1100 réponses à ce sujet

[Tirigon]

android654 wrote...

The differince is in it's impact. How many children die from ricketts? The summer flu? How many husbands die from mauraders riding into their countryside home? For most of the industrialized world, these problems do not exist any longer. But if you talk about people strung out on a new drug, cops brutally beating people simply because they're unchallanged, and everyone having to be a criminal in order to survive, it might resonate a bit stronger since these are things  many people have to deal with now.

Seems to me the difference is in how well you can immerse yourself in a story.

Personally, I dont need to actually have my entire family slaughtered by crusaders, or die of the Black Death, to feel for the people who experience such tragedies in a story.

Most of the heroes in Cyberpunk aren't badasses at all. They're usually weak and sickly like Neo was in the matrix. It's usually someone else who comes along and saves them physically. Both Case and Johnny needed Molly to keep them alive because they coudln't do it on their own. In a Cyberpunk setting, most people are getting by, and they usually defy authority out of necessity to survive, not tobe bad ass. There are characters who play opposition to the powers that be, but they're rarely at the forefront of the story. In fact the only one I can think of is in Channel Zero, and... well... Let's just say ti didn't end well for her.

Like Neo, eh? Oddly enough, Neo is the very definition of a cool badassmotherf*cking hacker dude, what with being the promised savior of everything, basically Jesus with a cool, metal-style cloak. And he always wears sunglasses, even in the dark.

As for the "defying authority because you must": That is a given, being the formerly described badass. Revolting without reason doesnt make you cool, it makes you a stupid hooligan.

Scince ain't magic, amigo.

Real science is not. Science in Fiction is, often.

But at any rate, what I MEANT is: New, cutting-edge technology is usually used in the same way a magic sword or ancient prophecies are used in fantasy: To give the hero the edge he needs, to explain why he, and noone else, is the one who can do what needs be done.

Modifié par Tirigon, 01 juin 2012 - 02:26 .

[Sajji]

Could anybody share basic info on the ruleset?

I am unfamiliar with the IP and have never been a gigantic 'punk' fan per se other than it is an atmosphere that is intriguing and enjoyable when I come across it, and is always fun and interesting.

I read there is no levelling only skill progression, and heard that bullets can kill you in one hit and your defense against it does not increase.

[GodWood]

Is this excitement I'm feeling?

I think it is.

[slimgrin]

Sajji wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

We'll kill ourselves long before the sun does, which is exactly why CyberPunk is still relevant. Corporate greed and it's far reaching effects. Corporations eat society and the very environment we live in from the inside out.

I don't even need to cite religion. We've lived with destructive religious ideas for centuries. But corporate, faceless greed will run us into the ground.

Don't forget totalitarianism. The Combine are a good representative of that.

One of the main reasons I'm glad I'm American, not North Korean.

At least they have equality.

You mean the 'divine' North Korea ? Channeling Hitchens there.

I agree. And I'm hoping CDPR doesn't fall into the greedy corporation cliche. It's a reality now, but it'll need a fresh take for them to make it interesting in the game.

@Tirigon. Sci-Fi strives for plausible lore. Magic does not. Two different things.

Modifié par slimgrin, 01 juin 2012 - 02:39 .

[naughty99]

Sajji wrote...

Could anybody share basic info on the ruleset?

I am unfamiliar with the IP and have never been a gigantic 'punk' fan per se other than it is an atmosphere that is intriguing and enjoyable when I come across it, and is always fun and interesting.

I read there is no levelling only skill progression, and heard that bullets can kill you in one hit and your defense against it does not increase.

You receive Improvement Points from studying, finding a teacher or direct experience (rewarded by the GM based on your actions), and you can use these points to improve your skills or learn new ones. So it seems possible the videogame version will incorporate skill based progression like TES games, rather than XP rewards.

Cyberpunk 2020 rules summary

Modifié par naughty99, 01 juin 2012 - 02:41 .

[Tirigon]

slimgrin wrote...


@Tirigon. Sci-Fi strives for plausible lore. Magic does not. Two different things.

Not universally true. A good fantasy author makes sure to explain all magic in his lore, and not have any magics that go beyond that.

Otoh, many things in Sci-Fi, such as FTL travel, are as far as we know a lot more unrealistic than most magic.

[android654]

Tirigon wrote...
Seems to me the difference is in how well you can immerse yourself in a story.

And it's easier to imerse yourself in circumstances that are more similar to your own.

Like Neo, eh? Oddly enough, Neo is the very definition of a cool badassmotherf*cking hacker dude, what with being the promised savior of everything, basically Jesus with a cool, metal-style cloak. And he always wears sunglasses, even in the dark.

Which is why I said in the Neo in the Matrix. Meaning before he's found by Trinity and saved by her. He's weak, agoraphobic, isolated, and solopsistic. He masks all of this with weak sarcasm. Sarcasm which is broken only when he meets someone who is much more stronger than he is in Trinity. That's usually how it works. One person is weak and mentally shelters themselves from thier bleak reality. The other is the person who understands the world they live in and what they need to do in order to thrive guides the weaker one. So no, Neo wasn't a badass until Trinity saves him.

As for the "defying authority because you must": That is a given, being the formerly described badass. Revolting without reason doesnt make you cool, it makes you a stupid hooligan.

Than you don't know anything about the style of fiction. It's not defying authority for the sake of it. It's commiting crimes because your home has been turned to rubble, there's no schools, everyone is drugged out of their mind, there's little to no food, no jobs, and the people who run the world have walled you and the rest off in the ruins to rot while they use up what little is left on the world. They have no other means to do anything, so they commit crimes in order to stay alive, to get some kind of food and to keep themselves going., It's a world of desperation, not being rebellious because they can.

Real science is not. Science in Fiction is, often.

But at any rate, what I MEANT is: New, cutting-edge technology is usually used in the same way a magic sword or ancient prophecies are used in fantasy: To give the hero the edge he needs, to explain why he, and noone else, is the one who can do what needs be done.

Not anymore. A lot of stuff in Neuromancer and Johnny Mnemonic exists now. The tools people usually purchase there are as common as paper and pen is now. They times Case needs to overcome something, it's because he's clever not because of the technology.

Modifié par android654, 01 juin 2012 - 02:45 .

[wsandista]

CD Projekt RPG? That means I will definitely buy the game.

[Sajji]

naughty99 wrote...

Sajji wrote...

Could anybody share basic info on the ruleset?

I am unfamiliar with the IP and have never been a gigantic 'punk' fan per se other than it is an atmosphere that is intriguing and enjoyable when I come across it, and is always fun and interesting.

I read there is no levelling only skill progression, and heard that bullets can kill you in one hit and your defense against it does not increase.

You receive Improvement Points from studying, finding a teacher or direct experience (rewarded by the GM based on your actions), and you can use these points to improve your skills or learn new ones. So it seems possible the videogame version will incorporate skill based progression like TES games, rather than XP rewards.

Cyberpunk 2020 rules summary

Thanks a lot, Naughty. Lots of great info.

[mupp3tz]

@Sajji

Have fun doing some background on the source material! Although, I'm sure that CDPR will use heavy influence from it.. I wouldn't necessarily assume that everything will remain exact... i.e. one bullet kill and defense against it, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if they made it more, well.. game like as opposed to realistic.

Any suggestions for good reading in the realm of cyberpunk or related? I'm going on a loooong flight soon and am spending mad moneys on my Kindle. Lulz.

[naughty99]

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...

@Sajji

Have fun doing some background on the source material! Although, I'm sure that CDPR will use heavy influence from it.. I wouldn't necessarily assume that everything will remain exact... i.e. one bullet kill and defense against it, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if they made it more, well.. game like as opposed to realistic.

Any suggestions for good reading in the realm of cyberpunk or related? I'm going on a loooong flight soon and am spending mad moneys on my Kindle. Lulz.

- some really good general sci fi novels -
A Canticle for Leibowitz
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress
City of Illusions
The City and the City
The Dispossessed
Ringworld
The End of Eternity
Dune
Eater
11/22/63
The Left Hand of Darkness
Ender's Game
Perdido Street Station
Embassytown

- Cyberpunk related -
A Scanner Darkly
Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep
The Unteleported Man
Neuromancer

Modifié par naughty99, 01 juin 2012 - 04:02 .

[kirvingtwo]

I'm keeping my excitement at bay until there is some sort of official confirmation that you can play a female character. If that happens I'll be all over it with bells on.

[Tirigon]

android654 wrote...

Than you don't know anything about the style of fiction. It's not defying authority for the sake of it. It's commiting crimes because your home has been turned to rubble, there's no schools, everyone is drugged out of their mind, there's little to no food, no jobs, and the people who run the world have walled you and the rest off in the ruins to rot while they use up what little is left on the world. They have no other means to do anything, so they commit crimes in order to stay alive, to get some kind of food and to keep themselves going., It's a world of desperation, not being rebellious because they can.

And that makes you a cool badass.

[mupp3tz]

@naughty99

Thanks a bunch! I'll be looking into the suggested titles. :]

Judging from your suggestions, perhaps it's time I plunged into China Mieville.

Modifié par M U P P 3 T Z, 01 juin 2012 - 12:46 .

[android654]

[quote]M U P P 3 T Z wrote...

@Sajji

Have fun doing some background on the source material! Although, I'm sure that CDPR will use heavy influence from it.. I wouldn't necessarily assume that everything will remain exact... i.e. one bullet kill and defense against it, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if they made it more, well.. game like as opposed to realistic.

Any suggestions for good reading in the realm of cyberpunk or related? I'm going on a loooong flight soon and am spending mad moneys on my Kindle. Lulz.[/quote]

Definitely check out the "Sprawl trilogy" by William Gibson. These are Neuromancer, Count Zero, and Mona Lisa Overdrive. This is the series, along with Johnny Mnemonic, that is responsible for bigger names like Ghost in the Shell and the Matrix. If you're interested in this, I recommend starting with Neuromancer and work up from there.

I'd recommend checking out at least the pilot of Dark Angel which you can See here[/quote] It's probably the best example of a Cyberpunk world you'll ever see displayed in a fashion made for t.v. It has all of the hallmarks of a Cyberpunk novel, corrupt politicians, abuse police, a militarized police state, high poverty, robin hood hackers/journalists, resistance groups, high tech security, everyone's a hustler and everyone's lost. The setting itself is pretty poetic.

[AdamJenson]

slimgrin wrote...

Seagloom wrote...

It will be interesting to see if this game pays off for them or not. Setting out to cater to a specific niche can either be a godsend if enough fans show up to buy your game, or a curse if most of your potential audience is too alienated or apathetic toward your product. That was why Planescape: Torment developed a cult following instead of becoming the runaway hits Baldur's Gate and KotOR did.

If this game does turn out as amazing as some folks expect it will, I hope it moves enough copies to justify sequels. Otherwise it may end up as another Bloodlines. Well loved by its fans, but otherwise doomed to relative obscurity.

Bring doomed to obsurity is always a risk, but I watched the conference and Iwinki seemed to refer to this universe as a setting for more than one game, which would make sense. I see this move similar to Bioware utilizing D&D for Baldur's Gate. As for cateruing to a niche, well, thats what the Withcer games are. They've never attempted mainstream games and it doens't sound like they're gonna start.

My only worry is how to make combat, particlualrly gun combat stand out in this day and age. And I'm curious about the camera view as well though I'm guessing it will be third person.

Does combat, be it gun or sword-based, need to be standout?  Can't they find a system that works well, minimizes the clutz factor, and go with that again and again so you don't have to learn some entirely new/different fighting method with every game? 

At least DEHR and ME were very similar in controls (keyboard) so I didn't have a really steep curve to hike to play one after the other.  It would have driven me bonkers if Bioware had changed combat mechanics/controls with each ME game in the series.  Find a system you like to use in your games and stick with it so there is zero learning curve as much as possible from one game to the next. 

[eroeru]

AdamJenson wrote...


Does combat, be it gun or sword-based, need to be standout? 

 


Yes. It needs to be fresh.
The Witcher, for example, delivered.

AdamJenson wrote... 
  Find a system you like to use in your games and stick with it so there is zero learning curve as much as possible from one game to the next. 

The existence of a learning curve is a non-existent problem. It SHOULD NOT be an issue. Or at least with CDPR.

(btw, those examples you gave were for sequels - but this here will be a brand new IP. A brand new IP needs to stand out and be fresh)

[AdamJenson]

eroeru wrote...

AdamJenson wrote...


Does combat, be it gun or sword-based, need to be standout? 

 


Yes. It needs to be fresh.
The Witcher, for example, delivered.

AdamJenson wrote... 
  Find a system you like to use in your games and stick with it so there is zero learning curve as much as possible from one game to the next. 

The existence of a learning curve is a non-existent problem. It SHOULD NOT be an issue. Or at least with CDPR.

(btw, those examples you gave were for sequels - but this here will be a brand new IP. A brand new IP needs to stand out and be fresh)

Learning the controls of a game is always an issue.  They have to think about it and try to make them as human-friendly as possible.  There are 128 keys on a PC keyboard.  That doesn't mean you use just any mix of them to act as game controls.  There's a reason why on MOST games "W" means move forward, "A" is go left, "D" is go right, and "S" is go backwards.  They work and are so well known and used that if you change it up you cause problems.  If you change it up every time you produce a new game you produce BIGGER problems. 

The controls need to standardized.  They ARE for a console because you only have a handful of buttons to mess with anyway so they have to have discipline (developers) and can't go crazy with new wizbang actions and silly remapping of controls.  

Combat is RARELY the unique item in a game.  It cannot be because combat is a fairly tightly defined set of actions.  Sword or gun you can only use it in a very limited set of ways and it is best if you standardize your games so people can jump right in and play it without having to study and practice.  No need to dress up combat/fighting.  It is all done.

[AdamJenson]

eroeru wrote...

AdamJenson wrote...


Does combat, be it gun or sword-based, need to be standout? 

 


Yes. It needs to be fresh.
The Witcher, for example, delivered.

AdamJenson wrote... 
  Find a system you like to use in your games and stick with it so there is zero learning curve as much as possible from one game to the next. 

The existence of a learning curve is a non-existent problem. It SHOULD NOT be an issue. Or at least with CDPR.

(btw, those examples you gave were for sequels - but this here will be a brand new IP. A brand new IP needs to stand out and be fresh)

Out of ALL the games out three, explain, please how shooting anything or anyone with a gun can ever be "fresh".  How can punching someone be "fresh".  The problem I see is that to stand out they go STUPID.  Hence you get ridiculous fightnig as in Mortal Kombat and other such games where people are fighting by doing impossible or patently ridiculous flips and jumps and spins and whoops and nonsense that would actually get you killed.  Think of Indiana Jones.  Guy comes at him swining his sword all fancy and prancy...you just look at 'em like their idiots, pull out your gun an shoot 'em.  Fresh = silly and campy which actually doesn't = fresh.  It just = silly and ridiculous.  

[eroeru]

AdamJenson wrote...

*snip for on-topic*

Combat is RARELY the unique item in a game.  It cannot be because combat is a fairly tightly defined set of actions.  Sword or gun you can only use it in a very limited set of ways and it is best if you standardize your games so people can jump right in and play it without having to study and practice.  No need to dress up combat/fighting.  It is all done.

No. It's a bit unique in every game. As I said, The Witcher is a fine example of a well-done unique combat-system.

And about that example with mortal combat, well, many people like the game. And it doesn't really stand out, actually. (though the originals did so, and were better for it)

[Mylia Stenetch]

Tirigon wrote...

That's why. You people defend Borderlands but cant even decide whether it is an RPG with some shooter elements or a shooter with some RPG elements.

It is a FPS with RPG elements. Which means it is under the broad genre of an action-rpg.

[Mercannis]

I dont need to be convinced , its CDPR so i will just throw my money at them soon as its available.

[naughty99]

Great new interview about the Cyberpunk2020 game, with Marcin Iwinski, Adam Badowski and Michal Platow-Gilewski of CD Projekt.

Q:In Cyberpunk's case, how are you approaching the series' existing pen-and-paper rule set? Is it influencing the way you approach design?

MI: We are not limiting ourselves to using a certain set of rules, but rather we're looking at it as a general [guideline]. We'll use it as much as it makes sense, and of course we'll really rely on the support of [Cyberpunk creator] Mike Pondsmith.

He's a game designer who's also knowledgeable about computer games, and he's been really excited to work with us. We think we can really use his expertise to the advantage of the game, and that's something we didn't have with The Witcher. He's consulting with us on a fairly regular basis.

Your studio has always emphasized storytelling, and it seems like Cyberpunk's protagonist will vary a bit from how you approached things in The Witcher. Whereas the Witcher series used Geralt, who had his own pre-conceived biases and opinions, Cyberpunk is letting players customize their characters a bit more. Will this change the way you approachCyberpunk's narrative?

AB: Well, ideally, we don't want to change anything. The most exciting element is to blend character customization with a story-driven game. It's a challenge, but we're really excited.

Q: So how do you plan to overcome those challenges? Something like Skyrim, for example, has a lot of customization, but its story is less about the character and more about the world.The Witcher's story, meanwhile, really played up Geralt's history, his personality, and things like that.

AB: We're not really sure yet. I mean, there's no one true workflow when making RPG games, but we’re trying to combine things, we're mixing different ideas. But we've been very impressed withSkyrim, particularly in how they've made that game and its content so diverse.

MI: In terms of what you can expect from us, you can expect a rich story, and there won't be any easy shortcuts that say, "Hey! You're this unknown guy..." You know?

AB: The idea for Cyberpunk is quite simple. You have this universe... and it goes back to what you were asking before. The license aggregates all ideas about cyberpunk as a genre. It has elements of Blade Runner, it's futuristic, but it's also a bit retro... there's almost everything in this universe. We have a lot of experience with storytelling after making The Witcher 1 and The Witcher 2, and we have to use it. We're not going to make compromises when it comes to that, and I think what we're doing will surprise our fans.

[Seeker Sparrow]

They've just started working on this game right? Possible 2014 release maybe, the way they're talking we may end up getting a huge game in a sci-fi universe which is always welcome and I want to them to spend every crucial minute building this game. No rushing out to release for this one.