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Why the ending failed


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#101
Helios969

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Allan Schumacher wrote...


iakus wrote...




How is that a good thing? If all the endings are the same, then why even have an ending cinematic?

Endings don't need to be the same to not be definitively "better" endings compared to other endings.  When I said no ending is "good or bad compared to the others" I mean that it's perfectly justifiable for someone to feel that the choice they made was the best choice for the galaxy of the options available to them.  I'm not talking about whether or not the endings are of good or bad quality in this context, but whether or not they are desirable when compared to the other endings.

Deus Ex is a great example of a game where all 3 endings (which are all different) have merit to them and you can make an argument why any of the endings is the best ending.


But this goes to a point I've raised on a number of occasions.  Is it EA/BW's objective to make art? or is it to sell games to the masses?  Ideally, you want to do both, but objectively and ultimately as a corporate entity you need to cater to the masses tastes.  Otherwise less people are inclined to play the product at potentially the cost of any artistic pursuit at all.  It's a fine line to be sure.

Modifié par Helios969, 31 mai 2012 - 05:55 .


#102
ShepnTali

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Nyoka wrote...

Imagine other decisions of the trilogy written like that.

You can set the rachni queen free... but then she kills Garrus! Why Garrus? AND WHY NOT?


I was hoping for something like this, actually. A negative outcome on an emotional level you don't see coming. Like Spiderman letting the thug go free, then finding the thug later murders his uncle.

#103
TransientNomad

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My biggest issue, one that has been handwaved by pretty much every Bioware employee, is the issue that every ending is a different brand of failure, not win. And that seems to be what the head writers wanted. To deliver a unsatisfying, failure ending to be more "original" and "artistic" no matter promising that "your choices matter," 16 endings tailored to the player's choice, no ABC choice, etc.

Destroy eliminates allies along with the reapers, and plunges the entire galaxy into a dark age in which millions more will die from lack of supplies or the Civil wars that will erupt by people trying to grab power in its vacuum. This is a complete failure. Pretty much the same with synthesis, except the Reapers are still there and everyone has glowing skin. In fact, it would be worse as various powers scramble to upgrade themselves faster than the next guy to gain power, and the weapons that would come out of it would be so much more devestating. The only way synthesis will not do the EXACT same thing as destroy is if everyone is programed to be a certain way, which even if everyone is programed to be "nice" its a face far worse than death.

Finally, you have control, in which if you take into account every time a organic or even synthetic wanted to control the Reapers, they were manipulated in turn. Sure, some tech was positive AS LONG AS it was FAR removed from the Reapers conciousness as possible. EDI's AI was first a Alliance VI that became self-aware THEN was upgraded with bits of Reaper tech. Shep's control would last only as long as it took him to either go insane like Archer did, or subtely indoctrinated over the course of time. To say otherwise, to think otherwise, you are ignoring all the canon and history of Mass Effect. And even then, it was already established that Reapers are independent and have free will. This was established way back in ME1 and in ME2. Suddenly they can be controlled? And if that is okay with you then fine, but know you are being illogical.

In any case, I digress. If you wanted a bit of bittersweetness in the ending, Bioware failed to do that. The ending should have had one thing in them. Reaper's die. Then the narrative would have shifted to the consequences of your actions throughout the series.

Help the Krogan with the Genophage? Then the salarian government breaks down into a civil war, with a huge chunk of the conservative part withdrawing from the Citadel space. However, under Wrex's leadership, the Krogon join the Citadel. If you sabotage the Genophage cure, then the Salarian's stay with the Citadel, their tech allows the relief effort to go much more smoothly, but the Krogan feeblely rebel leading to their extinction.

Didn't let Garrus shoot that traitor back in ME2? Well following your noble example, Garrus die's saving the lives of fellow troops by noblely sacraficing himself to hold off pirate forces. If you let him shoot the traitor, he becomes a cold bounty-hunter/assassin hunting down various criminals, and slowly grows more detached.

Unite the Geth and the Quarians? Conservative sects of the Quarians retreat from Rannoch refusing to work with the Geth, becoming terrorists looking for a way to obliterate the Geth. However, many Quarian's embrace the Geth this time, and while there is a struggle, they work towards peace, and understanding. Wipe out the Geth? The Quarian's struggle to adapt to their new life, but their strong bonds keep them united. There is peace on Rannoch. Wipe out the Quarians? The Geth are at peace, and surprisingly, they ask to join the Council. After several decades, they are accepted, and oversee the development and regulation of AI's, loyally serving to ensure that beings like the Reapers are never created while at the same time striving for equality and understanding between AI and organics.


And those are just a few things that could have left players feeling satisfied while still maintaining a degree of bittersweetness to the ending. As it stands now, if I pop in Mass Effect 1, I know that no matter what happens, at the end, you still lose. It reminds me from a scene in the comedy Johnny Dangerously where at a Casino there is a game called "You Lose", where people throw money on a card table, and the "dealer" takes the money saying "You lose, sorry! Better luck next time!" and the "player" snaps his fingers in frustration expecting they had a chance to win.

#104
M0keys

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Gogzilla wrote...

Allan Schumacher sure likes to argue semantics :l

Let me ask you a question to clarify what you been saying.
Considering all the feed back and backlash over the ending,
Can it be said that the ending to ME3 does not work as a result of its open ended nature and/or execution of content.
So it may actually need more closure and an epilogue sequence reflected past choices.


I think the fact that there is ending DLC in the works is a fair enough assessment on whether or not the endings for ME3 worked as they are.

Now are you saying that the 'problems the fans have' may be because ME3 ending as an open ending is not executed to the level that is satisfactory to those fans.

Is it not possible that the problem may be the fact that it is as open ended as it is , and it needs the epilogue sequence ?



At the same time, there ARE people that do enjoy the ME3 endings.  Particularly the open ended nature of them. 


i think my problem is that the endings all seem like straight up symbolism/dream imagery. this would be okay in a series that dealt almost entirely in metaphors and symbolism. for example, silent hill functions like that from the onset. start that way and everyone expects an ending steeped in dream symbols. now, i know i shouldnt have to say it, but mass effect isn't silent hill. losing or winning the war had very "real" consequences for you, your pals, and the rest of the galaxy. making it all symbolic suddenly turns everything players were trying to do into a loose dream where the consequences of your existence only mattered peripherally, and the ultimate victory was over a concept, not an actual murderous villain who will kill all your friends if you fail.

and if open-endedness is okay, then why were you playing? what was the point? people stop bad guys (hitler, hussein, etc) so that after the bad guys are stopped, we know our friends will go on living. unless it's an issue that actually can have a one-shot resolution, like revenge.. pretty sure that's not why most people fought the reapers though..

#105
Jere85

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You say alot of people liked the ending, what do you mean with alot of people?
What is biowares thought process on this anyway? That people who did not like the ending are still the minority or? Im genuinely curious because i do hope they realise we are not the minority here.

Im just saying this because i believe its indeed unfair to change anything for the people who like the endings, but it would be similar to do nothing for those that are appauled by the endings.
Especially if the ratio is 90% hate, 10% like.

Id like to think the ratio is like that, unfortunately we will not know. Vocal and silent consumers have a way of making polls strange :P

#106
Kunari801

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Allan Schumacher wrote...
... Deus Ex is a great example of a game where all 3 endings (which are all different) have merit to them and you can make an argument why any of the endings is the best ending. 


I believed they were shooting for that in ME3, they just missed the target.   I also believe it because a mix oif rushed schedule (time crunch), exaustion (tired), and team-think or in-the-know-think.  

In short: "The team was telling one story but us players were experiencing a different story"  

When you rush someone they are likely to make mistakes.  When someone is tried they are likely to make mistakes.   When you rush someone who's also tired, you're asking for disaster.  

The team knew the story they wanted to tell so they had background information that us players did not have not was it added (or not enough) into the storyline to give us players that information.    So us players were not on the same-page as the dev team.   I believe if the team had the time they would have noticed this and corrected it prior to release.  

I still want a expanded DA:O type ending with cinematic epilogues with voice overs.   Shepard's funeral, LI reunion, scenes of the galaxy rebuilding, etc.   I thnk you guys on the DA:O team did a great job with that ending and I wish the ME3 team had "borrowed" from your example. 


Jere85 wrote...
... Especially if the ratio is 90% hate, 10% like.

Id like to think the ratio is like that, unfortunately we will not know. Vocal and silent consumers have a way of making polls strange :P

 

Out of my own personal network of people I know only ONE liked ME3's ending, and he really head-canon Control to mean more that what we see in game.  The rest of us thirty-odd people did NOT like the endings most like me were pissed about it with others disappointed. 

Same group people LOVED ME2 and ME1. 


Edit: Head canon guy: Rebuilt the relays and helped the planets rebuild/recover then a year or two later threw the Reapers into the sun, then returned in a new Shepard body. :blink:

Modifié par Kunari801, 31 mai 2012 - 06:06 .


#107
Mcfly616

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Helios969 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

An open.ended conclusion has never and will never work as the end of a trilogy (The Matrix Trilogy: FAIL).....Mass Effect is not Inception......Notice how Inception got rave reviews and praise over its ending.....and Mass Effect got major backlash.....

Hmm because ambiguous/vague endings only work for standalone stories.....not the "end" of a trilogy....


No...the ending is not good.....its the weakest link of the ME trilogy.....and you're only as strong as your weakest link


I don't know that I agree with you assessment ambiguous/vague endings only work as standalones.  Loved the Matrix trilogy, but then again the whole "what is real" was established early on and reoccurring.  Of course, I also didn't see Matx-trilogy as having an open-ended conclusion.  Man and machine at war, during course of war a larger menace threatens both of their existence, man fights on behalf of both man and machine demonstrating peaceful coexistence is possible.  You could draw some parallels to Geth/Quarian relationship.

Hell, one of my major complaints about the existing ending is that there is no peaceful coexistence solution (along with Indepedence Day-like destroy option that doesn't obliterate my Shep;)  Not that a peace would entail Shep putting his arm around Harbinger and saying "we forgive you."  But a wary peace could be obtained if certain criteria was met in previous play/choice options.

EDIT: Open-ending doesn't work for ME3 and Shep's story.



You just described why an.ambiguous ending doesn't work for a trilogy.....it works.for standalone stories....or even the middle part of a trilogy(Empire Strikes Back, Halo2).....

A trilogy needs a proper conclusion.....and when I say ambiguous ending, I.mean an ending that leaves "what happened" up to the audiences imagination.....I'm not saying they shpuld reveal every secret of the universe to us.....I can appreciate the mystery surrounding certain things(i.e. the Reapers purpose)....but leaving everything up for interpretation, has never and will never work....

If you could provide a trilogy that had an ambiguous/vague ending that actually worked, please by all means, tell me lol.....

The conclusion of a saga is supposed to definitively conclude the storylines of its main characters......not leave you wondering what happened to any of them

#108
Iakus

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Mcfly616 wrote...

You just described why an.ambiguous ending doesn't work for a trilogy.....it works.for standalone stories....or even the middle part of a trilogy(Empire Strikes Back, Halo2).....

A trilogy needs a proper conclusion.....and when I say ambiguous ending, I.mean an ending that leaves "what happened" up to the audiences imagination.....I'm not saying they shpuld reveal every secret of the universe to us.....I can appreciate the mystery surrounding certain things(i.e. the Reapers purpose)....but leaving everything up for interpretation, has never and will never work....

If you could provide a trilogy that had an ambiguous/vague ending that actually worked, please by all means, tell me lol.....

The conclusion of a saga is supposed to definitively conclude the storylines of its main characters......not leave you wondering what happened to any of them


Indeed. 

A good "open ending" leaves the audience going "what happens next?"
a bad ending leaves the audience going "what just happened?"

Guess which one ME3 had Posted Image

If we knew for sure what changes the endings wroght on the galaxy, good or bad, that would have been a "good" ending.  At least as far as openness goes.  We know how this story ended, even if we don't know what the next story will be about.

It's like Zathras in Babylon 5 pointing out the three "Ones"

"You are the beginning of the story"
"And you are the middle of the story"
"And you are the end of the story, which starts the next great story"

but we don't know how ME3 ended, save some lights, a few lines from the Catalyst, and some vague, mainly symbolic, imagery.  The few details we have mainly conjure up unsettling, even depressing thoughts concerning the price Shepard paid.

#109
Helios969

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Mcfly616 wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

An open.ended conclusion has never and will never work as the end of a trilogy (The Matrix Trilogy: FAIL).....Mass Effect is not Inception......Notice how Inception got rave reviews and praise over its ending.....and Mass Effect got major backlash.....

Hmm because ambiguous/vague endings only work for standalone stories.....not the "end" of a trilogy....


No...the ending is not good.....its the weakest link of the ME trilogy.....and you're only as strong as your weakest link


I don't know that I agree with you assessment ambiguous/vague endings only work as standalones.  Loved the Matrix trilogy, but then again the whole "what is real" was established early on and reoccurring.  Of course, I also didn't see Matx-trilogy as having an open-ended conclusion.  Man and machine at war, during course of war a larger menace threatens both of their existence, man fights on behalf of both man and machine demonstrating peaceful coexistence is possible.  You could draw some parallels to Geth/Quarian relationship.

Hell, one of my major complaints about the existing ending is that there is no peaceful coexistence solution (along with Indepedence Day-like destroy option that doesn't obliterate my Shep;)  Not that a peace would entail Shep putting his arm around Harbinger and saying "we forgive you."  But a wary peace could be obtained if certain criteria was met in previous play/choice options.

EDIT: Open-ending doesn't work for ME3 and Shep's story.



A trilogy needs a proper conclusion.....and when I say ambiguous ending, I.mean an ending that leaves "what happened" up to the audiences imagination.....I'm not saying they shpuld reveal every secret of the universe to us.....I can appreciate the mystery surrounding certain things(i.e. the Reapers purpose)....but leaving everything up for interpretation, has never and will never work....

If you could provide a trilogy that had an ambiguous/vague ending that actually worked, please by all means, tell me lol.....


Nothing comes to mind, but then I hate conclusion-less endings, so I wouldn't necessarily seek out such media.  I still don't see what trilogy or standalone has to do with open-to-interpretation endings.  Maybe you're correct in your assessment, but I'd think it would be more an issue of whether it was setup properly and well written.  I obviously don't think that happened with ME.  It had plenty of good moments overshadowed it's ending (if you can even call it such.)

#110
antares_sublight

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Allan Schumacher wrote...
The thing I was trying to illustrate was that a more open ended ending places more emphasis on the decision, and the justification for the decision, rather than the explicit consequences of the decision that you get with epilogues.

It's disheartening to continually hear BioWare speak as if this is the actual issue (when it's just a cop-out to avoid recognizing the deeper failures). The very concept of the endings is flawed in itself. Lack of understanding of the consequences is an issue, but only comes after the fact that the ending choices themselves are disjointed from the rest of the series.

Allan Schumacher wrote...
At the same time, there ARE people that do enjoy the ME3 endings.

Repeated assertions of this don't help BioWare's case. Excuse to cop-out.

#111
Reddof Nonnac

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Reddof Nonnac wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

...

Whereas a game like Fallout doesn't actually provide any real choice at the end, but the epilogue nature of it shows the consequences of the choices you made throughout the game. If you want the moment to be about the choice itself, I think an open ended ending can work really well because you're left only with your own internal justifications about why that is the correct choice.


This is I think why I have no real issue with the choices as they are on a fundamental level. I think if the execution of them was a bit better done they would have been received a lot better, even if the choices were not any different.

 
But by what you’re saying, while Fallout didn’t give you a choice at the end, it did give the player the one thing the ME3 ending really didn’t, and that is your choices though out the game mattered!


That's fair and I understand that criticism with the ending of ME3.  ME3's ending could have easily been a single choice but have the divergence be in the epilogues for the choices players made throughout the game (or even the whole series).

When I brought up Fallout, I think I was more postulating that epilogues may be better served if there isn't choice at just the end.


 Ah yeah I definately agree with you there.

I do also want to say thank you for conversing with us on these forums.  I know right now it probably requires a flack jacket a lot of the time but it's good to see it. 

#112
Kunari801

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iakus wrote...
It's like Zathras in Babylon 5.. 

...but we don't know how ME3 ended, save some lights, a few lines from the Catalyst, and some vague, mainly symbolic, imagery.  The few details we have mainly conjure up unsettling, even depressing thoughts concerning the price Shepard paid.

I loved B5!  "Zathras can never have anything nice"  So many great characters in B5 :wub:

Agreed, the open-ending of ME3 sets up a very grim picture no matter what color you choose. 

#113
Sesshaku

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The problem with the ending is that:
- There's a lot of new "magic" information that doesn't feel at all worthy of the previous game, and that doesn't have any sense to me, at all.
- The 3 choices, are actually 1 with some 2@# that "changes the entire universe". But what we actually get is:
a) Same consequences about the topics the we saw during the games (Reapers menace stopped, Sherpard and crew may survive, mass relays destroyed, whole fleet on solar system, organic life may be at risk of incommunication).
B) Different consequences about what the universe will become that doesn't actually matter. If we choose synthesis, control, or destroy, what's the difference?. We don't know at all how that's going to change the future, and if we ever do (through a new game) Bioware would have to choose "one true ending" so for many of us, it wouldn't actually change anything. And what its worst, i don't know about others, but  for me, it didn't felt important at all, because i made the choice based on mere speculations while at the same time i was trying to understand why the reapers were so stupid. To make an analogy, the final choice was as significant to me as choosing a,b or c on a multiple choice test from wich i haven't read anything, or like choosing what cable should i cut to defuse a bomb, red, green, or blue, i have no idea, i don't know anything about bombs, and I still don't get why would anyone put a bomb on my house, so as you see, even when the "consequences are big", I didn't make a choice at all, i just throw dices and that won't even matter if the next game choose another option or if the EC explains them further, my Shepard would still make a choice based on nothing just for "let's give this one a shot". Awesome.

All that is combined with one of the worst cinematic direction i've ever seen (the cutscenes of the ending were just....they were....argh...), no reasonable answers for ANYTHING of what we were promised to get an answe, and an ending so open and wtf that many people actually prefer to believe the last 5 minutes of the game were just a dream.

I mean seriously, the ending was very very far away from good art. It felt cheap and rushed the whole time. So i don't know what you guys are doing with the EC, but i hope you take it slower this time.

Modifié par Sesshaku, 31 mai 2012 - 06:58 .


#114
Mcfly616

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What's sad is that the Gears trilogy(a good action series with a very cliche and mediocre story) had a more fitting conclusion than Mass Effect did.....there was sacrifice(that wasn't meaningless). There was a conclusion to the characters stories....oh, and they even left the player wondering "what comes next?".....as opposed to "wtf just happened?!"

Yes.....very sad.....that a lackluster "linear" story, concluded more appropriately than one of the best stories in gaming(probably because there wasn't a conclusion to Mass Effect....we have to "imagine" it......






Oh....I'm sorry.....did I say "imagine"?......I meant "speculate"


FAIL

#115
sH0tgUn jUliA

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The main problem I have with the ending of the Shepard trilogy, and I'm calling it the Shepard trilogy is because they've said it isn't the end of Mass Effect, but the end of Shepard's story arc, although I can already see a point where they left themselves an out, but that's another thread.

Back to my original sentence... The main problem I have with the ending is that it doesn't fit with the pace of the story. The subject matter "we bring order to the chaos" was brought up in ME1 by Sovereign. Fine. "We are your salvation through your destruction." in ME2. Fine. And now the war.

Yes, the war. This war has been going on between reapers and organics for a billion years, at least. But even the reapers started small. They didn't start with enough ships to blacken the sky of every world. Some race who probably built the entire system of Mass Relays (including a big one in darkspace), Citadel, Starbrat was so full of self-loathing they had themselves and every other race in the galaxy harvested by their creations, the reapers, and put them on a timer to do this. So there were probably about 15 in the beginning. They called it ascension.

The whole premise that they can't be stopped is just mind boggling, and given what they do to worlds after they harvest them, there simply are not enough worlds in the galaxy capable of supporting life for them to have been able to do this for so long at regular 50,000 yr intervals. They've always used the same strategy. So this means 1) there aren't as many of them as we think there are; 2) this time it's different.

The plot is cheesy and filled with one-liners. It's not your "pure RPG". It's a sci-fi action-RPG-shooter featuring our favorite action hero, Commander Shepard, who has more one-liner renegade interrupts per 2 hrs of game than Arnold Schwarzenegger did in his 1980s action movies, and the one liners are just as cheesy, and we love them. Of course the pure paragon players don't see this side of the game. Their loss.

I play Shepard in her glorious badassery. And does Shepard wear her N7 armor in the game? No. Why? She's the action hero. Action heroes wear something over the top, like Blood Dragon Armor. Action heroes try ryncol. Action heroes throw bad guys out windows on the 30th floor. Action heroes swear when their big assed gun (Cain) doesn't work (glitch) and then take out the boss (human proto-reaper) with a Carnifex and biotics.

Action heroes do stupid things, like fly a fighter up into the bottom of the Citadel and land it in the council chamber and open the arms. Oh wait, that would have actually been logical... No the stupid thing was running across a glassed crater of no-man's land guarded by a capital ship (where someone has been kind enough to plant some ornamental shrubbery), where water was flowing uphill, and this capital ship was firing at everyone charging at the beam. -- you know the beam. The one the reapers were tossing humans into to be made into goop? That one. Then a laser from the ship probably set to "stun" NEARLY hit our action hero -- reapers don't want to kill Shepard. They WANT Shepard.

(For the reapers wanting Shepard I refer you to all the Harbinger conversations in ME2: "Surrender and you will be spared." "If I must destroy you, Shepard, I will." "We are your destiny." They wanted Shepard alive. Shepard was needed because Shepard wasn't indoctrinated.)

Then things go wonky. Suddenly that Eviscerator she was carrying is gone and a pistol is in her hand. And someone explain how she managed to change clothes? Or rather, WHO changed her clothes? No longer in that Blood Dragon Armor I'd paid 50,000 CR, but in charred N7 armor. And where did that "Shepard you're bleeding." "I don't have time to bleed" attitude go?

This is where everything stopped making sense. This is where the writers passed "Go" on the way to the funny farm. Why was Saren, for example, able to shoot the keepers in ME1, but Shepard unable to do so with that pistol? No I'm not going by Indoctrination Theory. I'm going by the "Lack of Peer Review Theory".:whistle:

So we get to the Anderson/TIM scene where TIM is playing puppetmaster, followed by shooting TIM via interrupt -- Shepard still has a little bit of spunk left. Then Anderson dies which was a cliche scene that always works. But then we get the elevator to WTFland which I assume is the level of the crucible right above where Anderson bought the farm.

And here's another place where I have a major problem with the ending. It simply didn't make any sense. Starbrat explains its twisted and faulty logic, Shepard makes a lame attempt at challenging, and Starbrat shoots it down. Apparently challenging anything isn't going to work because no matter what Starbrat is 100% correct because Starbrat is flawless. <_< I wanted to pick it up and throw it over the side in an "Hasta la vista, baby." moment. But alas, Shepard was now Mac's Shepard, not mine. So Starbrat tells me that my being there means that its solutions won't work anymore and it came up with three new solutions, and tells me that I have choice, more than I know. Wow!!!

1) Control - I die. I lose everything I have. The reapers will obey me. The mass relays will be destroyed.
2) Destroy - I can destroy all synthetic life (including the Geth), and the reapers, and Starbrat. Even I am part synthetic - but what does this mean? But tells me that my children will eventually create synthetics and the cycle will start again. The mass relays will be destroyed.
3) Synthesis - I die. I rewrite the genetic code of every living creature in the galaxy to be part synthetic and part organic. I do this without their permission. The cycles end. The mass relays will be destroyed.

Wow. This is some choice. I destroy galactic civilization in all endings. I am guaranteed death in two of them. Starbrat and the reapers survive in two of them. So this tells me that only one ending is even remotely good -- Destroy. Synthesis means people will never look at their toaster the same. I don't see the point of control other than an Ayn Rand power trip. Two of them mean you've given up hope. But they are all bad. All of them are bad. Sophie's Choice Dilemma.

This is an open ending? No. This is the ending where Mac and Casey decide "We're taking our toys and going home ending." There is simply no good choice in this ending. They are all bad. Where is this choice? Shepard lights a cigar.

"Look you little ****er. (blows smoke in Starbrat's face) I'm not playing your game anymore. Joker, you copy?"
"Yes, Commander."
"Send in a shuttle for pickup and plan 'B'."
"Roger that, Commander."
Starbrat asks, "What's plan 'B'"
"A big surprise." :devil:  -- 50 MT antimatter nuke. Bye bye Citadel, Starbrat, AI of reaper brain.

#116
Allan Schumacher

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Helios969 wrote...

But this goes to a point I've raised on a number of occasions.  Is it EA/BW's objective to make art? or is it to sell games to the masses?  Ideally, you want to do both, but objectively and ultimately as a corporate entity you need to cater to the masses tastes.  Otherwise less people are inclined to play the product at potentially the cost of any artistic pursuit at all.  It's a fine line to be sure.



Ideally, as developers, we want to make the game that we want to make and hopefully the rest of the world agrees that it's awesome and buys it in droves.

As a developer, I understand that economies of scale are important and that making a game that ONLY I want isn't going to work very well for sustained development.  If I were to make a game that I think would have the widest appeal, it'd probably be an FPS in the vein of Modern Warfare games.  Or maybe some online social game instead.  Though that's not the type of game that I'm interested in playing, which means it's probably not the type of game I'd be very good at making either.


antares_sublight wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...
The
thing I was trying to illustrate was that a more open ended ending
places more emphasis on the decision, and the justification for the
decision, rather than the explicit consequences of the decision that you
get with epilogues.

It's disheartening to continually
hear BioWare speak as if this is the actual issue (when it's just a
cop-out to avoid recognizing the deeper failures). The very concept of the endings is flawed in itself. Lack of understanding of the consequences is an issue, but only comes after the fact that the ending choices themselves are disjointed from the rest of the series.


So I just don't get it?

Repeated assertions of this don't help BioWare's case. Excuse to cop-out.


If you feel that I'm just a shill making cop-out excuses, then that's that.

Take care.

#117
Kunari801

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Now you guys ran off Allan. He was at least talking to us.

Modifié par Kunari801, 31 mai 2012 - 07:40 .


#118
M0keys

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don't take what he's saying so personally, allan. he's just one guy and you know you're not a shill. just laugh him off, right?

Modifié par M0keys, 31 mai 2012 - 07:39 .


#119
Allan Schumacher

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I'm still reading the forums don't worry.  I haven't gone anywhere.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 31 mai 2012 - 07:44 .


#120
nightcobra

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

But this goes to a point I've raised on a number of occasions.  Is it EA/BW's objective to make art? or is it to sell games to the masses?  Ideally, you want to do both, but objectively and ultimately as a corporate entity you need to cater to the masses tastes.  Otherwise less people are inclined to play the product at potentially the cost of any artistic pursuit at all.  It's a fine line to be sure.



Ideally, as developers, we want to make the game that we want to make and hopefully the rest of the world agrees that it's awesome and buys it in droves.

As a developer, I understand that economies of scale are important and that making a game that ONLY I want isn't going to work very well for sustained development.  If I were to make a game that I think would have the widest appeal, it'd probably be an FPS in the vein of Modern Warfare games.  Or maybe some online social game instead.  Though that's not the type of game that I'm interested in playing, which means it's probably not the type of game I'd be very good at making either.


antares_sublight wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...
The
thing I was trying to illustrate was that a more open ended ending
places more emphasis on the decision, and the justification for the
decision, rather than the explicit consequences of the decision that you
get with epilogues.

It's disheartening to continually
hear BioWare speak as if this is the actual issue (when it's just a
cop-out to avoid recognizing the deeper failures). The very concept of the endings is flawed in itself. Lack of understanding of the consequences is an issue, but only comes after the fact that the ending choices themselves are disjointed from the rest of the series.


So I just don't get it?

Repeated assertions of this don't help BioWare's case. Excuse to cop-out.


If you feel that I'm just a shill making cop-out excuses, then that's that.

Take care.




even though you're most likely stating your honest opinions on the matter and and i respect them (though i heavily disagree with some of them), i can't really fault people for doubting the words of any bioware employee at this time, after being promised agency and variety in shepard's choices, Our choices and their outcomes while reassuring us at the same time that no players would experience an ending that is very similar to what other players got, it's easy to see why they would feel this way.
this was not a case of the players "not getting it", but rather the game and its developers failing to deliver on its promises and defending those mistakes as if that ending was the plan all along making those promises blatant lies, that sort of action is the kind that breaks the trust between consumer and developer. 

allan, you most likely don't deserve to be treated this way. However to me, Bioware has to prove itself before i ever buy any product from them again, no more pre-orders or day one new games, only from the bargain bin if at all,  the trust i had in bioware and their products is severely diminished and it will be a while before it can be rebuilt.

i wish you and the dragon age team all the best for your next project.

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 31 mai 2012 - 07:54 .


#121
Doctoglethorpe

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Allan Schumacher wrote...
It's perfectly justified for you to feel that the Control ending is the best and most ideal of the three choices presented to you though.


Its really not though since Bioware forced us to force Shepard to constantly argue against that every time he meets the Illusive Man.  And he doesn't just say its wrong because it won't work, he says its wrong because even if it did work no man should be given that much power.  Chosing control only makes Shepard the biggest hypocrit to ever exist because that means he decided "Actually I changed my mind, lolol!"  and thats regardless of what may or may not even actually happen from doing it which is still highly questionable (though that goes for all three endings which were forced to just take the starboys word that doing those things will have the claimed effect, which is just horrible writing)

#122
Allan Schumacher

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That's fine. But I don't think it's fair to outright dismiss the person that feels the costs with the other two endings are too high, and if I am able to control the Reapers and use them for the greater good of the Galaxy (including rebuilding it) then that's a better solution.

#123
sH0tgUn jUliA

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Doctor Moustache wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...
It's perfectly justified for you to feel that the Control ending is the best and most ideal of the three choices presented to you though.


Its really not though since Bioware forced us to force Shepard to constantly argue against that every time he meets the Illusive Man.  And he doesn't just say its wrong because it won't work, he says its wrong because even if it did work no man should be given that much power.  Chosing control only makes Shepard the biggest hypocrite to ever exist <snip>


You stated this well. This is exactly what Shepard was arguing. "No one should have that much power." or "We're not ready to have that much power." 

And if you look at what happens with the ending, and take Starbrat's word for it, Control is nothing more than the Ayn Rand power trip of her objectivist manifest, and they disguise it in "self-sacrifice." :facepalm:

Rebuilding the galaxy with the reapers is nothing but "head canon". And it's slavery of tens of thousands of sentient beings.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 31 mai 2012 - 08:04 .


#124
Kunari801

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

... If I were to make a game that I think would have the widest appeal, it'd probably be an FPS in the vein of Modern Warfare games.  Or maybe some online social game instead.  Though that's not the type of game that I'm interested in playing, which means it's probably not the type of game I'd be very good at making either. 


I don't care so much for the online social  games either.  Sure "Draw Something" and "Words With Friends" are neat quick distractions than a "real game" to me.  When I sit down to game, I want to immerse myself in a new world to play in and enjoy a great story.  That's why I loved BW games.   

Mass Effect has, or had, a pretty unique niche with deep story and fun action all in a interesting and rich SciFi setting.  I can't think of any other game that can compete with ME on all those points.   Maybe SWTOR but it's a MMO and that's a totally different animal, especially at end-game.   

I knew the story of Command Shepard was to end with ME3 (which is enough to make ME3 have a sad ending) but I did not expect the story of the Mass Effect universe to end.  I don't now how big the fanbase for Mass Effect was, but it seemed to continue to grow inbetween and with each new relase.   I know I helped grow it and I suspect it was pretty large fanbase by the time ME3 launched.  

I find it hard to believe the rumors that BW is trying to kill off Mass Effect but I also find it equally hard to see where you plan to take Mass Effect games in the future.  


"...The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain." G'kar from "Babylon 5"

Modifié par Kunari801, 31 mai 2012 - 08:14 .


#125
M0keys

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sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Doctor Moustache wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...
It's perfectly justified for you to feel that the Control ending is the best and most ideal of the three choices presented to you though.


Its really not though since Bioware forced us to force Shepard to constantly argue against that every time he meets the Illusive Man.  And he doesn't just say its wrong because it won't work, he says its wrong because even if it did work no man should be given that much power.  Chosing control only makes Shepard the biggest hypocrite to ever exist <snip>


You stated this well. This is exactly what Shepard was arguing. "No one should have that much power." or "We're not ready to have that much power." 

And if you look at what happens with the ending, and take Starbrat's word for it, Control is nothing more than the Ayn Rand power trip of her objectivist manifest, and they disguise it in "self-sacrifice." :facepalm:


whoa wait a minute --- what?

what does the control ending have to do with ayn rand? like.. are those two totally conflicting ideologies?