138 réponses à ce sujet

[AlisdairMAgain]

 Yes, there are many reasons.  In my case, my paragon got to the end of the game, faced down the illusive foe he had spent the game fighting, who told me 'control' is the only way.  Duly dispatched, the Star Child appears, and gives me my options.  I dutifully take the 'blue' paragon option to destroy these monsters, rather than take the renegade option of stealing the very plans of the villain I had been battling all game.

Lo! and Behold!  There is a big blue explosion and the entire universe is plunged into darkness.  I guess there is a cost for blowing up all that reaper tech, but yay good guys, we totally blew them up.

Wait, now I read the forums and I actually used the illusive plan?
I totally failed at the very last step of the game, in the biggest way possible?
AND I DIDN'T EVEN NOTICE!!!!

The last part is unforgivably sloppy story telling.  Bad on me for screwing up while the universe hangs in the balance.  Bad on Bioware that I had to read here what I had actually done!

(Yes, I saw the reapers leave, but that was simply being responsible and blowing them up where the explosions don't kill people - clearly the destruct called them into the mass relay network, the only way to safely destroy them all at once, at the expense of the relay network itself.  Hey, I hadn't see any other endings, and knew what I *thought* I had asked my shepherd to do)

[Cypher_CS]

Are you mad at Bioware for choosing something you didn't mean to choose instead of choosing correctly?
Or are you mad at Bioware for the... color pickings?

[AlisdairMAgain]

I am irritated because they cut scene did not clearly distinguish what had happened. I thought I had picked the opposite ending - and the cut scene was so generic I was none the wiser. That is an incredibly poor result from what is supposed to be the most monumental decision at the end of a deeply involving trilogy. I suspect the extended cut will at least correct this, if nothing else.

Picking the wrong end - my bad.
Ending so generic I don't realize - EA bad

[Devil Mingy]

The worst part of control to me is that you can just barely tell (if at that) that the relays aren't intended to be destroyed in that ending. If they had just given it its own cutscene instead of just quick-cutting the Destroy and Synthesis relay destruction (with blue light), it would've gotten the point across much better.

Then again, I'd hold a much higher opinion of the endings, if only in concept, if Bioware didn't get use practically the same cinematic in 3 different colors.

Modifié par Devil Mingy, 30 mai 2012 - 11:54 .

[G1MEE50K]

There was no real contrast as to the repercussions of decisions and what exactly will happen from these decisions, you also had no choice of investigating the catalyst, just accepting what he tells you. Not to mention the ending shreds every bit of series build up, leaving everything meaningless.

[EricHVela]

This explains what I think went wrong with the final choice.

I also feel something else went wrong before we even get to that point.

[Allan Schumacher]

Note, the open ended nature of the ending means you cannot definitively conclude whether the ending is good or bad compared to the others.

There's been a lot of discussion about the three choices, and a common topic that comes up is that some people feel they couldn't choose the Control ending because it's what The Illusive Man wanted.

It's perfectly justified for you to feel that the Control ending is the best and most ideal of the three choices presented to you though.

[EricHVela]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Note, the open ended nature of the ending means you cannot definitively conclude whether the ending is good or bad compared to the others.

There's been a lot of discussion about the three choices, and a common topic that comes up is that some people feel they couldn't choose the Control ending because it's what The Illusive Man wanted.

It's perfectly justified for you to feel that the Control ending is the best and most ideal of the three choices presented to you though.

But all we get are speculations for every choice. We have nothing solid as a reward for getting to an ending once and for all.

I get that someone wanted speculations for everyone, but I really don't believe that this was a good way to implement it.

[20x6]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Note, the open ended nature of the ending means you cannot definitively conclude whether the ending is good or bad compared to the others.

There's been a lot of discussion about the three choices, and a common topic that comes up is that some people feel they couldn't choose the Control ending because it's what The Illusive Man wanted.

It's perfectly justified for you to feel that the Control ending is the best and most ideal of the three choices presented to you though.

You mean "morally good or morally bad", right?

I can definitely conclude that the ending was bad...

[jla0644]

AlisdairMAgain wrote...
I am irritated because they cut scene did not clearly distinguish what had happened. I thought I had picked the opposite ending - and the cut scene was so generic I was none the wiser. That is an incredibly poor result from what is supposed to be the most monumental decision at the end of a deeply involving trilogy. I suspect the extended cut will at least correct this, if nothing else.

Picking the wrong end - my bad.
Ending so generic I don't realize - EA bad

You mean you don't like what you picked, or you think there is actually a "correct" choice that Bioware intended over the other two?

If it's the former, fine, play it again and choose something else.

If it's the latter, what makes you think so?

Modifié par jla0644, 31 mai 2012 - 12:15 .

[Allan Schumacher]

ReggarBlane wrote...

But all we get are speculations for every choice. We have nothing solid as a reward for getting to an ending once and for all.

I get that someone wanted speculations for everyone, but I really don't believe that this was a good way to implement it.

That's fine but it's actually a different topic

You mean "morally good or morally bad", right?

I can definitely conclude that the ending was bad...

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Bah. Worst ending to any game I've played in the past 30 yrs. And I've played a few doozies, and they've had better endings. I'm hoping the EC fixes it.

Crucible was fine. Reapers were way way over powered and needed a deus ex machina to defeat so the plot had gotten ridiculous, so don't try to get deep and philosphical and give us a choice of Rand, Brave New World, and Matrix Reloaded -- which BTW are all cliches. Just go for it: cliche action hero time. Kick ass and take names.

Would have loved the toolkit issued with the game to do a mod for the ending.

[CINCTuchanka]

Don't worry OP, I actually love the fact that other people chose differently than me. It's one of the few choices in ME3 that people actually argue over. Hopefully EC gives us more fuel for the discussion, but till then I wouldn't feel guilty.

[zovoes]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Note, the open ended nature of the ending means you cannot definitively conclude whether the ending is good or bad compared to the others.

There's been a lot of discussion about the three choices, and a common topic that comes up is that some people feel they couldn't choose the Control ending because it's what The Illusive Man wanted.

It's perfectly justified for you to feel that the Control ending is the best and most ideal of the three choices presented to you though.

they are all war crimes and could count as crimes against humanity, all of them. what about that makes any of them good?

[AlisdairMAgain]

jla0644 wrote...

You mean you don't like what you picked, or you think there is actually a "correct" choice that Bioware intended over the other two?

If it's the former, fine, play it again and choose something else.

If it's the latter, what makes you think so?

I mean I am not happy that having made a different choice than the one I thought I had made, the end result was not distinct enough that I noticed.  This is the most monumental, important decision in the trilogy (in principle).  I really should be able to tell at a glance if I picked a different option than I thought!

[zovoes]

AlisdairMAgain wrote...

jla0644 wrote...

You mean you don't like what you picked, or you think there is actually a "correct" choice that Bioware intended over the other two?

If it's the former, fine, play it again and choose something else.

If it's the latter, what makes you think so?

I mean I am not happy that having made a different choice than the one I thought I had made, the end result was not distinct enough that I noticed.  This is the most monumental, important decision in the trilogy (in principle).  I really should be able to tell at a glance if I picked a different option than I thought!

well then make up the difference man. you are not doing the ending right and not getting their art if you are not making the ending up yourself. i wish i was just making that up but that is how they wanted it, it's a cop out i know but thats all you get.

[chemiclord]

Oh hey! It's this thread again!

[EricHVela]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...

But all we get are speculations for every choice. We have nothing solid as a reward for getting to an ending once and for all.

I get that someone wanted speculations for everyone, but I really don't believe that this was a good way to implement it.

That's fine but it's actually a different topic

Actually, I missed making my point. It's a moral vacuum. We are left with speculations and no foundations to make a moral judgment for ourselves. We have to try to head-canonize the endings, but in the end, it's still just head-canon. Some part of us is always stuck wondering if it's the way things happened or not.

Speculations on the consequences of a moral judgment that affects the entire fate of everything Shepard knows leaves everyone hanging.

Any morality of the choices become meaningless. The ultimate moral decision has no basis for people to place their the morality upon it.

[Lyrebon]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Note, the open ended nature of the ending means you cannot definitively conclude whether the ending is good or bad compared to the others.

There's been a lot of discussion about the three choices, and a common topic that comes up is that some people feel they couldn't choose the Control ending because it's what The Illusive Man wanted.

Among other reasons.

The problems we have with the endings are that they are objectively bad narrative and incoherent. It's true, the Control ending is the Illusive Man's choice but we're not allowed to question that choice.

Worse still, there's no closure to any of the endings because the consequence of our actions are never revealed. Across all of the endings the only definitive facts we have is that the Normandy is on an Eden world, the Reapers are defeated, annnnd... nothing else.

The failure to clarify the consequences of our choices leaves us hollow. But this isn't an indication that a claraification will make the ending better; the literary nature of the endings are irrepairable without a complete overhaul.

"Open-ended" is not synonymous with "good".

[Allan Schumacher]

zovoes wrote...

they are all war crimes and could count as crimes against humanity, all of them. what about that makes any of them good?

My comment to being "good or bad" was explicitly concerning how they are relative to one another.  Which still actually fits your idea that they are each war crimes.  If they are all roughly equivalent in how much they are war crimes, then no choice is any better or worse than the other choices.  They are equivalent.

I agree that none of the options are really "good."  Personally that's what I like about them.  I think the execution of the ending could be better, but the fundamental choices that are provided are actually very interesting for me.  The only thing missing is a 4th "do nothing" option, but the "jerk developer" in me would make that result in a situation where the fleet puts up a good fight, but ultimately ends with Shepard and Co. fighting to preserve their knowledge (Liara's project) and fire it off for another cycle to discover.  If done well I think it still could have been very powerful too.

Similar to Legion's loyalty mission, though,  I found the ending made me pause for a moment and more seriously evaluate the consequences of my actions.  I wanted to defeat the reapers, but at what cost?

Actually, I missed making my point. It's a moral vacuum. We are left
with speculations and no foundations to make a moral judgment for
ourselves. We have to try to head-canonize the endings, but in the end,
it's still just head-canon. Some part of us is always stuck wondering if
it's the way things happened or not.

Speculations on the
consequences of a moral judgment that affects the entire fate of
everything Shepard knows leaves everyone hanging.

Any morality of
the choices become meaningless. The ultimate moral decision has no
basis for people to place their the morality upon it.

I'm ambivalent towards the open ended ending.  I don't really mind it, but I don't think I would have necessarily enjoyed the ending more if a full epilogue also existed.  Both have there merits IMO.

In terms of making the choice, I prefer an open ended ending.  This prevents any choice from being the "wrong" choice, and makes the choices more a reflection about the player/Shepard and what they feel is the best decision.  It tells a slightly different story than one that has full epilogues, where I feel more weight would be placed on the aftermath of the choice made, rather than the choice itself.  Having the full epilogues also enables the player to make a choice based on information that Shepard actually cannot.  I found it interesting that, while there being some additional information, we don't reall see much more than what Shepard already knows.  We have to make the same difficult decision not knowing the full effect of our actions, the same way that Shepard must.

While an open ended ending lets you morally justify your decision, the full epilogue effectively has the writers judge the player on their decision.  Whether or not the decision was a good one to make is now determined by the contents of the epilogue.  It does provide closure, but is actually still just as susceptible to being disappointing for the gamer.  Closure works well if it fits in line with what you're expecting or hoping for.  If I pick the destroy ending thinking it's the best option, and it turns out that by wiping out the Geth total anarchy happens and the galaxy dies a horrible death, well that still kind of sucks.  But if the epilogue were to show the Quarians mourning the Geth, and attempting to recreate them to atone for their past actions, ultimately succeeding and having the Geth/Quarians working together and proving the Catalyst wrong, I think it'd be better received.  So it really depends on what is provided.  I loved the epilogues in Baldur's Gate saga, as well as Fallout 1 and 2, so I'm not at all against them.

[20x6]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

ReggarBlane wrote...

But all we get are speculations for every choice. We have nothing solid as a reward for getting to an ending once and for all.

I get that someone wanted speculations for everyone, but I really don't believe that this was a good way to implement it.

That's fine but it's actually a different topic

You mean "morally good or morally bad", right?

I can definitely conclude that the ending was bad...

Good answer.... 

[The Night Mammoth]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

In terms of making the choice, I prefer an open ended ending.  This prevents any choice from being the "wrong" choice, and makes the choices more a reflection about the player/Shepard and what they feel is the best decision.

To target this specific point; half the fanbase has come to that conclusion anyway. 

Having multiple well-explained endings with merits at least means when people argue they have a basis for comparing them. 

Right now, destroy is undoubtadely the most popular and most people simply dismiss the other two as betrayals of various things about the story. Even I, who chooses control, would argue that synthesis is wrong. 

If you're going to do open ended finale, you best be prepared and support it. Evidently, it was not supported. 

[Devil Mingy]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

In terms of making the choice, I prefer an open ended ending.  This prevents any choice from being the "wrong" choice, and makes the choices more a reflection about the player/Shepard and what they feel is the best decision.

To target this specific point; half the fanbase has come to that conclusion anyway. 

Having multiple well-explained endings with merits at least means when people argue they have a basis for comparing them. 

Right now, destroy is undoubtadely the most popular and most people simply dismiss the other two as betrayals of various things about the story. Even I, who chooses control, would argue that synthesis is wrong. 

If you're going to do open ended finale, you best be prepared and support it. Evidently, it was not supported. 

I think what gives Destroy a lot of power (besides the fact that "destroy the reapers" has been a goal throughout the game and we have been bashed over the head that "control the reapers" is stupid and foolish) is that it is the most clearly defined of the choices. We destroy the Reapers at the cost of synthetic life/technology. Control and Synthesis are cryptic enough to be interpreted in multiple ways both in regards to Shepard's fate and exactly how it relates to the organic vs synthetic issue. 

As for the argument between open ending or not, I am willing to accept an ending that doesn't resolve everything. However, I expect it to resolve at least two or three things. There is a big difference between letting the audience imagine what happens next and forcing the audience to write the ending of the story for you. The story as it stands should stand on its own with speculation and forum debate being a nice optional activity. It shouldn't be required to have any sort of resolution.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I had all three endings pop up in my first play through. I went straight for the red tube. I didn't give it a second thought.

* Blue: You die.
* Green: You die.
* Red: They die. <<<<<<

Not a difficult choice at all.

Still thought ending didn't fit the story. I don't like open endings.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 31 mai 2012 - 01:45 .

[sliverofamoon]

G1MEE50K wrote...

There was no real contrast as to the repercussions of decisions and what exactly will happen from these decisions, you also had no choice of investigating the catalyst, just accepting what he tells you. Not to mention the ending shreds every bit of series build up, leaving everything meaningless.

First succint post, that sums up everything in a nutshell about all that is wrong with the endings. Bravo! *claps.* I've seen 5,000 words say it less clearly!

(And no, that is not sarcasm. )