98 réponses à ce sujet

[Kyda]

Vormaerin wrote...

Frankly, I don't care if there is a sex scene or not. The best romance, imho, was Jaheira's in BG2. (once you ignore that it has to start when her husband's body is barely cold because the game's timeline is an epic plothole).

Jaheira's unfolded slowly, wasn't easy or obvious, had issues even if you did it 'right', allowed you to buy gifts, could go badly wrong, had heroics, and more.

I never played male chars in BG2 but I thought Jaheira´s story and personality was actually really interesting.

Another thing that came to mi mind about romances was the kidnapping of your LI by Bodhi... that was incredible. I for once really felt impelled to go after her and just smash that black heart of hers with my bare hands. All that came after was pure gold. I don´t think I got that same feeling in another game... specially with you having to figure out a way out to help them later. Brilliant! Of course Bioware can´t do the same thing over and over again because people would complain it is repetitive... but that was just brilliant!! 

[Nerdage]

Same thing that makes any sub-plot good; just make it interesting. How you make them interesting, I don't know, ask a writer.

If they could add some consequential choices into the romances, I think that would make them  more interesting. In DA2 the only choice you really made was yes or no; if you want the romance to continue click the hearts, otherwise don't. That's a bit like having the diplomatic choices always giving the best outcome in quests; the heart icon tells you what's going to happen next as much as it denotes Hawke's tone, not very interesting. Perhaps for some of the next lot of characters relentless flirting isn't the only way to win their affections?

Also.. I don't get rivalmances. I just don't. At least not all of them. Having a character fall for the player in spite of how the player opposes their most closely held beliefs makes no sense to me. I think if they stick with friendship / rivalry for the next game giving some characters no rivalmance, only a friendmance that's more responsive to player choice, would be better.

Modifié par nerdage, 31 mai 2012 - 06:35 .

[LolaLei]

I agree with Nerdage. I mean, sure I could see someone like Isabela being happy to rivalmance Hawke because she likes the challenge and enjoys a bit of fire in her love life, but I just couldn't see someone as sensitive as Merrill be willing to participate in a Rivalmance, especially as the things Hawke says to her during said romance is really harsh, if anything it would only upset someone of her nature.

[hussey 92]

what makes a good romance? How about sex without clothes on.

[R2s Muse]

I love that others are going back to BG2 for romance examples. I was also going to mention Anomen as one that stays with me. Admittedly, I knew he was a romance option and I think I started talking to him all the while grumbling that he was the only(?) male LI since he was such a pompous ass. Then, I was astonished to find that the more I talked to him, the more I fell for him. I honestly don't even remember if I had sex with him, but I remember falling in love with him.

So I guess I second what everyone else has said that the romance needs to include real character development, where you really get a chance to get to know someone. Part of that is hearing about them, their background, etc, but I think another part of it is also seeing the influence you have on them as a person. That doesn't have to be a big transformative, "love redeems him/her", but even the more subtle effect you can have. Like trusting someone who doesn't trust himself, or helping someone gain closure from a recent ordeal. Something like the Lel/Al hardening from DA:O, but happier and more constructive. For example, being a Cullen fan, I totally convinced myself by the end  of DA2 that I had hugely influenced him and helped him stand up for his own beliefs in what the Order stood for. I'd love to continue to look for this kind of effect in upcoming games.

It would be cool to see the romance link in more closely with the main story line, but I also understand that may not be possible since you can't really have the main story depending on an optional romance element. That said, I definitely want to be able to discuss with my LI more often so that it reflects a real partnership with that person. Something big happens in the story, I want to be able to talk to him/her about it. This was better in DA:O than DA2, but even in DA:O, I remember rushing to Alistair's side after the whole Eamon-you should be king thing  and wanted to debrief immediately. "OMG, what does this mean? how are you feeling? what should we do? ack!"  And, he didn't talk about it with me for a while and not til we were back in camp or something. I'd like to see those more natural relationship rhythms. Instead of "I enjoy following you," Fenris, how about talking over my latest worries with me?? giving me advice? comforting me?

Anyhoo, my $0.02, at last.

[brushyourteeth]

hussey 92 wrote...

what makes a good romance? How about sex without clothes on.

Disappointing.

Also probably none of our DA characters have ever had sex with their clothes on. We've just never actually seen more than foreplay, which I'm personally really ok with.


I agree with what a lot of you guys are saying about rivalmances - they seemed weird at times to me in DAII also, even though I think the idea is really interesting and could work. Has anyone seen that episode of 30 Rock where Jack dates the democrat? "Oh, I just want to kiss you to stop such ridiculous things from coming out of your mouth!" LOL - something like that.

I think a rivalmance is something the writers could pull off beautifully but it would have to be written specifically for that character and would probably be the only track you could follow to their romance. Not that they'd disapprove, but that they'd find your opposite stance to be sexy and compelling. Someone like Sebastian could never actually be in love with someone who treated others terribly and hated the Chantry (both the best tracks to rivalry points), so in that sense I felt like his rivalmance didn't make much sense. But someone like Merrill who was obviously in the wrong (whether you agree or disagree with blood magic, etc. she was still making some unwise choices and messing up her lfe) might actually enjoy having a strong figure in her life kind of baby her and say "Absolutely not. I love you too much to let you keep doing this to yourself."

I could especially see this as the only way a romance would work with a Kossith companion. Our protagonist obviously isn't going to just convert to the Qun, so any romance with someone coming from a strong Qunari background and education would, like Sten, just be bluntly bewildered that you could be "wrong" about just about everything. But if this person had any doubts about the Qun or its rules, he/she might find it incredibly refreshing  and sexy to meet someone with strong convictions who accomplished great things outside the Qun. Someone who answered them back with "No actually, you're the one that's wrong." - it would lead to a lot of aggressive makeout scenes.

So I really think this is a component to great romance - the romances in DA ought to be written specifically to match the character you're romancing. I found that it was easy to romance all the characters in DAII because you simply hit the flirt button and did their personal quests. The tree of dialogue with say Alistair however seemed much more complicated. If you joked about the wrong thing or were too serious about something else he'd be put off, which revealed something else about how fickle and complicated he could be as a person. But there were opportunities to apologize and make up for it later. Or if you were too forward the relationship would skip ahead past some dialogue options, but if you worked on your friendship with him he'd eventually take the lead and new opportunities to get to know him opened up.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 01 juin 2012 - 02:49 .

[brushyourteeth]

R2s Muse wrote...
 I definitely want to be able to discuss with my LI more often so that it reflects a real partnership with that person. Something big happens in the story, I want to be able to talk to him/her about it. This was better in DA:O than DA2, but even in DA:O, I remember rushing to Alistair's side after the whole Eamon-you should be king thing  and wanted to debrief immediately. "OMG, what does this mean? how are you feeling? what should we do? ack!"  And, he didn't talk about it with me for a while and not til we were back in camp or something. I'd like to see those more natural relationship rhythms. Instead of "I enjoy following you," Fenris, how about talking over my latest worries with me?? giving me advice? comforting me?

Anyhoo, my $0.02, at last.

THIS. Oh, a million bazillion times this!

Nothing reminds me that the character I'm romancing is actually a pixellated bot that doesn't actually care about my in-game worries more than having them almost never speak to you about the most traumatic events taking place in your world together. I realize that's what Fenris and Anders actually are, but for the 30 hours I devote to the game I'd really like to forget about that and let myself be lost in the story.

[LolaLei]

I would definitely prefer the obvious flirt button to be taken away, simply because I enjoy experimenting with different dialogue options and I like to try and guess for myself which line of dialogue will have what outcome. Knowing that I could sweet talk the character just by picking the heart icon made it too easy for me and kinda ruined the thrill of the chase and the unpredictable nature of their response.

[LolaLei]

I also missed being able to ask my companions what their feelings were regarding the current quest and then being able to return to them once that quest was finished to unlock new dialogue regarding its outcome. It made them all feel more real, like they actually had opinions on topics beyond the issues that define them.

[brushyourteeth]

LolaLei wrote...

I would definitely prefer the obvious flirt button to be taken away, simply because I enjoy experimenting with different dialogue options and I like to try and guess for myself which line of dialogue will have what outcome. Knowing that I could sweet talk the character just by picking the heart icon made it too easy for me and kinda ruined the thrill of the chase and the unpredictable nature of their response.

Yeah, I agree with you there. I understand where the flirt option started because people were feeling ninjamanced, but the problem is really the romantic paraphrases.

For instance "You're not alone. I care about you." could mean "we're friends and I'm sorry that life sucks but I'm here for you."

It could also mean "take off your panties."

That's just something I think the devs could easily fix by making the paraphrases more clear.

I also missed being able to ask my companions what their feelings were regarding the current quest and then being able to return to them once that quest was finished to unlock new dialogue regarding its outcome. It made them all feel more real, like they actually had opinions on topics beyond the issues that define them.

You're touching on something there in that last sentence that I've been thinking about for awhile, but may not actually be what you're getting at at all - but it reminded me so I'm going to say something, LOL.

I felt like the romanceable characters in DAII were pretty gimmicky.

Anders was the troubled, possessed mage on a crusade to end Chantry control of mages, and that was really all we ever saw of his character - the cause. I guess that's appropriate for him since he was literally possessed with the cause, but I wish now we'd been able to see the cracks in Justice's influence to the Anders that was inside.
Fenris was a ticked off former slave who hated mages. That's literally all we ever got out of him in our romances.
Merrill was consumed with her mission to restore the eluvian and her desire to convince the world that she could handle being a blood mage. I felt like she got a little more personal with her likes and dislikes, her background and such than the others did.
Isabela was actually interesting because she was a character who screamed "gimmick" and then ended up being so much more than that. So well done, Bioware! But I still wish we'd been able to explore her transformation much deeper.

DA:O had gimmick characters like Oghren, but we didn't romance him - he was there for comic relief. Alistair was my favorite romance and he didn't have a gimmick at all. He was just a guy struggling through the Blight with you, but he still found plenty to talk to you about. You learn that he's the heir but not until much later. Zevran's only slightly gimmicky trait was that he was such a flirt. Morrigan's was that she was dangerous, but she wasn't constantly reminding you of that fact.

So I guess I'm saying that I'm really ok with just romancing *normal* people. The drama can come in the details, in the fibers of who they are and not what they do or how they dress. Or let us have a few more surprises like Isabela. I've read some of the writers say that what makes a good romance is drama - that you don't actually want to romance someone in the game that you would romance in real life. Are you kidding me? I would have married a real life Alistair in a heartbeat. Less than a heartbeat. I gave up re-romancing Anders or Fenris, because I felt more like I was babysitting them. It's less maddening to be the girl that helps put them back together for the next guy or girl who can love them better than I can. That tells a story, but it's not great romance.

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 01 juin 2012 - 03:15 .

[LolaLei]

Yeah that's pretty much what I was getting at. Don't get me wrong I like the drama but it gets a bit samey when it's just one issue they keep going on about, sure it's important but they must have feelings and opinions regarding other topics of information too. I would like to have learnt more about the background of the DA2 characters as well, just because I'm a nosy bastard like that lol.

Something else that felt missing from the character interactions was the ambience of the surroundings (I say this a lot) but DA2 seemed to lack the atmosphere that DA:O had, which I think contributed largely to the reason why I didn't feel quite so attached to my DA2 companions as I did with the DA:O ones. I mean, as lovely as it was seeing Anders make out with Hawke in his clinic, it kinda ruins the mood when you realise there's a dead body under that sheet over there, mere feet away LOL!

[Orian Tabris]

LolaLei wrote...

I would definitely prefer the obvious flirt button to be taken away, simply because I enjoy experimenting with different dialogue options and I like to try and guess for myself which line of dialogue will have what outcome. Knowing that I could sweet talk the character just by picking the heart icon made it too easy for me and kinda ruined the thrill of the chase and the unpredictable nature of their response.

I completely agree, 100%.

In Origins, my first character (on the replay, to give him a personality), my City Elf (hence my username) prior to meeting Leliana who I later romanced, more or less courted Morrigan in Lothering. It didn't take long after their second meeting, to somehow get Morrigan to say something along the lines of "Then we'll just be two cute things." I don't remember how I got to it, but I remember him calling her 'cute' beforehand. It really suited his character - trying his best to please women, in an attempt to get some female approval whenever he can, as he took losing his mother, Adaia pretty hard. If BW had given you a flirt option in Origins, I'd have never gotten Morrigan to lower her guard so quickly, which as we know, is no easy task considering her disposition towards almost everyone she meets.

Later on, even after he rejected her, clearly preferring Leliana, she still stayed/fell back in love with him. And that's another thing about what makes a good romance. The ability to have a character fall in love with someone, despite already having rejected them, once before. After the rejection, if the two characters both fall in love with each other, it could make their being together, that much more meaningful (perhaps depending on how they come to the realisation that they love do them). In DA2, once the PC and the companion split up, there's no going back, which is pretty contricting to character development.

[Orian Tabris]

brushyourteeth wrote...
/snip

Fenris was a ticked off former slave who hated mages. That's literally all we ever got out of him in our romances.

/snip

Actually, there was more to it than that. He also had the conflict of warming to the concept of 'love', and what it means to him.

Sadly, there was little to no mention of his growing affection for a mage. And absolutely nothing about his affection for a blood mage, even an evil one, which disappointed me greatly. When romancing him, I found no chance to refer to the fact that my mage was a blood mage, instead, I had to avoid letting my Femhawke call herself an apostate when she's technically a maleficar - which is something she would not be afraid to admit. She would even use it against him, if and when, he tries to escape the (romance related) matter, had BioWare given me the option.

brushyourteeth wrote...
/snip

I've read some of the writers say that what makes a good romance is drama - that you don't actually want to romance someone in the game that you would romance in real life. Are you kidding me? I would have married a real life Alistair in a heartbeat. Less than a heartbeat.

/snip

I've read that too somewhere, but TBH, I don't think it has anything to do with the romances, unless they involved someone who wasn't of the same gender/sex that the player is into, in reality.

Merrill is probably the only one I could stand/enjoy to be with in real life, and we'd go well together - though because we both struggle communicating with others. Leliana's religious, Morrigan would make me uncomfortable when we're around people she didn't get along with and Isabela's too open with her words (and admittedly too dark skinned). I did put my racist belief (I've only got one) behind me, and romanced Isabela first, for a canon game.

Modifié par Orian Tabris, 01 juin 2012 - 09:47 .

[fchopin]

For me good romances requires interaction, if i cannot talk to an NPC and have to wait for years like in DA2 then i lose interest and don’t really care as i know this is just a game with no meaning.

Another important feature is knowing what my character will say before choosing the dialogue, if i don’t know what my character will say then i am not really interested in romances as i am just replaying some developers romance.

One more point that is a killer to romance is having a heart icon, it’s like shooting the person you like.

[Dwarva]

Sadly, there was little to no mention of his growing affection for a mage. And absolutely nothing about his affection for a blood mage, even an evil one, which disappointed me greatly. When romancing him, I found no chance to refer to the fact that my mage was a blood mage, instead, I had to avoid letting my Femhawke call herself an apostate when she's technically a maleficar - which is something she would not be afraid to admit. She would even use it against him, if and when, he tries to escape the (romance related) matter, had BioWare given me the option.

In all honesty the fact that this was even an option in DA2 bothered me slightly. I think there should have been some character options that, if you chose them, certain companions were locked out of a romance. I started a thread on rivalmancing in the companions forum and got a really interesting response.

I just don't see how someone like Fenris would allow himself to fall in love with a blood mage. It's absolutely everything he hates - I genuinely don't think he'd even ever like that person, never mind fall for them. Similarly with Anders - if you were a Templar loving, mage hating Hawke he really should never have come around to you. The line in Act 3 where he says 'you're everything I hate but I can't stop thinking about you' (paraphrased...) really doesn't sit well with me at all. It's like meeting and falling in love with someone who's racist...or a sexual deviant...would you ever allow yourself to get close enough to develop feelings? I really doubt it.

Personally rather than the whole 'should all the LIs have been bisexual', I think the real question should be 'would they actually ever fall for this person given their personality'? A lot of people on the rivalmancing thread countered with 'but that's only a certain aspect of their personality' but it's just deeper than that. Some things you simply can't get over and Fenris being with a blood mage or Anders/Merrill being with someone who actively hates mages and is outspoken about it just isn't right IMO.

Modifié par Staarbux, 01 juin 2012 - 10:37 .

[Dwarva]

Grr double post. Sorry!

Modifié par Staarbux, 01 juin 2012 - 10:37 .

[AkiKishi]

Orian Tabris wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...
/snip

Fenris was a ticked off former slave who hated mages. That's literally all we ever got out of him in our romances.

/snip

Actually, there was more to it than that. He also had the conflict of warming to the concept of 'love', and what it means to him.

Sadly, there was little to no mention of his growing affection for a mage. And absolutely nothing about his affection for a blood mage, even an evil one, which disappointed me greatly. When romancing him, I found no chance to refer to the fact that my mage was a blood mage, instead, I had to avoid letting my Femhawke call herself an apostate when she's technically a maleficar - which is something she would not be afraid to admit. She would even use it against him, if and when, he tries to escape the (romance related) matter, had BioWare given me the option.

brushyourteeth wrote...
/snip

I've read some of the writers say that what makes a good romance is drama - that you don't actually want to romance someone in the game that you would romance in real life. Are you kidding me? I would have married a real life Alistair in a heartbeat. Less than a heartbeat.

/snip

I've read that too somewhere, but TBH, I don't think it has anything to do with the romances, unless they involved someone who wasn't of the same gender/sex that the player is into, in reality.

Merrill is probably the only one I could stand/enjoy to be with in real life, and we'd go well together - though because we both struggle communicating with others. Leliana's religious, Morrigan would make me uncomfortable when we're around people she didn't get along with and Isabela's too open with her words (and admittedly too dark skinned). I did put my racist belief (I've only got one) behind me, and romanced Isabela first, for a canon game.

I'm broadly in agreement with that. I'm not looking for a virtual playmate, I'm looking for depth/alternate aspect to the story. Outside of JRPGs , Witcher2 came closest to nailing my personal type with Triss. She also had very strong plot connection and drama. Never stopped me nailing the succubus and the grateful elf, but everything else was directed at getting Triss back and leaving a trail of corpses.

Morrigan in DA because she's interesting, her VA is very good. She's a challenge and she's someone who I'd want to keep around.Leliana was also a good choice ( I did play the game 8 times).

Tali in ME because Engineer Shepard had a lot in common with her. She was part of my party all through ME so romaning her in ME2 was a natural evolution of that relationship. Infiltrator Shepard did Liara, which is about as close to a canon relationship a CRPG has come. It's very JRPGesque.

Merril in DA2 because she was the least awful of the bunch. And I know her voice actress.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 01 juin 2012 - 10:51 .

[R2s Muse]

For reference, in case it adds to discussion, here's a link to something Mary Kirby said about needing drama in a romance over on the Varric thread once upon a time.

I think she makes some compelling arguments for a romance needing its ups and downs. That said, I'd still love for the romance to feel more like a partnership. It can still have its drama, but inevitably, I'm draggin' my LI with me wherever I go. I'd love to have that extra layer on their interactions with me/my situation. Like, say we're at the inevitable fighting stage of the relationship, it'd be cool if he/she isn't following orders like usual, or grumbling, or something. This would be in contrast, for example, to how once Fenris dumped me... nothing really changed.

[edit: OK, I suppose there was some grumbling in the banters, like when Fenris and Anders got into it about how I was being treated. Like that... but more. And, talking to me, not each other.]

Modifié par R2s Muse, 01 juin 2012 - 04:17 .

[Reznore57]

I read what Mary Kirby wrote ..but i tend to disagree a bit.It's not like our hero life lack possible drama already.Playing Hawke , the relationship i enjoy the most , is Isabella .Because it gives the feeling its tension free.I mean his family dies around him/her so having this little moment of fun was great.
And i could have a Isabella relationship without the whole "im afraid of love " thing.My hawke was there for the sex and fun , and if isabella is up for more great , if she isn't well great friend with benefits is fine.

I mean i love tragic romances like Wuthering Heights , Heathcliff and Cathy .But It's because I read it , I would never want to play Cathy.
I could have had a Varric romance , you know with scene like Varric reading something to Hawke in an intimate moment , and just the two of them having fun .I could imagine faking a jealousy fit over Bianca.
Romance can be here as a relief , it doesn't always have to be there to provide drama that can be already in the general story.

[R2s Muse]

Reznore57 wrote...

I mean i love tragic romances like Wuthering Heights , Heathcliff and Cathy .But It's because I read it , I would never want to play Cathy.
I could have had a Varric romance , you know with scene like Varric reading something to Hawke in an intimate moment , and just the two of them having fun .I could imagine faking a jealousy fit over Bianca.
Romance can be here as a relief , it doesn't always have to be there to provide drama that can be already in the general story.

Eek, I hear ya about Heathcliff and Cathy. Nope... wouldn't want to be either.

[Nerdage]

R2s Muse wrote...

For reference, in case it adds to discussion, here's a link to something Mary Kirby said about needing drama in a romance over on the Varric thread once upon a time.

First time I read that I didn't agree, but after seeing the Iresso romance in SWTOR I get what she's saying. Iresso pretty much follows the linear progression she describes; you meet, some flirting occurs, you get together, end. It's a reasonable progression but as a story to play through it's not compelling in the least.

It's like going to the bandit camp only to find they've all renounced their lives of crime and started up small businesses, all's well in the end but without the drama there's surprisingly little left.

[R2s Muse]

nerdage wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

For reference, in case it adds to discussion, here's a link to something Mary Kirby said about needing drama in a romance over on the Varric thread once upon a time.

First time I read that I didn't agree, but after seeing the Iresso romance in SWTOR I get what she's saying. Iresso pretty much follows the linear progression she describes; you meet, some flirting occurs, you get together, end. It's a reasonable progression but as a story to play through it's not compelling in the least.

It's like going to the bandit camp only to find they've all renounced their lives of crime and started up small businesses, all's well in the end but without the drama there's surprisingly little left.

I know what you mean (in general... afraid I haven't played SWTOR much, so don't know Iresso). I think one of  Kirby's compelling points is in a later post on that thread:

The drama has to be why they can't be together.

So, perhaps the real question is... do we want the romance to just be a fun, support moment that has no real story arc to itself, or do we want a romance story embedded within the larger story?

I haven't played Skyrim myself, but I've heard some interesting likes/dislikes about the romances there. Like, you can get married, live together and do domesticky things together, and this seems.. nice. What I haven't heard much of is whether there is any of this "drama" aspect of those relationships. Can anyone comment on that?

Modifié par R2s Muse, 01 juin 2012 - 05:26 .

[Nomen Mendax]

R2s Muse wrote...

...

I haven't played Skyrim myself, but I've heard some interesting likes/dislikes about the romances there. Like, you can get married, live together and do domesticky things together, and this seems.. nice. What I haven't heard much of is whether there is any of this "drama" aspect of those relationships. Can anyone comment on that?

There is no depth or drama whatsoever to romances in Skyrim.  Basically romances consist of putting on an amulet to indicate that you want to get married, and then asking a character that you've done a quest for to marry you.  You then have a wedding ceremony and your LI comes to live in your house and periodically gives you some money. There is no emotion to this (unless you want to imagine it).  Incidentally I like Skyrim, and I think that Bethesda are doing some interesting things but they have a long way to go in terms of narrative, plot and characterization.

[AkiKishi]

Nomen Mendax wrote...

R2s Muse wrote...

...

I haven't played Skyrim myself, but I've heard some interesting likes/dislikes about the romances there. Like, you can get married, live together and do domesticky things together, and this seems.. nice. What I haven't heard much of is whether there is any of this "drama" aspect of those relationships. Can anyone comment on that?

There is no depth or drama whatsoever to romances in Skyrim.  Basically romances consist of putting on an amulet to indicate that you want to get married, and then asking a character that you've done a quest for to marry you.  You then have a wedding ceremony and your LI comes to live in your house and periodically gives you some money. There is no emotion to this (unless you want to imagine it).  Incidentally I like Skyrim, and I think that Bethesda are doing some interesting things but they have a long way to go in terms of narrative, plot and characterization.

Sounds a bit like Harvest Moon where they pack you a lunch and kiss you goodbye every morning. Day to day life is pretty routine stuff anyway. Not sure how Bethesda could make that dramatic.

[Nomen Mendax]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Sounds a bit like Harvest Moon where they pack you a lunch and kiss you goodbye every morning. Day to day life is pretty routine stuff anyway. Not sure how Bethesda could make that dramatic.

But there is no drama to the courtship either (which could/should be dramatic, or at least emotionally involving). Don't take this as a criticism since I see romances in Skyrim as something that would be nice to have, not something that is an integral part of the game.

And yes that does imply that I see romances as an integral part of DA3.

[edit] P.S. Having lunch packed for me and being kissed goodbye in the morning sounds very sweet ...

Modifié par Nomen Mendax, 01 juin 2012 - 06:01 .