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New Sci-fi sandbox RPG from CDPR is coming! It's called Cyberpunk 2077.


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#101
Cutlass Jack

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slimgrin wrote...

I'm gonna ****** people off here, but don't you guys realize that what makes the Witcher special is that he's a predetermined character!? It's MUCH easier to do blank slate. Most RPG's do blank slate.


Um no. Its much easier to do a predetermined character. It less effort to make things work if you don't have to take the player's creation into account. If CDPR wants to impress me as an RPG developer they need to show they can work their magic when the player gets to create the protaganist.

Not that I'm at all suggesting they need to stay up nights trying to impress me. I'm sure they've got better things to do with their time. But if they do make a cyberpunk rpg with a fully creatable character I'm sure I'll be pre-ordering it. If it has a set protaganist, I'll probably give it a pass...unless the character is so close to someone I'd make that I can't tell the difference.

But based on Mohawk guy, I'm thinking thats not likely.Image IPB

#102
naughty99

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I've been playing Skyrim with Arthmoor's Live Another Life mod and it's a lot of fun to have so many wildly different character origins available. It certainly enhances the replay value and I'm particularly fond of the "surprise me" option.

#103
Cutlass Jack

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naughty99 wrote...

I've been playing Skyrim with Arthmoor's Live Another Life mod and it's a lot of fun to have so many wildly different character origins available. It certainly enhances the replay value and I'm particularly fond of the "surprise me" option.


That sounds kind of awesome. I'll have to give that a try next time I'm back into Skyrim. Thanks for the link.

#104
Giggles_Manically

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Premade characters like Adam Jensen, Geralt, and Mike Thorton can work since they let the story be much more specific than other games.

Also a bit more personal since you hear the characters name, and can define how that character works.

At the same time blank slates work in some places better since it allows more freedom in how you play.

The Courier from Fallout new Vegas is a blank slate done well.
However it suffers from no one using your name, and at times you can feel a bit disconnected.

I mean playing as Jensen you felt for him, and cheered him on in the face of what happened, because he never asked for this. Where as the Courier felt a bit more stale in the face of what was happening.
Added to that a defined character with a voice feels more alive then a blank slate without a voice.

It depends really on execution and setting I guess.
Part of what made Alpha Protocol fun was how Thorton was malleable as a character yet still relatable. Some limits are annoying if they dont let you RP like you want but some sacrifices must be made.

Both sides have good and bad points, I guess.

#105
slimgrin

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Cutlass Jack wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

I'm gonna ****** people off here, but don't you guys realize that what makes the Witcher special is that he's a predetermined character!? It's MUCH easier to do blank slate. Most RPG's do blank slate.


Um no. Its much easier to do a predetermined character. It less effort to make things work if you don't have to take the player's creation into account. If CDPR wants to impress me as an RPG developer they need to show they can work their magic when the player gets to create the protaganist.

Not that I'm at all suggesting they need to stay up nights trying to impress me. I'm sure they've got better things to do with their time. But if they do make a cyberpunk rpg with a fully creatable character I'm sure I'll be pre-ordering it. If it has a set protaganist, I'll probably give it a pass...unless the character is so close to someone I'd make that I can't tell the difference.

But based on Mohawk guy, I'm thinking thats not likely.Image IPB


How can it possibly be easier to write a character with zero personality and player options (Skyrim, DA:O) than to write a character who has a personality and still offers player options?

Modifié par slimgrin, 30 mai 2012 - 04:46 .


#106
Guest_Puddi III_*

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Yeah, not digging Mohawk Man. But then, I'm prejudiced against CDPR in general.

#107
naughty99

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slimgrin wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

I'm gonna ****** people off here, but don't you guys realize that what makes the Witcher special is that he's a predetermined character!? It's MUCH easier to do blank slate. Most RPG's do blank slate.


Um no. Its much easier to do a predetermined character. It less effort to make things work if you don't have to take the player's creation into account. If CDPR wants to impress me as an RPG developer they need to show they can work their magic when the player gets to create the protaganist.

Not that I'm at all suggesting they need to stay up nights trying to impress me. I'm sure they've got better things to do with their time. But if they do make a cyberpunk rpg with a fully creatable character I'm sure I'll be pre-ordering it. If it has a set protaganist, I'll probably give it a pass...unless the character is so close to someone I'd make that I can't tell the difference.

But based on Mohawk guy, I'm thinking thats not likely.Image IPB


How can it possibly be easier to write a character with zero personality and player options (Skyrim, DA:O) than to write a character who has a personality and still offers player options?


It would seem to be easier to structure a narrative around a predefined character.

I imagine developing a narrative around a more customizable character presents all sorts of additional challenges. It's not simply a matter of writing the lines of dialogue.

Modifié par naughty99, 30 mai 2012 - 04:53 .


#108
Cutlass Jack

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slimgrin wrote...

How can it possibly be easier to write a character with zero personality and player options (Skyrim, DA:O) than to write a character who has a personality and still offers player options?


Do I really have to explain how its easier to write a predetermined character with a set personality over a player created character that could have any personality or attributes? Within the context of the same game I'm referring.

edit: Naughty99 gets what I mean.

Modifié par Cutlass Jack, 30 mai 2012 - 04:55 .


#109
Kaiser Arian XVII

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What is the difference between Cyberpunk genre and Post-Fallout genre?

I also dislike punks, the future ones are 'must die'.

#110
slimgrin

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Cutlass Jack wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

How can it possibly be easier to write a character with zero personality and player options (Skyrim, DA:O) than to write a character who has a personality and still offers player options?


Do I really have to explain how its easier to write a predetermined character with a set personality over a player created character that could have any personality or attributes? Within the context of the same game I'm referring.

edit: Naughty99 gets what I mean.


Yes, by all means explain. But keep in mind Geralt is not a set personality, but a dynamic one that the player shapes. Predetermined does not equal static.

#111
ohnotherancor

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Sajji wrote...

This is wild speculation and conjecture, but let's for a minute imagine the man in the picture is the main protagonist and PC in this upcoming game, and he's voiced. Possibly CDPR can allow cosmetic customization to give players just that little bit of personalization, such as hair color, piercings or facial tattoos.

Would anybody object to that for a new protagonist in a new IP?


I don't know if "object" is the right word, but personally I'm tired of playing straight white men all the time (when the choice isn't given to me, that is). And that amount of customization won't really do anything for me. It's pretty much the equivalent of changing Geralt's hairstyle in TW2.

I like the Witcher series a lot, but I'll be much more interested in this project if CDP announces the possibility of playing as a female protagonist.

Just my two cents.

#112
Cutlass Jack

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slimgrin wrote...

Yes, by all means explain. But keep in mind Geralt is not a set personality, but a dynamic one that the player shapes. Predetermined does not equal static.


Well he was set enough that I found him unlikable. And one I couldn't make likeable. Which in turn kept me from enjoying the game because I just couldn't connect with the character I was stuck with.

But that aside, just consider for a moment if you could choose Geralt's gender. Just that one thing. Now think about how much more work would be suddenly be involved to account for that. And that's not even full character creation. The more options you give the player the more work is involved to cover it.

#113
Costin_Razvan

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I imagine developing a narrative around a more customizable character presents all sorts of additional challenges. It's not simply a matter of writing the lines of dialogue.


Which is why I would rather CDPR focus on other things then something I consider irrelevant or for them to **** it up. Some companies have done customizable characters, but most haven't.

Personally I hate blank slate protagonists.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 30 mai 2012 - 07:20 .


#114
Cyberarmy

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Now we have "one" screeny, time passes much more slowly....
Its just 8 hours more till they throw us some bone :(

Since we are not getting lots of Cyberpunkish games im thrilled a lot about this conference!

Modifié par Cyberarmy, 30 mai 2012 - 07:29 .


#115
kirvingtwo

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Sajji wrote...
This is wild speculation and conjecture, but let's for a minute imagine the man in the picture is the main protagonist and PC in this upcoming game, and he's voiced. Possibly CDPR can allow cosmetic customization to give players just that little bit of personalization, such as hair color, piercings or facial tattoos.

Would anybody object to that for a new protagonist in a new IP?

Yes I would object, especially in a new IP.  I've accepted that CDPR revolved the Witcher games around Geralt as he is depicted in the novels and I'm currently playing the first game and enjoying it.  (Though I do think Geralt is a bit of an ass no matter what dialogue choices get picked.) 
However, set male protagonists are a dime a dozen and it's boring and difficult for me to identify with them.  Ideally I'd like to see CDPR develop a fully customisable character in a cyberpunk world setting.  Failing that, then a set female protagoinist with cosmetic customisation or as a last possibility something like Hawke or Shepard.

#116
hangmans tree

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I guess I posted in the wrong thread :)

So here we go.

In cyberpunk you dont lose an arm, you sell it to instal cybernetic, to gain the edge. That is the spirit of CP, you allow to drill your head, you scratch at the bottom of the barrel to buy newest eyes from Mitsubichi or replace your skin for armour and enchance other senses, instal processors and all that jazz in you - loosing humanity at the same time which ends with cyber-psychosis ("I touch those sacks of fluid and they just... fall apart....")

I would love the elements of that humanity loss would they be ingame. To date no other game touched on the subject... all protagonists whose limbs were replaced (or you as a player add modifications) act as if nothing happened. DEHR licked the idea but "I didnt choose this" was really shallow and was my dissapointment with the game in that regard.

Transhumanism.
It does not have to be bleak. Looking for answers, ascending to new evolutionaryaspect and the struggle (internal and external alike) that comes with it.

I recommend Snow Crash or Diamond Age by Neal Stephenson. Post (Gibson) Cyberpunk. Great stuff. There are many other "cyberpunk" visions and they are many, in polish literature too. So when you all think about "canon" genres and characteristics CDPR can impress you yet.

Here in Poland we have our own culture and style, writers too you see ;) - Sapkowski and Witcher being one of them (with Lem being most known outside our borders methinks). So dont be so narrow in your definitions, you may be surprised.

Imagine CDPR doing something with gender RP elements like act II in TW2, a completely different levels and story branches dependant on your choice of gender. Now that would be ... something :] no?

#117
Aerevane

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Skelter192 wrote...

Seagloom wrote...
Also, magic > everything except advanced science and possibly firearms. :P


But there is so much fantasy!

And oh man go watch Blade Runner reguardless of the genre it's a fantastic film how could anyone not watch it?!

*Howls* and grabs white dove. Dis gonna be gud!

Still though, I really hope they don't come up with a predefined character. It's the reason I wasn't too excited about The Witcher 2.

Modifié par Aerevane, 30 mai 2012 - 08:10 .


#118
Rockworm503

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M U P P 3 T Z wrote...

I'm completely okay with a predetermined character, so long as we get to have influence over his/her motivations and decisions like we did with Geralt. The most important factor that I look for in a game is story, and I'm willing to forgo choosing hairstyle, eye color, etc. for a character who is more fleshed out in the sense that he/she has a history and relationships that already exist.. with me being placed in the driver's seat at that particular moment of time. I'd prefer that over a protagonist who I can shift and mold into whatever I want, but has no story, voice, etc.

What I mean to say is, I wouldn't mind being able to customize, but I'd be totally okay sacrificing that if a pre-determined character means a better story and more variety in consequences of choices made.


Honestly being able to make my character is so meaningless IMO.  Sure its fun when its there but how often does it really matter?  Either the options that are there are limited (Dragon Age) or its so superficial that its pointless (any game with a first person view) the last thing on my brain when deciding on a game is if I can make my own character.
90% of my games have predetermined characters.... Hell almost all of them have no choice in the dialog or story.  I'm used to watching cutscenes and just going along for the ride. 
I just find it baffling so many people put so much stock in how their character looks that they'll pass on really good games if they can't change what they look like... This especially with games where you never even see your character like The Elder Scrolls.
Too be honest the only time I've really gotten excited for it is with wrestling games.

Modifié par Rockworm503, 30 mai 2012 - 09:24 .


#119
Seagloom

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For me it isn't strictly about role-playing options. Being able to customize my character makes it easier to identify with them. Older games such as Baldur's Gate II offered few real branching paths. Role-playing basically amounted to good, evil, and mercenary. The PC was largely defined by the story to the point sex selection only had a minimal impact on the odd dialogue, and what romance options were available.

However, getting to choose a sex and skin tone made it much easier to connect with my BG heroine in a way I found profoundly important. I did not realize beforehand how big a deal it was to me until playing BG and Fallout. Up to that point I had only experienced JRPGs. While I enjoyed those, I always felt they interactive storybooks. The rigid linearity of their tales were a part of it, but it paled next to the unmalleability of those protagonists.

There are very few games where I can directly identify with a character either because they look nothing like me or people in my life, and(or) have a completely foreign personality and set of values.

I don't ignore games if those options aren't there. However, I always find getting to create my character enhances the feeling I'm playing a part in a story instead of watching it unfold from an omniscient vantage point.

I may not feel that way if there were more predefined characters I found it easier to identify with, but there aren't. It is what it is.

Modifié par Seagloom, 30 mai 2012 - 09:47 .


#120
Rockworm503

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I guess thats what I don't get. Identifying and connecting with a video game character has never been an issue. I never have and I doubt I ever will. I've liked and enjoyed characters and stories but I've never connected with them. Being able to change gender and skin tone doesn't change that fact.
So half the time I just make a silly or retarded looking character because eh why the hell not?

#121
Costin_Razvan

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Speaking about connecting to your character. The protagonists I've connected to the most are Geralt and Mike Thorton. More so then other protagonists. I do care a lot about my Shepard but I care more for Geralt and Thorton.

I despise the Warden, the Vault Dweller, the Courier and the Dovakiin. They mean nothing to me.

#122
Morroian

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Costin_Razvan wrote...

Speaking about connecting to your character. The protagonists I've connected to the most are Geralt and Mike Thorton. More so then other protagonists. I do care a lot about my Shepard but I care more for Geralt and Thorton.

I despise the Warden, the Vault Dweller, the Courier and the Dovakiin. They mean nothing to me.


How can you despise characters you essentially create yourself? 

#123
Costin_Razvan

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Because they are not characters, they are avatars.

#124
Rockworm503

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Thats because they are nothing.
How can you possibly connect with a voiceless mute who doesn't have a personality whatsoever? I understand the whole RP mentality needed to imagine what they would say and how but we're comparing actual written characters with actual characters with a voiceless proxy whose only purpose is to act on your behalf. Its like feeling a connection for my mouse and keyboard.

#125
Seagloom

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Costin_Razvan wrote...

Because they are not characters, they are avatars.


So what you are basically saying is you despise yourself? :P Or in the case of role-playing a character removed from yourself, your own ideas? :blink:

---

I think whether or not a blank slate protagonist succeeds has more to do with their connection to the world than whether or not they are predefined. I have never been too fond of Elder Scrolls protagonists due to those worlds feeling so static, and by extension, devoid of life. Whereas my characters in say, Arcanum, felt very much alive because the world acknowledged their existences in the subtlest and greatest ways throughout the game.

I do not actually consider characters such as the Warden blank slates at all despite some minor customization options. The way I see it there are two extremes. On one end we have a character such as Geralt. On the other is your usual Elder Scrolls protagonist. Closer to the middle are characters like the Nameless One, who are a bit more flexible in how they can be directed than a Geralt; but still leaning in that direction. Leaning slightly in the other direction towards an Elder Scrolls protagonist is a protagonist like the Warden.

To me what defines a character as predefined or blank slate is a combination of factors.

The majority of RPG characters fall somewhere in the middle. No matter how fluid or rigid creation and gameplay options are, a protagonist's role in a story is typically static save for a few brief divergences on miscellaneous quest branches. The only time I find real value in a predefined character is when it is truly their story such as was the case in Planescape: Torment. In a game like Alpha Protocol, I never had the feeling no one else could fill Michael Thorton's shoes at any point. Defined as that character was, he still came off as being a cipher for the player. I never thought he was his own person.

Given how few predefined characters I see used to their fullest in the manner of J.C. Denton or the Nameless One, I have even less reason to favor them. If anything, I see predefined characters handled better in games like Max Payne or Uncharted than I do RPGs. Because then the predefined character's strengths are fully taken advantage of instead of diluted to cater to player whim.

That being the case (in addition to what I wrote earlier), I don't see their appeal in an RPG any more than you guys see the appeal of a blank slate. I do see their potential. Although that is rarely satisfactorily utilized in my opinion.

Modifié par Seagloom, 30 mai 2012 - 11:40 .