15 réponses à ce sujet

[F00lishG]

 In Mass Effect 2 you refused to have anything to do with Maelon's research. I figured that would mean you wouldn't care what I did with the research. Yet you chewed me out for destroying it.

In Mass Effect 2 you were slowly becoming the savior of your people. Any  positive attempts to tip the balance would make your control over the Krogan null and void as they would ignore you and continue being slaughter jockeys. Thus the genophage is actually good for your people and for you. Yet you tried to kill me when I did the right thing-for you!

Dammit Wrex, you are so complicated-like women. I don't get you.

Modifié par F00lishG, 30 mai 2012 - 04:14 .

[His Name was HYR!!]

 You're seriously shocked that Wrex doesn't want his race to go extinct?

Wrex's reforms in ME2 were only a Band-Aid solution to a serious and growing problem.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 30 mai 2012 - 04:58 .

[F00lishG]

Didn't seem like a band-aid. There was much progress.

Modifié par F00lishG, 30 mai 2012 - 05:04 .

[His Name was HYR!!]

F00lishG wrote...

Didn't seem like a band-aid. There was much progress.

What, that he united their clans? That's hardly a long-term solution for the survival of a species, both endangered and nearly sterilized, with a Reaper harvesting cycle knocking at the door.

[F00lishG]

...Good point. I think I understand Wrex better now thanks.

[Quething]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

F00lishG wrote...

Didn't seem like a band-aid. There was much progress.

What, that he united their clans? That's hardly a long-term solution for the survival of a species, both endangered and nearly sterilized, with a Reaper harvesting cycle knocking at the door.

Wrex himself says in ME1, and Mordin and Okeer both repeat in ME2, that the krogan are not actually in any danger of going extinct if they get over themselves. The salarians perfectly replicated the pre-Uplift death rate for krogan. It makes their population growth sustainable, not negative.

The problem is a psychological one. The salarians, somehow, failed to anticipate that thousands of stillborn children would have a negative effect on krogan optimism. In essence, the krogan stopped caring. They left Tuchanka, gave up on trying to have children at all, and went and got themselves killed being mercenaries for stupid causes on Omega or whatever.

If the krogan stopped wasting their lives, rallied together around a strong leader, and focused on actually breeding and building themselves a future, they'd be fine.

Now, it may be unreasonable to ask them to be able to do that, given the impact the genophage has had on their culture, their psyche, and their actual physical evolution (check the codex on blood rage, which pre-genophage was actually pretty rare and is now, like, their default state). But Wrex actually looked like he was making some good strides, and I don't think there's any question that curing the genophage will severely weaken his current position of strength.

[MisterJB]

Wrex wasn't willing to torture subjects to cure the genophage. That doesn't mean he wants a potential cure destroyed.

The problem is that there is no middle term in the Genophage arc, you either cure it and trust Wrex and Eve to keep them in line or you don't and the krogan are doomed unless another leader like Wrex appears.
There is no option to convince Wrex the Genophage can be good for his people (mostly for our people but details) or at least that it doesn't have to mean the extinction of the krogan. 

And there is no option to create a different type of cure that would make all krogan fertile, completely removing the possibility of stillborns but also reducing the number of eggs a fertile female can produce to one or two like most sentient species. No more stillborns coupled with Wrex's leadership could lead towards a psychological and cultural change for the krogan.

It's true that an optimal solution could feel like a cop out but the Rannoch Arc has one.

Modifié par MisterJB, 30 mai 2012 - 06:40 .

[Mr. Big Pimpin]

MisterJB wrote...

There is no option to convince Wrex the Genophage can be good for his people (mostly for our people but details) or at least that it doesn't have to mean the extinction of the krogan. 

I kind of wish that there was a way to convince Legion that the geth don't need Reaper Code, too.

[Ushanka]

When extinction threat to your people you going to do everything to stop this, if you have opportunity.

[His Name was HYR!!]

Quething wrote...

Wrex himself says in ME1, and Mordin and Okeer both repeat in ME2, that the krogan are not actually in any danger of going extinct if they get over themselves. The salarians perfectly replicated the pre-Uplift death rate for krogan. It makes their population growth sustainable, not negative.

The problem is a psychological one. The salarians, somehow, failed to anticipate that thousands of stillborn children would have a negative effect on krogan optimism. In essence, the krogan stopped caring. They left Tuchanka, gave up on trying to have children at all, and went and got themselves killed being mercenaries for stupid causes on Omega or whatever.

If the krogan stopped wasting their lives, rallied together around a strong leader, and focused on actually breeding and building themselves a future, they'd be fine.

Now, it may be unreasonable to ask them to be able to do that, given the impact the genophage has had on their culture, their psyche, and their actual physical evolution (check the codex on blood rage, which pre-genophage was actually pretty rare and is now, like, their default state). But Wrex actually looked like he was making some good strides, and I don't think there's any question that curing the genophage will severely weaken his current position of strength.

Yes, but things change. On the way to Sur'Kesh, Wrex is saying that the females are is the best and possibly last hope for his people. So there's only one known fertile krogan female left in their whole race? To me, that's a sign that their numbers have dwindled down VERY low.

In any case, I do remember the things you bring up, and you are very right: the real battle between the krogan and the genophage is psychological, not physiological. That's actually why I think Wrex needs a cure at this very moment (beginning of the Reaper war) for the krogan to successfully win that battle.

What's hurting the krogan right now is many of their people who are stuck in old ways: staunch beliefs in preserving war-like attitudes, rivalries, fragmented clan culture. As Eve states herself when Shepard asks of the krogan ancients, that technology made their life too easy and they had these attitude problems long before uplift - the genophage only made that worse, too.

The good news is, there's a war with the Reapers. So all those old farts can go off to war and die. Meanwhile, back at home, krogan children are being born between clan lines because of Wrex's reforms. So Wrex will likely have fewer dissidents left to deal with as a result. The fact that he ruled over the genophage cure will only help his image among the krogan as well (Wreav will acknowledge this fact if he's in charge, but the same can apply to Wrex too).

Most importantly, however, is that while the old krogan are off fighting/dying in war, they will be replaced with a new generation of krogan, born between clan lines. Generational changes often entail changes in societal beliefs/values IRL, the same will likely result from a cured krogan population under Wrex. I think clan rivalries in particular will be the first major change, seeing as krogan clans are united and have been breeding between clan lines under Wrex.

Lastly, there are several things that a people can do to combat overpopulation. One of them is empowering females. Eve's survival is another big plus for that reason. She's not only a hero who's voice will carry weight and support Wrex, but how she supports empowering the females will also be invaluable. Females that are working and educated help bring down any population - because society no longer demands that they just stay home and get pregnant.

I agree the krogan haven't really proven they deserve a cure, but I think that the perfect storm is in place for to accept them back into the galactic community with Wrex in charge. Eve alive is a bonus. And I'd even argue that you could do it with Wreav-only, but that's another whole block-of-text.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 30 mai 2012 - 02:54 .

[Sarcastic Tasha]

Wrex was one of the more civil krogan we meet but even he was a complete nutter. Doesn't the genophage reduce the birth rate by something like a factor of 1000? Imagine there were a thousand times more krogan being born. They were a problem before the genophage I don't see how that's changed, if anything they've got worse. I don't expect Wrex to agree but he has no say in the matter. Maybe if the krogan encouraged their children to become scientists instead of mercenaries they could learn to cure the genophage themselves. But for some reason they'd rather kill each other instead of try to solve the problem.

[SaxAppeal47]

I also think you need to consider that Wrex and every Krogan you meet are born into a system of hopelessness that is multiple generations deep.
There is also the uplift to consider, the Krogan had just destroyed their home world, they went from post civilization straight to a galactic civilization, they had no real leadership, the Salarians pointed them at the Rachni and gave them more advanced technology then they had ever seen. They were set up to collapse from the start.

[Sarcastic Tasha]

Someone needs to introduce the salarians to the Prime Directive.

[swordmalice]

Sarcastic Tasha wrote...

Someone needs to introduce the salarians to the Prime Directive.

lol right? Too bad Shepard's no Kirk.

Oh, wait...

[BatmanPWNS]

Wrex is complicated............ that's why I got him killed in ME1. That and so I can get both Krogan and Salarians support.

[Sarcastic Tasha]

I love getting Ashley to shoot Wrex, Kaidan's reaction is priceless. Then you can tell Kirrahe to just dump Wrex's body if Shep wants to be extra harsh.