ANOTHER GREAT INTERVIEW to Adam Badowski, about Cyberpunk/Witcher 3 and other stuff.
This is a transcript from an interview by Polish podcast
Masa Kultury. The interview goes at length about the Witcher 3, Cyberpunk 2077, CDProject as a growing studio, the challenges and future of the RPG genre, Studios with a corporate or uncompromising artistic mindset, Mike Pondsmith as a character, male and female character creation for CP2077, etc.
The translation is the heroic effort of Kodaemon, an old witcher forumite, who translated it and transcripted it, which took him HOURS to do The actual interview is longer, Im just copying the esentials and stuff
related to Cyberpunk 2077. The link to the complete interview is
http://en.thewitcher....75#entry959275You should go read it, and thank Kodaemon
"personally"... This kinds of things are what make a good and friendly
community strong. 
For those who don't know, Adam Badowski was Art Director for The
Witcher, Project Lead for The Witcher 2, and now is Managing Director,
and as such is overseeing both future CDProjekts' titles.
Enjoy. )
MK:
You mentioned having a big team - how many people are working on
The Witcher 3? I guess we'll talk more about it later, but I suspect
work at the studio is organised in such a way that you can take a
breather and work on Cyberpunk for a bit when you're too tired of
fantasy... but what size is the core team, how many people are working
on TW3 right now?AB: The Witcher 3 team itself is about 89 people, but there's also the
engine team of course which is already over 20 people, then there's QA
and so forth, and naturally some people work on both projects... But the
core of the Witcher 3 team is about 89 people.
MK:
And how does the Cyberpunk team compare to that? I'm wondering
which of these games is currently the more important one - I understand
that the hype for The Witcher 3 is greater than for Cyberpunk right now,
but it's also a gigantic world...AB: It depends on what you mean by important. The Witcher 3 is at a
different stage of production than Cyberpunk - Cyber punk is about
establishing a new brand... that kind of sounds bad, but it's about
making sure the game is unique, that it carries new ideas that will
really grip the audience, so we need to do a lot of experiments and
prototypes. The Witcher 3 is a lot more advanced as a project, so in
that sense it's more important, since it's coming out earlier. It's also
the continuation of the saga, so that's the difference. Both projects
are equally important really, they're the two hearts of the studio, we
have two hearts. But their dynamics are different, working on them looks
differently. One already has a lot of content ready, the other is more
about new types of gameplay, new story threads, establishing the whole
universe, the design bible...all fascinating stuff. I'm not saying
production itself is not fascinating, but the dynamics are different.
MK:
I understand. Tell me, since we're talking about technical
aspects of production, how does your experience with consoles look like?
I know you've had something of a rough ride there in the past, but
recently you performed really great with The Witcher 2, so what does
that mean for The Witcher 3 and Cyberpunk? Also, while you did perform
great, it was only for one console - one of my friend's still sobbing
quietly since he only has a PS3 and he forgot how to play on a PC, and
he's still sad about the announced Witcher for Playstation, which never
happened...AB: You have to look before you leap. We wanted to make the game for all
platforms, but, not to badmouth the PS3, or maybe badmouth our
abilities, whatever... We were convinced the PS3 would be a big
challenge for us in the case of The Witcher 2. Of course The Witcher 1
is a whole different story, that was a natively PC engine, so that was
out of the question, that's one of the reasons we invested in our own
technology, and it was a good choice. In the case of The Witcher 2, we
learned a lot, because we had a full development phase for consoles, the
studio changed a lot during that time regarding our internal
procedures, we now have good knowledge from our cooperation with
Microsoft and the publisher. So, now is the time to start on the next
platform, Sony already announced us as one of the studios developing for
their next console...
MK:
The PS4 seems a bit like a PC, so it will probably be easier to work with, right?
AB: It's a bit of a war of ambitions. Our greatest ambition is to making
games, making content. I mean, it's nice to be a studio with a strong
technology, but you have to remember how important the tools are. You
have to do everything at once, you need to develop the tools for your
technology, you have to develop the engine for your technology, you have
to improve the visuals and you have to create the content, which is the
most impoortant, since ultimately it's the game that matters. We're not
Ubisoft and we'll never be, we want to be a studio that will never be
larger than 200 people. We've all been through a lot here, we don't want
to be a bloated corporation, we want to avoid the corporate model at
all cost, so we'll never be able to afford making an engine first,
finalizing it and only then starting to work on the game. That's fine in
theory, but in reality, while staying independent -because we want to
keep our independence- you have to make a profit, you have to make stuff
that's good. Our aim is to make 90+ rated games, whether it's
Metacritic or any other system - I don't want to discuss Metacritic
here. This means at some point you have to choose - do you want to
develop for the PS3, or do you want to put your strengtgh into
developing the next Witcher. There are always these choices.It would be
great if we could always do everything at once and do it good, but as I
said - big corporations can afford that, EA, Ubisoft, who sometimes have
real slaughers behind the scenes, closing studios so they can finish
other project instead, stuff like that. We're different, we want to be a
small or medium sized, independent studio, independent creatively,
independent financially, so we need to manage our studio wisely. We
won't be able to achieve everything, so we have to focus on what's most
important. For me, that's content, that's games.
-----------------------------------------------------
MK:
You know, I'm only asking (referring to last question in part 1,
about Andrzej Sapkowski - Kodaemon) because I wonder what approach do
you prefer as developers, since as far as I know, Mike Pondsmith is
working more closely with you on Cyberpunk 2077, right?AB: Yes, Mike Pondsmith is working more closely with us, but he's the
guy who created the p&p system, that's over 40 sourcebooks - not all
of them are from Talsorian, of course, but most of them are. That's
Cyberpunk 2020, also Cyberpunk 3.0 which didn't realy stick... Anyway,
Mike Pondsmith created the game mechanics, so not only the story, the
other way around even he mostly did the mechanics for the game, and
addons for that mechanic. Mike Pondsmith also worked at Microsoft,
making games, so he knows what it's all about. This is why it was
natural to enter a dialogue, since we're speaking the same language, the
language of game developers, and we decided to use that. Of course, we
have creative freedom just like with The Witcher, but Mike Pondsmith is
sort of an advisor to us, who solved a lot of things in the game
mechanics himself, since they're based on the mechanics of the pen &
paper game. And that's great, because we have a largely unified,
coherent RPG system thanks to that. There were some things that were
questionable in terms of balance in the game, so we fixed that, and some
things were not possible to carry over without breaking the player's
experience, for example shooting has to be based on the player's skill
somewhat, not just the character's, so we had to rework that, and of
course Mike Pondsmith was indispensable. So, that's why the cooperation
looks different here. Andrzej Sapkowski is the creator of the Witcher
universe, a writer, so that's the level we could work with him on, but
not on the gameplay and implementation level.
MK:
You mentioned player skill in the context of Cyberpunk, that's
interesting since it's different from The Witcher, where stats are quite
important. Skill too, of course, but...
AB: It's the same in The Witcher and Cyberpunk, it's just that mechanics
of shooting are different than mechanics of swordfighting. We chose a
system for The Witcher where the game helps the player choose a good
sequence, that is, it has to look good since Geralt is a master
swordsman who does all these pirouettes and cat-like moves, so the game
helps at that. Of course, it's all based on RPG stats, but when it comes
to shooting, it's bad when you're aiming at the gead, and it's an
obvious headshot from 1 meter away, but the game says "nope, the stats
say something else". These are the problems that you have to find good
solutions for, to eat the cookie and have the cookie, and that's what
we've been working on with Mike Pondsmith.
MK:
Since we're talking about Mike Pondsmith, I really, really wanted
to ask you... Since you're working together, maybe you could get him to
record some lines for the game, because, you know, that little
introduction movie where he talks about Cyberpunk... Damn his voice is
amazingAB: Yeah, Barry White, right? Of course we're going to do that. (laughs)
MK:
That's great! (laughs)AB: Guy should be singing blues songs.
MK:
About Cyberpunk, maybe you could reveal what your idea for the
game is. I mean of course it's going to be a story-based game, with a
lot of moral choices, we can be sure of that. But I'm wondering about
the hero, do you like the idea of a precisely characterised protagonist
like Geralt or would you like to try something else, have more freedom
in character creation, which is really the basis of most RPG systems,
including Cyberpunk.AB: Right. Of course, we will have character creation allowing both for
female as well as male characters. In Mike Pondsmiths game, the
character's backstory was really important - there were all these
statistics, but that's where you started with, the backstory. Let's say
you had two brothers, and one of these brothers could be used by the GM
at some point in the game to make the story harder or weirder - the
character was always important in the context of their past experiences.
Of course it won't be Geralt, since Geralt is very well characterised
in the short stories and novels, but it's still important to chreate a
character who has some story behind them, some past misdeeds and
experiences that influence the story that we'll be weaving later. This
kind of sums up our approach. With Cyberpunk, we don't want to do this
sort of laboratory cyberpunk, you know, running around labs and fighting
rogue AIs, since that's not really that interesting. We want to have
more Kingpin-like moments, I don't know if you remember that game...
MK:
Sure.AB: So, these street level stories that bring us closer to the
character. Of course, there's always this epic moment, but we don't want
it to be a game where we mow through hordes of corporate lab security
guards. We want to explore other themes than that.
MK:
So what more can you tell us about the gameplay? I understand
that it's still somewhat far away, that The Witcher 3 will be out first
and it's going to be big, but sci-fi was always closer to my heart and
cyberpunk excites a bit more. What can you say about the game?
AB: I can say that there will be a lot of guns. Very well-made guns. (laughs)
MK:
You don't have to be so specific (laughs). Will we be able to be a metal star?AB: Ha, that's great, isn't it?
MK:
That's one of the things I associate with Cyberpunk. (laughs)
AB: Johnny Silverhand, right... We do have to tackle all those Cyberpunk
staples, even those which kind of became obsolete, we have to tackle
them too...
MK:
So if someone really wants to learn something about Cyberpunk,
they should just research the pen & paper RPG, right? They might
find a lot of hints regarding your game.AB: They can always come here and work for us on Cyberpunk. (laughs)
MK:
It's good that you mentioned that, because that's my next
question. How does that look like from your perspective? You say you're a
small or medium sized studio, but you also mention 200 people...
AB: Well, a lot of things have recently happened in game development -
new financing models, new direct methods of reaching gamers, digital
platforms have gained a lot of importance and I think they'll soon be
dominant, and all of this allowed smaller studios to make games that are
based more on gameplay, smaller, made by smaller teams, with a smaller
risk factor than us. We're interested in grand stories, we want, at
least for now, to tell great stories, and that's what we find fun,
that's what integrates the team. This type of games is usually made by
big companies, we're a smaller one in comparison but I think we made a
name for ourselves in the world of game dev and we have a recognizable
brand. Still we're a smaller team than the great industry players who
make these AAA games. Of course there are smaller studios that make
other types of games, but I position us among the bigger storytellers of
epicness (laughs)
MK:
I'm asking about the size of the team because when we talked to
Tomek Bagiński, he said that in his line of work, there's still not
enough people in Poland who qualify for that. Do you have the same
problem?AB: I'm going to make a rather unpopular statement now - we started to
draw a lot of people from abroad. People who want to work for the same
money, in the same conditions, who travel from project to project. This
also gave us a huge boost of knowledge about game development. We've got
people who worked on the latest Star Wars, on Alpha Protocol, on
Splinter Cell, we've really got leading specialists from the west, so at
one point it turned out that that the really small Polish market that
doesn't allow for fast, dynamic growth, is no longer blocking us that
much. Of course, it's great to develop our home game dev market, and
that's always a positive future investment, but the internal studio
dynamics have changed a bit, there's about 30, 40 people from abroad,
and I think it was a good decision, because we received a great deal of
know-how. On the other hand, we're always facing some problems, as
anyone. The biggest of course is finding programmers - they're like
diamonds, there are very few who are able to do great things, especially
in game dev, which is not that lucrative compared to, say, business
applications. Programmers probably earn more there, so we're looking for
people we can afford, but who at the same time are passionate about
games. And that's always a problem, so - if you're a programmer who'd
like to work for CD Projekt, be my guest, it's always good to get new
people for that team.
MK:
When I talked to you about a year ago, I think, maybe a bit
earlier, before the games were announced and The Witcher 2 for consoles
was still in production, it was obvious that CD Projekt was starting to
grow dynamically, you were starting to look for people to work for RED,
and you were focusing largely on people with a passion. I understand you
brought some people from abroad, but on the other hand, you're still
hunting for passionate people, and it's possible for someone to come to
you, try their luck, say "I want to make games, I have experience in
this and this", or even no experience at all... Did you manage to get
some good people this way?AB: Yeah. Younger generations have great will for trying out new things,
they don't limit themselves like the older generations. When I was
starting on game dev, it did exist in Poland already, but now there's
really a lot of studios, both bigger and smaller ones, and you can also
try doing things on your own. The older generations had this sort of
block, "OK, I don't know anything about this, games are made by someone
else, I don't know who... aliens probably" and so on. Young people don't
think like that anymore, they try, they send application letters to
polish studios and international ones, and many of them succeed, since
you'll always succeed if you try long and hard enough. And that's great.
We're not closing ourselves away, we don't want to work only with
veterans. Of course, working with veterans is always nice since they
bring their own knowledge with them, while with beginner developers you
need to put a lot of work initially to give them your own knowledge...
But still, passion always helps creativity, and game development is 100%
about creativity, it's not IT as it's sometimes qualified in Poland,
it's entertainment, it's a creative industry. You need new energy, new
ideas, inner strength and a will to create.
MK:
Considering all that growth, your studio getting bigger and the
games gaining more recognition, can you allow yourselves to, as you
said, get some experienced programmers from abroad, or are you still
thinking, at this scale, in terms of local, polish patriotism? I mean,
The Witcher 3, The Witcher in general, is one of Poland's best export
products. (laughs)AB: We got a lot a lot of applications from the west, we get
applications from the best people, with really great projects in their
resumees, like people who worked on the first Deus Ex, and that really
brings a great deal of knowledge to the studio. We do value being from
Poland, a bit restless, hungry for challenges, not taking the easy way. I
think the problem of long established, experienced studios is that
they've been forced into corporate slavery. Take Bioware, I think at
some point they just lost all interest, at least the studio heads...
MK:
...And they left to open a brewery, I heard. At least one of them. (laughs)
AB: If you're talking about Ray and Greg, then yeah, they were obviously
burnt out. And that's why I value the wildness here in Poland, this is
still the beginning here. Game development is decades old now, but it's
still this fun terra incognita here and a lot of people see it as such
so they're not afraid to experiment, and I think it's a very good thing.
But yes, we do get experienced devs from abroad and as I said, this
brought breath of fresh air to the studio in a big way.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
MK:
Wrapping up now, tell us, Adam, when will you be ready to show anything new regarding The Witcher 3 or Cyberpunk?AB: I think I can promise we'll show something for The Witcher 3 at E3, and Cyberpunk... we'll see.
MK:
At which conference? Sony or Microsoft? (laughs) OK, forget it, I
didn't ask. One more thing - I remember for the Witcher 2, you stressed
many times that the game would not just be suited for core players, but
also for people that just wanted to play it for the story, for
non-gamers to experience it. I got reminded about that when you
mentioned Telltale Games, because their games are like that, they're
more experiences. You make some choices now and then, but that's it. Do
you think about the new games like that also? Cyberpunk, The Witcher 3
as stressless experiences?AB: You don't have to break the game to achieve that, it's a matter of
balancing the difficulty and, for example, having more info in the
interface, Telltale games for example have these optional hints, and
different difficylty levels. In The Witcher, you can achieve that
without neutering the game of important elements. You just have to make
the game easier, then you just go in a straight line, stopping at the
key story choices. As I said, story is paramount for us. Personally, I
never liked games like Tetris, based solely on gameplay, I always needed
that deeper layer, adventure, that's what I expect from games, great
adventures. So, that's paramount for us as a studio.
MK:
Well, we're expecting great adventures too then. I hope we can
talk to you again some day, maybe in a year or a year and a half, after
the release of The Witcher 3. I hope you won't be running away from CD
Projekt like some developers have been running away from some studios
lately... Seems everyone's getting burnt out these days. Last year
especially. But you're still here, right?AB: Of course, I'm staying, I still have a lot of things to do! (laughs)
Modifié par Drizzt ORierdan, 12 avril 2013 - 06:28 .
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This sounds so great. Will be interesting to see how personality and style will influence things.
