012 - 03:52 .


#298
jlb524

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frylock23 wrote...
However, it would be strange if we never, ever run into a character again in any BioWare game who has a romantic past because they can't. Or if we do, they are like Aveline and unromanceable. Wouldn't you agree to that at least?

Just let the writers write a freakin' character and not some kind of strange tabula rasa.


This is very strange thinking to me.

Some characters are more open about their sexuality and their past sexual history...some don't reveal anything.

That's independend of sexuality though.

Making all LIs open to both genders in future games =/= making all LIs reveal nothing of their past sexual history.


Nyoka wrote...
It would have been definitely bad if she had gone all "DURR LET ME TELL YA ABOUT MY MULTIPLE GIRLFRIENDS MKAY"


Lol,but  they need to give her gay cred.

Without it, she's shallow.

Modifié par jlb524, 29 mai 2012 - 03:53 .


#299
The Edge

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Nyoka wrote...

And another thing. Designating one character for romance and making her available is way more efficient than writing two different characters.

People often advocate the creation of multiple characters each one with a predefined sexuality as a solution, but that won't happen due to how expensive it is. You complain about things not being realistic? This solution is not realistic. There's a reason why Cortez and Samantha have less lines and a shorter romance. And there's a reason why Samantha has less lines than Cortez. Corner cutting. When it comes to dealing with budgets and deadlines, the minority is always going to get the worst of it. Hence straight Femshep having next to none love interests at all and Samantha being the shortest romance in ME3.

About dealing with past and sexual orientation. Making a whole different character is way more expensive than making a couple alternative lines in the conversation. Replace "husband" with "wife" and Cortez becomes a perfectly good heterosexual romance for Femshep, or at least as good as he is now as gay. Then you have that tragic background that you like in both cases. Problem solved.


That "cutting corners" aspect could be applied to the ME2 romance options as well; they weren't given as much screen time as Liara, Garrus, Tali, etc.

And legitimizing the arguement with "cost efficiency" seems shallow in itself, IMO :P

Also, making all characters romancable regardless  of gender doesn't make them bi. The gender and sexuality of the PC is determining this, and it is only consistant within a single playthrough. Basically, if a male and a female PC romancing the same character in two seperate playthroughs play out the same way and with success, isn't that  taking away from the romancable character's character? I think so, but it's opinion, so take it as you will.

#300
Malditor

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Don't even know why this is an issue. Things are getting to the point where if you can't be gay/bi in a game then it's "not fair". The fact that they have such NPC's in the game already is/should be more than sufficient. I know this isn't real life, but they try to make things realistic in a lot of ways in games. That being said, they probably take the stance that not everyone in the game should be open to same sex relationships just like not everyone in real life is. This is a good thing.