632 réponses à ce sujet

[NUM13ER]

sparkyo42...
Sure there's a minority that are going to be a pain but the majority that are angry now are angry because of the way the PR managed response has played out. I'm angry because of the ending/autodialog/EMS but I'm not screaming. What is a growing anger is for example locking the EMS thread to get it off the board.

My main point is that Chris has rightfully pointed out that why should they come when people are going to yell, but that's not going to change and only grow worse. It's a cruel cycle but it's at this stage reinforcing the problem. People have had meaningful conversations with Aaron (I think, the mod from the DA team) without much screaming because we've been talking to him.

Similar to how I feel about it really. I wasn't angry with the ending, my response was very much that of disappointment. The PR tactics used to discredit fans and downplay legitimate criticism was what angered me personally. Though I understand why they don't want to talk to people who think being hidden behind a computer screen means they can act like pricks and issues death threats.

[chemiclord]

sparkyo42 wrote...

Sure there's a minority that are going to be a pain but the majority that are angry now are angry because of the way the PR managed response has played out. I'm angry because of the ending/autodialog/EMS but I'm not screaming. What is a growing anger is for example locking the EMS thread to get it off the board.

My main point is that Chris has rightfully pointed out that why should they come when people are going to yell, but that's not going to change and only grow worse. It's a cruel cycle but it's at this stage reinforcing the problem. People have had meaningful conversations with Aaron (I think, the mod from the DA team) without much screaming because we've been talking to him.

And that mod (Allen Schumacher, who is actually a QA guy with the DA team) got hammered pretty hard himself until the message sunk in that he had nothing to do with Mass Effect.  That was the ONLY reason the flak eventually quieted down.

If someone who WAS reponsible in even the slightest way for ME3 came in here, it would be like releasing a lamb to a pack of wolves.  I know this because that is EXACTLY what happened.  The vicious minority overwhelmed everything else, and Gamble finally had enough of it and left.  Said angry mob then tried (and mostly succeeded) to make the entire debacle Gamble's fault in the eyes of the fans.

[Kunari801]

sparkyo42 wrote...

Kunari801 wrote...
Agree, they will be damned-if-they-do and damned-if-they-don't.   I'd rather they put their heads down and work on the EC than try to play PR.  I think they've done the best they can.   Open a thread for feedback and monitor the forums for ideas of what the fan wanted or had issues with.   BW is also looking at other forums like HTL forums.  

I think they'll come out with news as they get closer to the EC but they have to be careful not to drop too many spoilers. 

I agree with you but I don't mean telling us about whats going on with the EC, I mean trying to drain some of the venom around here. Right now the feelings on the forum are only going to be deminished if a) people give up and leave or something more than "we're listening" happens. I fully understand that some of the behaviour has been wrong and inexcusable from people, but I think at least some of that has built up over two months of silence. If the bunker approach hadn't happened I think the feelings on the board would be better. If nothing changes until late summer then the EC could be ME 4 and the mood will still be poision. 

I wish they'd do some dev-blogs to talk about ME3, even if it was not specific to the EC yet.  Something like CCP does with it's DevBlogs.   For example a blog called "The Long Goodbye" could discuss how the dev's feel the majority of ME3 is full of story arc endings.  IE: Tuchanka is the ending of Wrex/Genophage/Mordin arcs, etc. 

Another could be "Lighs, Camera, Action" about how you changed the lighting in ME3 (from ME2) to be more realistic looking with deeper shadows.  Talk about how you program camera and character actions for the conversations.  

These types of blogs would spur converstations and hopefully as you say "drain some venom" and open the door to civil discussions. 

[jeff359]

chemiclord wrote...

jeff359 wrote...

The fact they truly believed they had something good is what makes me concerned. But I have some faith

Believe it or not, people make mistakes.  Even the best writers misguage what fans expect or what they'd want.  Sometimes the story the writer is telling isn't the one the audience is experiencing.

It happens.  At that point, the creator has to balance what the audience expects with what he or she wants to say.  It's not as simple as bending over and giving the fans everything they want and to hell with anything else.  That's empty pandering, and can be done by anyone.

Oh i get that people make mistakes, I've made a few. Its how you handle the mistake that matters. And in no way do i think they should "bend over" to the fans.

[sparkyo42]

Kunari801 wrote...

sparkyo42 wrote...

Kunari801 wrote...
Agree, they will be damned-if-they-do and damned-if-they-don't.   I'd rather they put their heads down and work on the EC than try to play PR.  I think they've done the best they can.   Open a thread for feedback and monitor the forums for ideas of what the fan wanted or had issues with.   BW is also looking at other forums like HTL forums.  

I think they'll come out with news as they get closer to the EC but they have to be careful not to drop too many spoilers. 

I agree with you but I don't mean telling us about whats going on with the EC, I mean trying to drain some of the venom around here. Right now the feelings on the forum are only going to be deminished if a) people give up and leave or something more than "we're listening" happens. I fully understand that some of the behaviour has been wrong and inexcusable from people, but I think at least some of that has built up over two months of silence. If the bunker approach hadn't happened I think the feelings on the board would be better. If nothing changes until late summer then the EC could be ME 4 and the mood will still be poision. 

I wish they'd do some dev-blogs to talk about ME3, even if it was not specific to the EC yet.  Something like CCP does with it's DevBlogs.   For example a blog called "The Long Goodbye" could discuss how the dev's feel the majority of ME3 is full of story arc endings.  IE: Tuchanka is the ending of Wrex/Genophage/Mordin arcs, etc. 

Another could be "Lighs, Camera, Action" about how you changed the lighting in ME3 (from ME2) to be more realistic looking with deeper shadows.  Talk about how you program camera and character actions for the conversations.  

These types of blogs would spur converstations and hopefully as you say "drain some venom" and open the door to civil discussions. 

Something like that would be a great idea, to stop the worst elements of us they could lock and sticky them. To be clear I'm not saying that anyone of the ME team should accept the C**P that some people have been up to. They rightfull deserve scorn and a ban, I'm just saying that as a defence mechanism it's not working and costing them more. Those that are disappointed/confused/or controlled angry could be talked to before the silence makes them move towards the extreme looney edge.

As has been said there's no perfect answer to this problem but the current situation I think isn't even not making the situation worse. It's turned some of the board into a self reinforcing cycle.

[chemiclord]

NUM13ER wrote...

Similar to how I feel about it really. I wasn't angry with the ending, my response was very much that of disappointment. The PR tactics used to discredit fans and downplay legitimate criticism was what angered me personally. Though I understand why they don't want to talk to people who think being hidden behind a computer screen means they can act like pricks and issues death threats.

But this here is actually part of the problem.

The PR releases DIDN'T discredit you or talk down to you.  They accentuated the positives and tried to gloss over the negatives.  That's what PR DOES.  That's the ENTIRE DAMN POINT OF IT.

People WANTED to be insulted by what the PR releases said, so they ripped apart and parsed every word until they found whatever evidence they wanted to be pissed off by it.  They injected meaning that wasn't there... if for no reason that PR statements are, at their core, empty words with little tangible meaning to begin with.

Modifié par chemiclord, 30 mai 2012 - 08:06 .

[Kunari801]

chemiclord wrote...

NUM13ER wrote...
Similar to how I feel about it really. I wasn't angry with the ending...

... People WANTED to be insulted by what the PR releases said, so they ripped apart and parsed every word until they found whatever evidence they wanted to be pissed off by it.  They injected meaning that wasn't there... if for no reason that PR statements are, at their core, empty words with little tangible meaning to begin with.

Which is why I think the DevBlog idea I proposed would be good. 

[chemiclord]

Kunari801 wrote...

Which is why I think the DevBlog idea I proposed would be good. 

Except that it wouldn't help.  At all.

Here's how such conversations would go.  Within the first ten comments, you'd see eight variations of:

CHANGE THE ENDING!
BIOWARE SUX THE ENDING SUX THEY ALL SUK AND SHOULD EAT **** AND DIE
WE DUNT WANT TO HEAR ABOUT ANYTHING BUT CHANGING THE ****TY ENDING
CHANGE THE ENDIGN THEN WEEL TALK
**** YOU BIOWARE UNTIL YOU CHANGE THE ENDING!

It would then devolve into angry bickering.

Just like every other attempt a member of the ME team has made.

[sparkyo42]

chemiclord wrote...

Kunari801 wrote...

Which is why I think the DevBlog idea I proposed would be good. 

Except that it wouldn't help.  At all.

Here's how such conversations would go.  Within the first ten comments, you'd see eight variations of:

CHANGE THE ENDING!
BIOWARE SUX THE ENDING SUX THEY ALL SUK AND SHOULD EAT **** AND DIE
WE DUNT WANT TO HEAR ABOUT ANYTHING BUT CHANGING THE ****TY ENDING
CHANGE THE ENDIGN THEN WEEL TALK
**** YOU BIOWARE UNTIL YOU CHANGE THE ENDING!

It would then devolve into angry bickering.

Just like every other attempt a member of the ME team has made.

That's why I suggested that it be locked and stickyed. I'm just saying that if the status quo remains until late summer/ september then I think they could make a whole new game and it wouldn't matter. Those that like the end will like it but the rest will have moved on and the franchise will be dead.

[Kunari801]

You think CCP started those DevBlogs because players were happy? No, they do it for damage control and PR. I agree either stick & lock the threads and heavy moderation on the forums it's what CCP has to do sometimes too.

Eventually the level-headed posters will float to the top. The angry childish posts will slow down once they no longer get attention.

[chemiclord]

sparkyo42 wrote...

That's why I suggested that it be locked and stickyed. I'm just saying that if the status quo remains until late summer/ september then I think they could make a whole new game and it wouldn't matter. Those that like the end will like it but the rest will have moved on and the franchise will be dead.

Oh yeah, THAT would go over REAL well.  Because the angry mob isn't already infuriated that Bioware refuses to talk to them... they would TOTALLY receive a blog with NO chance to reply with grace and aplomb...

... oh wait, no they wouldn't.  It would erupt into a completely new ****storm.

I understand it's frustrating that Bioware isn't talking.  I know it's hard to sit patiently and wait.  But as long as the angry mob exists, the best policy for Bioware is not give them any more ammunition.  That means the best thing for them to do is maintain the aura of silence, do their work, and release their attempt to fix their mistake when it's ready.  Then let the chips fall where they may.

Believe it or not... fans really don't have to keep posting on here or stay completely up to date with the latest news.  It's perfectly all right to find something else to do, then come back when the EC is ready.  It's not going anywhere.  It'll be there whenever you feel ready to pick it up and give it a look.  It might even be the best idea, because the poison cloud hovering over this fandom isn't going away any time soon no matter what Bioware would do or say.

[TUHD]

If they´re going to take their time till September but then deliver also LotSB/size or bigger DLC, I´ll be totally happy. If they´re going to take that long and deliver scrap however... or not deliver something at all...

[TUHD]

chemiclord wrote...

sparkyo42 wrote...

That's why I suggested that it be locked and stickyed. I'm just saying that if the status quo remains until late summer/ september then I think they could make a whole new game and it wouldn't matter. Those that like the end will like it but the rest will have moved on and the franchise will be dead.

Oh yeah, THAT would go over REAL well.  Because the angry mob isn't already infuriated that Bioware refuses to talk to them... they would TOTALLY receive a blog with NO chance to reply with grace and aplomb...

... oh wait, no they wouldn't.  It would erupt into a completely new ****storm.

I understand it's frustrating that Bioware isn't talking.  I know it's hard to sit patiently and wait.  But as long as the angry mob exists, the best policy for Bioware is not give them any more ammunition.  That means the best thing for them to do is maintain the aura of silence, do their work, and release their attempt to fix their mistake when it's ready.  Then let the chips fall where they may.

Believe it or not... fans really don't have to keep posting on here or stay completely up to date with the latest news.  It's perfectly all right to find something else to do, then come back when the EC is ready.  It's not going anywhere.  It'll be there whenever you feel ready to pick it up and give it a look.  It might even be the best idea, because the poison cloud hovering over this fandom isn't going away any time soon no matter what Bioware would do or say.

True that. You cannot change anymore what Bioware is planning to do with it. If you could at all ±P
There are too much trolls pro/ and anti/ending atm to make the forums interesting atm... and no real news. Oh well...

[sparkyo42]

chemiclord wrote...

sparkyo42 wrote...

That's why I suggested that it be locked and stickyed. I'm just saying that if the status quo remains until late summer/ september then I think they could make a whole new game and it wouldn't matter. Those that like the end will like it but the rest will have moved on and the franchise will be dead.

Oh yeah, THAT would go over REAL well.  Because the angry mob isn't already infuriated that Bioware refuses to talk to them... they would TOTALLY receive a blog with NO chance to reply with grace and aplomb...

... oh wait, no they wouldn't.  It would erupt into a completely new ****storm.

I understand it's frustrating that Bioware isn't talking.  I know it's hard to sit patiently and wait.  But as long as the angry mob exists, the best policy for Bioware is not give them any more ammunition.  That means the best thing for them to do is maintain the aura of silence, do their work, and release their attempt to fix their mistake when it's ready.  Then let the chips fall where they may.

Believe it or not... fans really don't have to keep posting on here or stay completely up to date with the latest news.  It's perfectly all right to find something else to do, then come back when the EC is ready.  It's not going anywhere.  It'll be there whenever you feel ready to pick it up and give it a look.  It might even be the best idea, because the poison cloud hovering over this fandom isn't going away any time soon no matter what Bioware would do or say.

I only drop in every few weeks, to be honest it's not patiently waiting, it's indifference and the feeling of looking in at a sick friend. I'm sure plenty of fans have moved on to other games, the question is will they ever look back?

Maybe you're right and silence is what is going to stay. But if that's so I don't rate the chances of either other SP DLC or anything like ME4 and I pity the DA team having to try and release DA 3 after this.

[chemiclord]

sparkyo42 wrote...
I only drop in every few weeks, to be honest it's not patiently waiting, it's indifference and the feeling of looking in at a sick friend. I'm sure plenty of fans have moved on to other games, the question is will they ever look back?

Maybe you're right and silence is what is going to stay. But if that's so I don't rate the chances of either other SP DLC or anything like ME4 and I pity the DA team having to try and release DA 3 after this.

Then they've already lost you, and nothing they say is going to bring you back in.  Only results will.  So, even if your case, there's really no point in opening the lines of communication.

I don't pity the Dragon Age team at all.  DA3 will succeed, or fail, completely on its own merits.  If they produce a great game, Mass Effect 3's reception and fallout will mean little.  If it flops, then it will join an increasing list of substandard offerings, only connected by the irate masses who are looking for ever more reasons to hate.

[sparkyo42]

chemiclord wrote...

sparkyo42 wrote...
I only drop in every few weeks, to be honest it's not patiently waiting, it's indifference and the feeling of looking in at a sick friend. I'm sure plenty of fans have moved on to other games, the question is will they ever look back?

Maybe you're right and silence is what is going to stay. But if that's so I don't rate the chances of either other SP DLC or anything like ME4 and I pity the DA team having to try and release DA 3 after this.

Then they've already lost you, and nothing they say is going to bring you back in.  Only results will.  So, even if your case, there's really no point in opening the lines of communication.

I don't pity the Dragon Age team at all.  DA3 will succeed, or fail, completely on its own merits.  If they produce a great game, Mass Effect 3's reception and fallout will mean little.  If it flops, then it will join an increasing list of substandard offerings, only connected by the irate masses who are looking for ever more reasons to hate.

Oh I like that tell me to go play something else and then tell me they've lost me. For the record I've actually be drawn back to DAO with Diablo 3 in between. And yes something like Kunari801 suggested would interest me. I also pointed out how Paradox dealt with the same type of fan hate/fallout. It's too late for that but I still think that this isn't the perfect path forward.

This has used up a lot of good credit in the Bioware brand, DA2 could be defended as either a one off or bad choices ( I actually didn't mind it and got the DLC's) but after this how many preorders do you think DA3 will get? How many will delay to get fan reviews instead? This whole thing will have fallout throughout the other teams and their products rightly or wrongly.

Modifié par sparkyo42, 30 mai 2012 - 09:22 .

[Taboo]

I really truly believe that this is going to be bigger than they let on.

It won't be perfect, but it should make it better.

I'm reminded of that daily, for the simply fact that they ARE human beings. Take Mr. Buskell, a producer, for instance. He took my advice, a total strangers, about a camera he was going to use for his wedding and he did it and thanked for for it after the wedding.

That doesn't sound like a snobbish jerk to me.

[TJX2045]

 I'm confused here: what made people think that we'd see ANY footage regarding the EC when it can spoil the storyline for any prospective buyers?  Seriously guys.  If they're only adding stuff to the end you're not seeing it until you watch it on youtube or download it for yourself.  I will be doing the latter.

[Taboo]

TJX2045 wrote...

 I'm confused here: what made people think that we'd see ANY footage regarding the EC when it can spoil the storyline for any prospective buyers?  Seriously guys.  If they're only adding stuff to the end you're not seeing it until you watch it on youtube or download it for yourself.  I will be doing the latter.

They keep saying "play it" too.

I wouldn't assign meaning to it but it DOES make me chuckle.

[chemiclord]

Another possibility to consider is that when the announcement was initially made, perhaps all they were planning to do was add a few cutscenes, maybe some dialogue, and thought that would be enough.

But as the feedback continued to roll in, they realized that alone wouldn't cut it.

[Taboo]

chemiclord wrote...

Another possibility to consider is that when the announcement was initially made, perhaps all they were planning to do was add a few cutscenes, maybe some dialogue, and thought that would be enough.

But as the feedback continued to roll in, they realized that alone wouldn't cut it.

If you'll let me bludgeon you guys with more film world things for a minute:

You don't spend two years of your life on something and not feel it when it's received like this. It just doesn't work that way. As upset as I am with some of the higher ups right now I cannot be more pleased that they have chosen to do something like this.

You don't get second chances like this were I come from.

They care, don't forget that.

[Peranor]

I'm willing to wait many more month for the EC if it means we get a better product. Take your time BioWare, don't rush it. I'm in no hurry. I have Diablo 3 to entertain me while waiting =)

Modifié par anorling, 30 mai 2012 - 09:41 .

[Mev186]

anorling wrote...


I'm willing to wait many more month for the EC if it means we get a better product. Take your time BioWare, don't rush it. I'm in no hurry. I have Diablo 3 to entertain me while waiting =)

Agreed. Still, it wouldn't hurt to release something, anything. A small sneak peek reassures us that they are on top of it, I'm not saying they aren't working hard but a little reassurance never hurt.

[chemiclord]

sparkyo42 wrote...

Oh I like that tell me to go play something else and then tell me they've lost me. For the record I've actually be drawn back to DAO with Diablo 3 in between. And yes something like Kunari801 suggested would interest me. I also pointed out how Paradox dealt with the same type of fan hate/fallout. It's too late for that but I still think that this isn't the perfect path forward.

This has used up a lot of good credit in the Bioware brand, DA2 could be defended as either a one off or bad choices ( I actually didn't mind it and got the DLC's) but after this how many preorders do you think DA3 will get? How many will delay to get fan reviews instead? This whole thing will have fallout throughout the other teams and their products rightly or wrongly.

There is no perfect path forward at this point.  There are better ones, though.  The best available option for Bioware, right now, is to keep their mouths shut and let the end result of their work speak for them.  There's too much raw, pestulant hate for anything Bioware CAN say to do anything other than fan the flames.

And sure, pre-purchases for Dragon Age 3 are going to be less than its predecessor.  But I suspect that will have more to do with DA2 being harshly criticized rather than Mass Effect 3.  The relation between the two franchises is tertiary.  And if DA3 is exceptional, their sales at the end of the day will reflect that, no matter how poorly ME3 is received.

Modifié par chemiclord, 30 mai 2012 - 10:04 .

[Kunari801]

anorling wrote...
I'm willing to wait many more month for the EC if it means we get a better product. Take your time BioWare, don't rush it. I'm in no hurry. I have Diablo 3 to entertain me while waiting =)

Anorling, good to see you pop in! 

I actually still enjoy ME, I'm almost done with my 3rd imported Shep, and plan to maybe make a full FemShep play from ME1 to ME3.  I plan to stop at the London FOB from now but I still enjoying seeing the differences in ME3.  

I picked up the VS sooner than I did in other playthroughs and Kaidan (on that Shep) had much more to say when doing the Tuchanka bomb mission.   I'm Renegade on this Shep too and there is more differences than some people claim.  I've also picked another LI on this Shep.  

chemiclord wrote...
There is no perfect path forward at this point...  The best available option for Bioware, right now, is to keep their mouths shut and let the end result of their work speak for them.  There's too much raw, pestulant hate for anything Bioware CAN say to do anything other than fan the flames.... 

 


I still think a DevBlog web page would help, no comments on that web page.   Sure the haters would still whine but they're whining now. 

Modifié par Kunari801, 30 mai 2012 - 10:42 .