147 réponses à ce sujet

[fchopin]

Nothing outside of the game should have any influence on the story unless it is included in the game.

As far as i am concerned if i don’t know about something that is not included in the game then i don’t want to know nor do i want the game to know.

[LOLandStuff]

I don't even have a Twitter account or spend time on it. Found out about a month later when someone made a topic on how lame that was.

[Ross42899]

No. Not everyone uses twitter, etc.

[Dean_the_Young]

wolfsite wrote...

Honestly it should happen in game or have messages of events in game.  Not everyone bothers with social media sites so many people may never know about what happens there and are left wondering what happenned with this person or X event.

Not everyone bothers with the books or the comics either. Not everyone bothers with all the things in the game, either.

'Some people won't look at it' isn't enough to disqualify.

It also is rather cheap, no offence, to have to go outside of the game to get info especially if it is an important part of the story.

How is it important?

Emily Wong was a two-bit side-quest giver in ME1, and barely a cameo in ME2. By what standard was her death important?

[AdamJenson]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

wolfsite wrote...

Honestly it should happen in game or have messages of events in game.  Not everyone bothers with social media sites so many people may never know about what happens there and are left wondering what happenned with this person or X event.

Not everyone bothers with the books or the comics either. Not everyone bothers with all the things in the game, either.

'Some people won't look at it' isn't enough to disqualify.

It also is rather cheap, no offence, to have to go outside of the game to get info especially if it is an important part of the story.

How is it important?

Emily Wong was a two-bit side-quest giver in ME1, and barely a cameo in ME2. By what standard was her death important?

Because she would have been a VASTLY superior and acceptable "embed" reporter on the normandy than that plasticine thing on offer.  

[AdamJenson]

Next, you will have to sign up for text updates on your cell phone to acquire the latest "canon" news for a game that should be 100% operable on a PC (or xbox, or PS3, etc) and not have to use up minutes, data, time, etc on a silly phone.

Twitter has its uses (I get science news updates, ACLU updates, political updates, etc) but for storytelling or fleshing out a computer game...no.

[Dean_the_Young]

AdamJenson wrote...

Because she would have been a VASTLY superior and acceptable "embed" reporter on the normandy than that plasticine thing on offer.  

And now we're on a subject completely irrelevant to the topic.

Jugding by posts like this and others in the thread, the issue isn't actually how a character is killed off outside of a game: out-of-game developments have been here for awhile. Heck, Cerberus Daily News was more influential to the plot and more relevant than Emily Wong's twitter death ever was.

The issue people actually have is combination of it being Emily Wong, and the presence of Diana Allers. If it had been, say, Giana Parsini, far fewer people would mind: people probably would have been laughing, even.

[AdamJenson]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AdamJenson wrote...

Because she would have been a VASTLY superior and acceptable "embed" reporter on the normandy than that plasticine thing on offer.  

And now we're on a subject completely irrelevant to the topic.

Jugding by posts like this and others in the thread, the issue isn't actually how a character is killed off outside of a game: out-of-game developments have been here for awhile. Heck, Cerberus Daily News was more influential to the plot and more relevant than Emily Wong's twitter death ever was.

The issue people actually have is combination of it being Emily Wong, and the presence of Diana Allers. If it had been, say, Giana Parsini, far fewer people would mind: people probably would have been laughing, even.

No.  The issue is twitter.  You do NOT write game stories, do not flesh them out, on the twit (or via text message on  phone nor via emailing list).  

Besides that, Wong would have been better than the DVD licker.  That's just a fact.  And a freebie.

Modifié par AdamJenson, 30 mai 2012 - 02:20 .

[SalsaDMA]

I don't use twitter.

I read books and play games. If something is said only on a temporary media like twitter I can't consider it canon. Leave storytelling to storytelling mediums, and news to newsmediums.

They want to tell something about the story, it need to happen in one of the storytelling mediums.

I can just imagine the leaps of logic you have to go through eventually to catch up with a story a few years from now if you need to have received random tweets, emails or even textmessages on your phone in order to actually have been told the story you were trying to get through your game...

Stop the craziness. Don't let commercial interests from corporate suits only intersted in your cash delude you into a false sense of what actual storytelling consists of.

[OdanUrr]

No way.

[Cyberstrike nTo]

bennyjammin79 wrote...

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

Darth Malice113 wrote...

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

Because none of the characters killed in the comics and novels were actually in the games, or even mentioned in the games,  IIRC only Greyson was mentioned briefly in Mass Effect 3. 

 

Not entirely true.

Arias Batarian lieutenant was killed off in the comics. I think his name was Anzo?

Was he even named in Mass Effect 2, I'm sorry but I can't recall but then again Aria has a LOT of batarians working for her.  

Yeah it's Anto. You get pretty familiar with him in ME2.

Other than a threating him when he scans you and Aria throwing a datapad at him he's nothing more than a background character. He never made any impact on the games's storyline, so his death means nothing in the game.

His role in the Mass Effect: Invasion comic book series made his character more important but in the end he's fourth string character, whose death meant more in the comic book than it would have in the games.

[RocketManSR2]

bennyjammin79 wrote...

So what if people don't have the books or comics? Are they not canon? Or is it just Twitter?

Comics are a bit sketchy when it comes to canon,  but books are an accepted media for adding to a story. The example I'll give are the Star Wars novels, some of which are damn good. They have been accepted as canon and the continuation of the movies.

[Dean_the_Young]

AdamJenson wrote...


No.  The issue is twitter.  You do NOT write game stories, do not flesh them out, on the twit (or via text message on  phone nor via emailing list). 

Sure you can. Just like they used Cerberus daily news, which was only marginally longer. It's unconventional, but an expanded universe is an expanded universe, and a promotional campaign can take many forms.

Besides that, Wong would have been better than the DVD licker.  That's just a fact.  And a freebie.

And, again, your passion betrays your issue. If the issue was twitter, your dislike of Diana Allers would be irrelevant.

[Dean_the_Young]

RocketManSR2 wrote...

bennyjammin79 wrote...

So what if people don't have the books or comics? Are they not canon? Or is it just Twitter?

Comics are a bit sketchy when it comes to canon,  but books are an accepted media for adding to a story. The example I'll give are the Star Wars novels, some of which are damn good. They have been accepted as canon and the continuation of the movies.

There's nothing sketchy about comics. Comics have been a story-telling medium for decades. It is simply a combination of text and imagery.

[Dean_the_Young]

SalsaDMA wrote...

I don't use twitter.

I read books and play games. If something is said only on a temporary media like twitter I can't consider it canon. Leave storytelling to storytelling mediums, and news to newsmediums.

All story mediums are effectively temporary. All forms of data storage break, deteriorate, or get lost.

They want to tell something about the story, it need to happen in one of the storytelling mediums.

That would be called 'reading.'

I can just imagine the leaps of logic you have to go through eventually to catch up with a story a few years from now if you need to have received random tweets, emails or even textmessages on your phone in order to actually have been told the story you were trying to get through your game...

Whoah, boy. Let's back up a second here.

First, let's have the wonderful internet invention of 'archives.' As in, people who would have stored such things. That's what happened with Cerberus Daily News, for example.

Second, that's an issue you have with EVERY intellectual property that has multiple product. If you come to the Mass Effect franchise in a decade, you'll also have to hunt down the books, the comics, and the various games. In a decade, those might be just a little hard to find as well.

Third, what vital part of the story is missing that isn't in the game? Quantum entanglement devices are handled in the game. The Reaper invasion of Earth is the first level. The only information of note is Emily Wong's death... and she is irrelevant to the story of Mass Effect. She never has been a plot-moving character: even in ME1, she was completely unrelated to The Story.

Stop the craziness. Don't let commercial interests from corporate suits only intersted in your cash delude you into a false sense of what actual storytelling consists of.

Storytelling is anything that conveys a story, regardless of the medium. You can tell stories verbally, by pictures, by art, or letters.

[RocketManSR2]

How long until it isn't just minor players in a game who are killed on Twitter, though? I created this poll and topic to let BioWare see what the general opinion is of using social media as storytelling material. The majority answer is "no." Despite one particular poster being argumentative and even offensive, the discussion has been fairly civil.

[AdamJenson]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AdamJenson wrote...


No.  The issue is twitter.  You do NOT write game stories, do not flesh them out, on the twit (or via text message on  phone nor via emailing list). 

Sure you can. Just like they used Cerberus daily news, which was only marginally longer. It's unconventional, but an expanded universe is an expanded universe, and a promotional campaign can take many forms.

Besides that, Wong would have been better than the DVD licker.  That's just a fact.  And a freebie.

And, again, your passion betrays your issue. If the issue was twitter, your dislike of Diana Allers would be irrelevant.

I'm not saying they cannot use the twit or whatever at all, I'm saying they cannot go around (and keep players happy) adding/changing/advancing the story of a game OUTSIDE the game and exclusively via these other cutesy useless toys.  If it shows up in the twit, and it is supposed to actually add to or change something in the actual game, then it better show up in the game too because, ultimately, it is about the game.  All that stuff doesn't exist at all if not for the game.  The GAME is the focus of ALL of it and cannot be treated as a mere follow-on.

[Raizo]

Hell No.

[Mr Zoat2]

Nothing is canon unless I personally approve of it. Executor Pallin died in ME1.  ME3 isn't quite finished yet, but will be really good when it is.

Modifié par Mr Zoat2, 30 mai 2012 - 06:28 .

[SalsaDMA]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

I don't use twitter.

I read books and play games. If something is said only on a temporary media like twitter I can't consider it canon. Leave storytelling to storytelling mediums, and news to newsmediums.

All story mediums are effectively temporary. All forms of data storage break, deteriorate, or get lost.

They want to tell something about the story, it need to happen in one of the storytelling mediums.

That would be called 'reading.'

I can just imagine the leaps of logic you have to go through eventually to catch up with a story a few years from now if you need to have received random tweets, emails or even textmessages on your phone in order to actually have been told the story you were trying to get through your game...

Whoah, boy. Let's back up a second here.

First, let's have the wonderful internet invention of 'archives.' As in, people who would have stored such things. That's what happened with Cerberus Daily News, for example.

Second, that's an issue you have with EVERY intellectual property that has multiple product. If you come to the Mass Effect franchise in a decade, you'll also have to hunt down the books, the comics, and the various games. In a decade, those might be just a little hard to find as well.

Third, what vital part of the story is missing that isn't in the game? Quantum entanglement devices are handled in the game. The Reaper invasion of Earth is the first level. The only information of note is Emily Wong's death... and she is irrelevant to the story of Mass Effect. She never has been a plot-moving character: even in ME1, she was completely unrelated to The Story.

Stop the craziness. Don't let commercial interests from corporate suits only intersted in your cash delude you into a false sense of what actual storytelling consists of.

Storytelling is anything that conveys a story, regardless of the medium. You can tell stories verbally, by pictures, by art, or letters.

I seriously disagree.

If a story is being told in a medium, I should get the story from that medium. I shouldn't have go digging through a dozen of different mediums and subscribe to various stuff just to get the story I was supposed to be getting from the first medium.

If I sit and tell a story verbally, and then tell them at some point: "Oh.. btw, if you want to know what happened to character X, you need to subscribe to my twitter account, give me your phone number for your mobile and your email address. Oh, and you still won't actually get the story I was telling you just now unless you visit these webpages as well..." I would be laughed at. Not only is it extremely poor storytelling that breaks immersion as much as it can be broken, but it borders a disregard for the actual story as well as the medium I was actually telling the story in originally.

And your comment about "all mediums being temproary" is a fallacy. By technical terms you could claim everything is temporary as the universe slowly advances to it's inevitable demise. In normal day perceptions, though, having a game (or book) is a more permanent state of holding information than having a random message in your e-mail tray or on a server that needs to flush messages every now and then to keep within server limits. Same goes for the spoken word, really. Yeah, it's a timehonored storytelling medium, but when you consider stories that have only been passed on through verbal recountings and compare them to stories that have been etched down on paper you should notice that the verbal ones ocasionally change through no active work save poor memory on behalf of the recounter.

So someone saying stuff without putting it into the game or books isn't worth the seconds spent saying it as far as storytelling accuracy goes. Only when actively added into the media that proper store and retell the stories, do they become canon.

[bennyjammin79]

Whether or not a person feels it should or shouldn't be canon is silly because well, it is: click 

Several other things:

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

Other than a threating him when he scans you and Aria throwing a datapad at him he's nothing more than a background character. He never made any impact on the games's storyline, so his death means nothing in the game.

You're also forgetting the Packages for Ish sidequest. You're right, Anto makes no impact on the game storyline. Neither does Emily Wong.

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

His role in the Mass Effect: Invasion comic book series made his character more important but in the end he's fourth string character, whose death meant more in the comic book than it would have in the games.

The EXACT same thing can be said of Emily Wong. Her Twitter death utilized the character more than the previous 2 games did. COMBINED.

AdamJenson wrote...

Next, you will have to sign up for text updates on your cell phone to acquire the latest "canon" news for a game that should be 100% operable on a PC (or xbox, or PS3, etc) and not have to use up minutes, data, time, etc on a silly phone.

Twitter has its uses (I get science news updates, ACLU updates, political updates, etc) but for storytelling or fleshing out a computer game...no.

You have don't to sign up for Twitter to view content. The same Twitter that is 100% operable on your PC. BioWare proved that you can use it for storytelling by the topic at hand. Check the wiki. They told that story via Twitter, regardless of whether or not you like it doesn't change that it's a valid medium for creative narrative.

SalsaDMA wrote...

So someone saying stuff without putting it into the game or books isn't worth the seconds spent saying it as far as storytelling accuracy goes. Only when actively added into the media that proper store and retell the stories, do they become canon.

Says who? Where's the rulebook with that entry in it?

Modifié par bennyjammin79, 30 mai 2012 - 07:58 .

[Father_Jerusalem]

People understand that they can read what people write on twitter without ever actually signing up for twitter themselves, right?

I mean, I read the whole Emily Wong story and... no Twitter account here.

As for whining that Emily would have been better than Chobot... well, yes. She would have. But the Twitter story had nothing to do with why we got Chobot. She was going to be there regardless of what happened to Emily Wong. This simply got people pumped up to play ME3 when they made this event happen. Sorry to break it to you.

[AdamJenson]

bennyjammin79 wrote...

Whether or not a person feels it should or shouldn't be canon is silly because well, it is: click 

Several other things:

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

Other than a threating him when he scans you and Aria throwing a datapad at him he's nothing more than a background character. He never made any impact on the games's storyline, so his death means nothing in the game.

You're also forgetting the Packages for Ish sidequest. You're right, Anto makes no impact on the game storyline. Neither does Emily Wong.

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

His role in the Mass Effect: Invasion comic book series made his character more important but in the end he's fourth string character, whose death meant more in the comic book than it would have in the games.

The EXACT same thing can be said of Emily Wong. Her Twitter death utilized the character more than the previous 2 games did. COMBINED.

AdamJenson wrote...

Next, you will have to sign up for text updates on your cell phone to acquire the latest "canon" news for a game that should be 100% operable on a PC (or xbox, or PS3, etc) and not have to use up minutes, data, time, etc on a silly phone.

Twitter has its uses (I get science news updates, ACLU updates, political updates, etc) but for storytelling or fleshing out a computer game...no.

You have don't to sign up for Twitter to view content. The same Twitter that is 100% operable on your PC. BioWare proved that you can use it for storytelling by the topic at hand. Check the wiki. They told that story via Twitter, regardless of whether or not you like it doesn't change that it's a valid medium for creative narrative.

SalsaDMA wrote...

So someone saying stuff without putting it into the game or books isn't worth the seconds spent saying it as far as storytelling accuracy goes. Only when actively added into the media that proper store and retell the stories, do they become canon.

Says who? Where's the rulebook with that entry in it?

It doesn't bother me that these minor characters got croaked in the story.  The issue isn't who died (for most of us).  It is making additions/changes to the story in a medium with no connection to the game.  It is the fact that in order to get this or that bit of info to fill in the details of the ME universe that you are playing in, you have to fish around here and there, never knowing what or where you will find anything to add some detail.  THAT'S the issue.  ANYTHING that colors or changes or adds to the ME universe must be expressed one way or another in the game.  Bioware is not a twitter story company.  They are not a facebook posting company.  They are not a texting service.  They make GAMES.  Full stop.  People read anything outside the game only BECAUSE of the game, to play the game, to help flesh out the game.  Game game game.  Not twitter tweets, not text messages.  Not mailing list emails.  The GAME.  

They can certainly feel free to throw out tidbits of information on the twit, facebook, text messages, shortwave radio, WHATEVER but they also need to ensure that it gets IN GAME coincidently or at the appropriate time IN GAME.  The GAME is the thing. Tweet schmeet.  Anything but game is secondary and cannot be used as a primary means of tossing out tidbits of GAME related information. That is just sick and wrong.

Wong is dead.  Anzo or whoever is dead.  Big whoopdidoo.  But no one got that IN GAME.  I didn't even know about it until someone said something in the BSN (while I was well into the game).  Sick and wrong.

[bennyjammin79]

AdamJenson wrote...

*snip*

I agree completely that the game should be the primary source for all that happens with the story. 

100%. 

Bioware isn't a comic company nor do they write novels. If Twitter shouldn't be canon, the comics and books shouldn't be canon either. 

Modifié par bennyjammin79, 30 mai 2012 - 09:03 .

[SalsaDMA]

bennyjammin79 wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

So someone saying stuff without putting it into the game or books isn't worth the seconds spent saying it as far as storytelling accuracy goes. Only when actively added into the media that proper store and retell the stories, do they become canon.

Says who? Where's the rulebook with that entry in it?

You haven't spent much time studying old stories, have you?

Those stories that date from times when stories passed more through word of mouth than through writing ended up having several different versions with no-one the wiser as to which version is the right one even when they contradict each other.

In a decade people will be able to look back at the ME story and go "So.. where's the evidence that this part that you claim is canon actually was part of the story?" with people unable to do anything but stammer about silly stuff like "But I'm positive I heard someone say that they read on a personal message that it was like this..."
At which point it will be ignored as hearsay and not seen as part of the story as it actually isn't part of the story that is being told in the medium the story itself is told.

But you're welcome to put on shutters about how time treats storytelling. Each to their own taste.