143 réponses à ce sujet

[molecularman]

You NEED to combine them with somebody who can prime combos, then just detonate everything with Lash and charge on armored enemies. If you are using the vanguard, that is.

[PluralAces]

Smash doesnt hit behind cover??

I was hitting people behind walls with Smash...

[Phazael]

The class is interesting when played along side another move around adept class, especially the AJ, but its a little too frail at higher difficulties, even if you max fitness.  I think you basically have to take Singularity to account for certain situations and set up certain combos and that more or less ties your hands in other ways.  Also, techies pooching your BE combos punish this guy worse than anyone, since he more or less has to expose himself to do the combo and having to do those long startup animation triggers twice is a death sentance on anything above bronze.

The biggest issues are the animation startups which are too slow for not having any immunity frames, as others have stated.  This guy is clearly meant to close in so he needs his startup frames to be invul, similar to how Novatards get a free pass with Charge and Nova.  The other major concern is that his powers just do not seemlessly play off each other like the other biotics.  I think simply making lash drop the enemy directly in front of you would get rid of the clunkiness of the class and open it up to doing the lash smash combo that the designers clearly wanted it to do.  The AE mele could use a slight damage hike, too, as it seems lacking compared to the Asari one, which has a superior stagger component already.

On the plus side, Smash does ridiculous damage to things if you can get close enough to use it.  It mows down things through walls fairly fast, but you need something to pull aggro to do this to a boss.  The Lash Smash combo is also probably the fastest BE to set up in the game, though its not the best AE option, and the Singularity Lash combo is almost as fast (though clunky to use), so the potential is there to do good damage with this guy.  I think in a regular group with a though out team setup, this guy is on equal footing with the AA, being better at single target damage but worse at BE room sweeping.  In pickups, without any kind of coordination, you would be better off with literally any other biotic class.

Modifié par Phazael, 30 mai 2012 - 02:26 .

[BYC]

I played him a lot yesterday, and I got over how he can't biotic explode that easily against armored enemies.

Smash = Shockwave with more damage, less range, and no screen shake.
Lash = Pull that works through barriers and shields.
Singularity = doesn't seem like it's changed or dfferent with Phoenix adept

He reminds me a lot of BatSent. Up close fighting and loving it. I haven't tested much with his heavy melee, but it probably doesn't kill like the batarian melee, but perhaps it can set off biotic explosions.

The class does need to be built up to be effective however. So I wouldn't use him much before level 12. Once I got Lash to ignore shields/barriers, the class got way better.

[Cylon Toaster]

ROFL at anyone saying this class sucks. It's an excellent support character and kills the bosses with ease. Above bronze you must use a lot cover though. Very fun class to play.

[mase1771]

you cant have an ego with this class. I dont think the vanguard is gold material (diving into enemies is the worst idea for gold) the adept, in my opinion, isnt designed to "top the leader boards". More like a major support role thats good at taking out all the small stuff while your heavy hitters handle the bosses. I use a paladin 1 and can still contribute to taking down bosses. I think its more fun to play this class than anything else so far.

[mandalorian sun]

Bobkyou wrote...

Man discussions in these sort of topics can be tough.  Everyone just wants to talk about how much they love the class, or that they got top of the scoreboard, or anyone who thinks any class is bad is instantly wrong.

If you love the class, great.  That still doesn't really add anything to the discussion.  No one is saying you shouldn't play the class.  A game is supposed to be fun, so as long as you are having fun, that's all that matters.

Topping the scoreboard doesn't matter, because you can't account for the lack of skill of other players.  And if you had played a different class, you might have done even better.

'Bad' or 'terrible' are very subjective terms.  Every single class in this game could solo gold in the hands the the right player, just check youtube.  'Bad' doesn't mean the class can't be played, it just means other classes would do better.


I'm just having a hard time seeing what the PA brings to the table over say, an AA or even a HS.

AA and HS can trigger their own BEs on any target at any range.

PA can trigger them at meh range and only on targets without armor (so no primes, atlases, turrets, ravagers, ect).  When the PA does trigger the BEs, they tend to pull the enemies away from the groups, reducing the overall damage done.  To trigger the BEs, the PA has to be very close to the target.

I just don't see what the PA gets in return for all these disadvantages.  Singularity?  Stasis is similar PLUS it works on targets with shields (similar in that both of them are pre castable disable abilities that can stop multiple mobs).  As an adept BEs are your bread and butter, its why you play the class, its massive damage over a wide area.

Someone talked about using lash to throw enemies into the void, and while that may be fun its not something I would personally care for.  I once played a FBWGG game where someone knocked a geth over the edge, but it didn't die.  I could see it when I had hunter mode on, and we couldn't kill it.  Ended up having to leave.

Oh well, the class only just came out.  Someone could be coming up with a WTFOMG NERF IT build right now.

edit:  Arg, why do these forums keep messing up my formatting

This right here is exactly correct.

I spent all yesterday experimenting with the class, and as much as i wanted to love it, it is inferior to all other adepts. Armored targets can only be affected by one skill, smash, which has terrible range, leaves you exposed for the long animation (even if you dodge roll or heavy melee before the animation is over), and puts you in instakill range of banshees, brutes, atlas's, phantoms and the like. Other armored targets include pyro's, who i don't want to be that close to with such a long animation, especially since they travel in packs. Ravagers, who will spill their guts all over you if you aren't careful at that range. I can't believe i'm saying this but nova is a more useful skill, sure it eats barriers but it has invincibility frames, no cooldown and larger radius. 

Without warp the BE's will never be as good as the other human adept. It's def superior to lash, which can't touch armored targets at all, has no impact radius and barely a shorter cooldown. At least throw can detonate biotic effects on armor, lash can't even do that.

Shockwave, since the buff in particular, is an excellent crowd control move for the HA that smash is unable to compensate for, the range is soooo bad and it leaves you so exposed even when using it from cover, unlike shockwave which can hold back an army if need be on a shorter casting animation. 

Lets just say i had so much trouble trying to find an optimal build i considered running singularity not for BE's, but for lift damage and timeout explosion, and seriously, singularity takes ten years to blow up on it's own, even banshee's die from other sources before that thing self-detonates

[LGear]

People saying that all Lash does is "get enemies behind you" are using it wrong. Lash works similarly to Pull in that the enemies go flying in the direction of where the projectile came from. If you shoot it directly in front of you towards your enemy of course your enemy will get pulled towards you.

The best way to use Lash isn't actually to pull enemies towards you, but to send them off to their deaths out of the map or into the sky. Angle your aim either to the side or above, then watch as Lash sends your enemies skywards. I chuckle every time I send an enemy flying out of the map boundaries and getting the kill seconds later. And even on CQB, the impact from the flight alone will still deal significant damage to enemies. Finally, Lash's ability to ignore shields with the Rank 6 Shield Penetration evolution means you can yank Centurions, Rocket Troopers, Marauders and all other non-armored shield units without needing to drop their shields.

On that note, Lash has become my favorite anti-Phantom ability due to its ability to bypass Barriers. Sure they will be able to block the ability like all other projectile biotics, but Lash has such a fast cooldown that you can get a second one in before they can raise their defenses. The first Phantom I came across right after getting Rank 6 on Lash basically had the misfortune of meeting me in a small room in Firebase Jade. She immediately turned into a ragdoll that never touched the ground until she died.

As for Smash, it's not really intended to be a "gung-ho" type ability like Nova where you can just run up to a group of enemies and then whip em'. It does need a bit of getting used to its wind up time, but if you can get the jump on enemies that get too close to you Smash is absolutely devastating.

I only have the Phoenix Vanguard, but Singularity does synergize with Lash and Smash when it comes to Biotic Explosions. Still, as a Phoenix Biotic Explosions should be the last thing on your mind when it comes to how you deal damage.

mandalorian sun wrote...

Without warp the BE's will never be as good as the other human adept. It's def superior to lash, which can't touch armored targets at all, has no impact radius and barely a shorter cooldown. At least throw can detonate biotic effects on armor, lash can't even do that.

 

I managed to detonate a biotic explosion on a Banshee that walked into a Justicar's Biotic Bubble, so I know first-hand that Lash can detonate biotic effects on armored targets. 

Also, you can't compare Lash to Warp, since it works more like Pull or Throw. It's not meant to be an anti-armor ability, but instead used to kill just about everything else. No one complains that Throw or Pull aren't all that effective against Armor, and people still manage to be quite effective with them even outside of using them as Biotic Explosion detonators/primers. 

Modifié par LGear, 30 mai 2012 - 04:41 .

[Miriad]

The DoT from lash does affect armored targets, just reaaally slowwwwly. The only thing you can do if you see that Atlas/Brute/Banshee coming is to use the weakest dot in the game. For an Adept, it's sad that you are without a doubt better off using your weapon. Enjoy shooting that Atlas with your carnifex, Phoenix Adept!

[Ogrinash]

I didn't mean that the Reeger was the main point.

You can do everything with just Smash and Lash (Heavy Melee too).

[Cornrow Jezus]

I feel like the Adept is a perfect support class. I ignored singularity, and put all my points into fitness, lash, etc. Lash is excellent if you have the +100% damage perk because even when you throw **** behind you, by the time they get back up they are either dead or need a couple bullets to finish off, and that's on gold. The fact that lash staggers pretty much everything is also a great bonus.

It's already been said, smash is great for hitting people behind cover. It also comes in handy when enemies come flooding in. Even if you die, as long as you get smash off it gives your team a small window to either retreat or recover some health. The same can be said with heavy melee. I can't tell you how many times my squad got swarmed by geth hunters and the heavy melee just pushed them back, giving my squad a chance to either rez the fallen or get out of dodge.

I honestly don't see a huge problem with the adept as long as you use them right.

[Methanoid666]

ghey it up wrote...

It's okay if this class is terribad because BioWare will just buff them down the road. Just look at all the strides they've made in the last month and a half or so with underpowered classes/weapons/skills/etc

so far their buffs have been bumping up some dmg figures when instead the issue here is the classes mechanics on lash/smash which are terrible and as mentioned have abysmal synergy, add to that singularity is pathetic unless you play bronze matches only, even then its pretty poor.

[Aethyl]

As I said in another post, I took my little adept (didn't got the vanguard) for a gold run on R/R/G to test it a new time.
Ended on cerberus/FBW, and it was an awesome run.

Build 0/6/6/6/6 with lash penetration, biotic explosions, biotic power and weight.
Weapons: Talon I and Hurricane I.
Gear: Commando Package I.
The adept is nothing but terrible, he can already handle his own with the combo lash + smash (didn't take singularity), even against phantoms, since he can pull them back even with their barriers, but it's definitely a class which really works when synergising it with another adept class, like the asari adept I got in this match.

Stasis on a phantom? Make it explode with lash, warp on an atlas? Explosion with smash!

Phantom not stased? Just pull it with lash, and explode her with smash.

Also, smash and lash can go through most covers, and even some walls, which is just an awesomely powerful feature when used right. And smash can detonate one tech burst and one biotic explosion in one use.

So yeah; the adept is really powerful, even in gold, and I think it will be one of my main chars for now.

Modifié par Aethyl, 30 mai 2012 - 04:51 .

[Miriad]

Flooding in where? Do you guys pretend every map is FBWGG? Imagine this scenario. You are the last alive on your team vs geth, and you are out of rockets. Still alive are 2 rocket troopers, 2 pyros, 2 hunters, and 2 geth primes. How long would it take you to kill that say versus an Asari Adept. Every other adept has a ranged self created biotic detonation. I get the idea that lash is supposed to pull them here so you can smash them. How well does that work against primes and pyros? Think it through.

I want to like this class, it's just not where it needs to be.

[Aethyl]

Miriad wrote...

Flooding in where? Do you guys pretend every map is FBWGG? Imagine this scenario. You are the last alive on your team vs geth, and you are out of rockets. Still alive are 2 rocket troopers, 2 pyros, 2 hunters, and 2 geth primes. How long would it take you to kill that say versus an Asari Adept. Every other adept has a ranged self created biotic detonation. I get the idea that lash is supposed to pull them here so you can smash them. How well does that work against primes and pyros? Think it through.

I want to like this class, it's just not where it needs to be.

It's not a class dedicated to soloing, but it's a great class for team synergy when played with others adepts.
So, cobra!

Modifié par Aethyl, 30 mai 2012 - 04:50 .

[A Wild Snorlax]

Smash is way too slow. It should be as fast as the heavvy melee or you should get invincibility frames while doing it.

[LGear]

Methanoid666 wrote...

so far their buffs have been bumping up some dmg figures when instead the issue here is the classes mechanics on lash/smash which are terrible and as mentioned have abysmal synergy, add to that singularity is pathetic unless you play bronze matches only, even then its pretty poor.

Technically, the synergy for Smash/Lash is to use Lash to pull your opponent in, then use Smash to destroy them. Though the synergy breaks down when you consider that it's faster to just shoot them. 

Still, Smash is kinda difficult to use as an ability, but Lash being terrible? I couldn't disagree more. Against anything that doesn't have armor, Lash totally dominates as an ability, beating out Throw and Pull for sheer lethality. It kills anything that Throw or Pull by themselves cannot, and I don't even need to drop their shields or barriers with weapons due to the Shield Penetration evolution, which means I don't need to waste ammo on most enemies. 

[FrOoOstBite]

They definitely need to do something with smash,it just takes too long to execute,and with you having low hp and smash being melee range ability that's not good

[RecoonHoodie]

OP when you cant play with the clas, dont post some thread in the forum about how bad you are at playing this class. I (gold player) playing with Asari Justicar ( probably one of the best AJ players) was outscored with 7000 points by my friend who is not such a good player with other clases overall , This proves wrong your hypothesis, infact i think this class is very newbie friendly. Lash can screw up with everything exept: atlas,prime,banshee,brute,ravager,turret and the Smash is just .... i don't know the word... maybe: OVER 1000 dmg for god sake.

[LordOpic]

Im finding it  fun, but takes a lot of getting used to. it's a bit squishy, but then I;m trying to lash, HM anything that moves because the effect is so cool.

Edit: noteing the post above mine, I agree it takes time to get used to him the class is very powerfull, im killing stuff without even knowing it, and starting to get the hang of lash roll,etc, phatoms are no longer the pain in the ass they used to be thats for sure. 

Modifié par LordOpic, 30 mai 2012 - 05:00 .

[Epsilon330]

While I agree with the fact that the PA doesn't belong in Gold, it powers through Silver.
Essentially: don't bother allocating anything to Singularity, and spec Fitness to all Health. Then Put 6 and 6 in Lash and Smash, choosing the range boost for Smash, and Defense-Ignore for Lash.
You now have a perfect crowd-control/long-range target suppressor.
Using Defense-Ignore Lash, you can stagger Banshees, ATLASes, and even incapacitate Phantoms in one hit!
Smash is great against Husks, Geth, and Cerb Troopers if you give it the Shock effect (for shields). Just charge into a group as they spawn (you have to be more aggressive with the PA), and let 'er rip! Double-kills for all!

[Skullheart]

My CA is great so far. If he doesn't do the "come here" with lash then he's teaching flying lessons, The phantoms are good students.

[Javo2357]

mase1771 wrote...

you cant have an ego with this class. I dont think the vanguard is gold material (diving into enemies is the worst idea for gold) the adept, in my opinion, isnt designed to "top the leader boards". More like a major support role thats good at taking out all the small stuff while your heavy hitters handle the bosses. I use a paladin 1 and can still contribute to taking down bosses. I think its more fun to play this class than anything else so far.

^This. The Phoenix classes are very effective at taking out lesser enemies quickly. The Phoenix Vanguard is basically a monster at protecting other Adepts or squishier teammates from mobs. You can also yank enemies out of cover regardless of whether they have shields or not, making them pretty damn effective especially against Cerberus since they like to entrench themselves behind cover more than the other factions.

[Bobkyou]

This argument that the PA is good when paired with another biotic doesn't really add to the discussion. A HS/AA/HA with a AJ/DA will do better than a PA + any other biotic, because while the PA is completely dependent on a partner to create BEs against armored targets, the HS, AA, HA, AJ, and DA can all make both solo and partner BEs.

Yes the word 'terrible' is way too strong and was a poor choice by the OP. However I've yet to see any convincing arguments as to what the PA gains in exchange for not having the ability to trigger BEs on armored targets, or being required to use an ability with such a short range.

If you love the class, great. Its only a game and all that really matters is having fun. If you think the class is 'powerful,' fine. Its powerful. The other adepts still look better in comparison though, unless I'm missing something.

Modifié par Bobkyou, 30 mai 2012 - 05:09 .

[Adhok42]

*facepalms keyboard*

...And the solution was so simple I completely forgot.

Has anyone with the Stronghold package tried adding it to their Adepts to make them less squishy? The piece of gear that allows for increased barriers and shorter recharge time? It might help with your smash woes. That's probably why they added the gear in the first place.