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[Skellimancer]

soteria wrote...

She did it the hard way, imo. I don't think I needed a heal in my most recent playthrough, although I did use a mage--I had her cast blizzard on all the extras, then I just bumrushed Zathrian. I don't think he got a single spell off. It was Shield Pummel, Pommel Strike, Shield Bash, Rejuvenate, Overpower, Dirty Fighting, Shield Pummel.... the fight ends when he "dies," so. If you really wanted to cheese that fight you could just have a mage cast mana clash, I guess. Never tried the spell myself.

Edit:  I guess this post sounds really elitist.  Sorry.  I just really didn't find any of the boss fights especially challenging after my first full play through, and there's just so many ways to beat any of the fights.

Yep. Using a mage would have cut down the video length by over half.

[menasure]

Skellimancer wrote...

soteria wrote...

She did it the hard way, imo. I don't think I needed a heal in my most recent playthrough, although I did use a mage--I had her cast blizzard on all the extras, then I just bumrushed Zathrian. I don't think he got a single spell off. It was Shield Pummel, Pommel Strike, Shield Bash, Rejuvenate, Overpower, Dirty Fighting, Shield Pummel.... the fight ends when he "dies," so. If you really wanted to cheese that fight you could just have a mage cast mana clash, I guess. Never tried the spell myself.

Edit:  I guess this post sounds really elitist.  Sorry.  I just really didn't find any of the boss fights especially challenging after my first full play through, and there's just so many ways to beat any of the fights.

Yep. Using a mage would have cut down the video length by over half.

because you would have killed half your party with friendly fire? more mages is easier in theory but it often comes down to more out of sync problems (which you are avoiding here by not using the tactic commands) and more "run away screeming with your squishy agro generating character" kind of gameplay

nah seriously, this was well played. however i have a dual feeling about these things because in a way with this kind of gameplay you do not really beat the fight in the way it was set up, you changed it. so it is sometimes questionable then if the game is really not difficult enough simply because someone avoids the difficulty.

i have my doubts if this kind of tactics is the right way to go for developers because as long as you can run into other rooms etc it would require a much better AI to make such things work in a more credible way.

kiting is all well in theory for example but it does not mean much unless the mob speeds vary greatly to be a seen as a real tactic in my opinion. it is one thing if you can do it on a slow very healthy monster but it is something entirely else if you can do it all the time because every mob works with the same lock on principle and with a fixed equal speed compared to the characters it is no sweat to do it all the time.
however things like making your dwarf member run slower than the rest (because of his short legs) is more easily said than done if someone has to program it i suppose.

Modifié par menasure, 12 décembre 2009 - 06:21 .

[MerinTB]

Kaosgirl wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

Kaosgirl wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

SheffSteel wrote...
The community seems evenly split between the "difficulty to easy" and "easily too difficult" crowds. It's probably about right.

I know, right?
I'm not really advocating a flame war, I actually wish that they could realize they exist in about equal numbers (relatively) and see that maybe its the gamers who make it easy or hard and not the game, and since we see complaints at both ends (with a crew of us in the middle satisfied) that the game is probably just about the right balance for a mass market release.

Or perhaps not.  Depends on whether the crew in the middle outnumbers the outliers or not.  If we don't, then...

You've got a form of the Kangaxx from Shadows of Amn scenario:  impossible or trivial, with almost nothing in between.  And that's not really good - it alienates both sides, frustrating the guys who find it too hard and boring the guys who find it too easy.

Bear in mind, I already stated I'm part of the 'middle' crew here.

If there was no middle it would indeed be weird, though.  That would break things down, in my mind, to those who try to run it real time with no pausing and no tactics and just try rapidly switching between characters and those who do pause and use tactics if that were the absolute breakdown.

See, what I was thinking was more along the lines of what tactics are being used.

Kangaxx was an encounter in BG2, where if you knew "the trick" to beating him he couldn't touch you unless you got unlucky.  If you didn't, he was almost guaranteed to wipe you out without being touched himself. 

The trick?  Played through BG2 twice, and while there were battles I played again and again due to dying or what not, I don't ever remember having to use an exploit or a particular spells or any such to win a battle.  I know one of the things I did was try different ways to defeat the same battles second time through.

[Kaosgirl]

MerinTB wrote...

Kaosgirl wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

Kaosgirl wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

SheffSteel wrote...
The community seems evenly split between the "difficulty to easy" and "easily too difficult" crowds. It's probably about right.

I know, right?
I'm not really advocating a flame war, I actually wish that they could realize they exist in about equal numbers (relatively) and see that maybe its the gamers who make it easy or hard and not the game, and since we see complaints at both ends (with a crew of us in the middle satisfied) that the game is probably just about the right balance for a mass market release.

Or perhaps not.  Depends on whether the crew in the middle outnumbers the outliers or not.  If we don't, then...

You've got a form of the Kangaxx from Shadows of Amn scenario:  impossible or trivial, with almost nothing in between.  And that's not really good - it alienates both sides, frustrating the guys who find it too hard and boring the guys who find it too easy.

Bear in mind, I already stated I'm part of the 'middle' crew here.

If there was no middle it would indeed be weird, though.  That would break things down, in my mind, to those who try to run it real time with no pausing and no tactics and just try rapidly switching between characters and those who do pause and use tactics if that were the absolute breakdown.

See, what I was thinking was more along the lines of what tactics are being used.

Kangaxx was an encounter in BG2, where if you knew "the trick" to beating him he couldn't touch you unless you got unlucky.  If you didn't, he was almost guaranteed to wipe you out without being touched himself. 

The trick?

IME, at least, if you didn't keep his target immune to Abjuration (or magic as a whole, with one of the two available scrolls) he just autokills with his free Imprison(?) effect - forcing a reload once he gets the main character.
But if you do take that approach, he can't do anything - at least until the spell wears off - because he just keeps trying and failing to Imprison.  Speed things up with either of the two weapons that have a chance to auto-kill Undead (Mace of Disruption worked best.)  

Other battles were better, but Kangaxx was (again IME) sort of binary.  

[MerinTB]

I think I remember the fight now, Kaosgirl. I think I just let him Imprison Minsc or Edwin, laughing the whole time, while taking him down.



The whole "anti-attack" spells thing isn't something I've done since Pools of Darkness days - well, ok, I think sometimes I tried to do it in Icewind Dale but it became a pain. Back in the real turn-based games, where the game warned you "behind this door is a tough fight - you might want to save" (huh, come to think of it, DAO does auto-save before big battles so I guess I could take that cue...) I'd (like most players of those games) cast all enhancement and protections spells I had plus use magic items and potions and such THEN open the door.



In the real time games, using stuff like the salves and protection spells that have limited duration during real-time gaming is more a hassle to me than a help.

[MR-9]

Nightmare is too easy, the difference between hard and nightmare is laughable. Nightmare should be harder.



The AI does some very stupid stuff. It makes me laugh. Also every boss fight can be effortlessly won with minimal effort by kiting, as can most of the other fights. There are fundemental problems with game mechanics at work here that aren't going to be solved by making potions heal for less.



The darkspawn horde should be hard-hitting and ignorant, but it seems that applies to everything that isn't controlled by a player.

[Skellimancer]

menasure wrote...


because you would have killed half your party with friendly fire? more mages is easier in theory but it often comes down to more out of sync problems (which you are avoiding here by not using the tactic commands) and more "run away screeming with your squishy agro generating character" kind of gameplay

That sounds like a challenge! :happy:

www.youtube.com/watch

My processor was straining on this run.. might have got a smoother result if kept reloading but.. there ya go.

[MR-9]

I like your video Skelli, I think it's great proof that some things should be tweaked.

[Skellimancer]

MR-9 wrote...

I like your video Skelli, I think it's great proof that some things should be tweaked.

Thanks and i agree. The fact that i just ran in and stabbity-stabbed him to death on Nightmare with no concern and came out alive and well proves that something is wrong.

With that said i don't want the game to require a mage present either. Maybe some of you better players here could give some advice to Bioware?

Modifié par Skellimancer, 12 décembre 2009 - 11:24 .

[MR-9]

1.) Develop a way for your AI to use fireballs in a way that does not make them seem mentally challenged. Location-based fireballs that are not scripted would make it harder for us to rip your NPCs apart. (That one scripted fireball from the blood mage in the Abandoned Warehouse in Denerim was crafty but it's triggered by stepping past a certain point so I know it's coming every time.)



2.) Give enemies access to a greater aresnal of abilities at higher difficulties. Give them a few more skill points to spend. Things get awfully predictable.

[Pennoyer]

Skellimancer wrote...

MR-9 wrote...

I like your video Skelli, I think it's great proof that some things should be tweaked.

Thanks and i agree. The fact that i just ran in and stabbity-stabbed him to death on Nightmare with no concern and came out alive and well proves that something is wrong.

With that said i don't want the game to require a mage present either. Maybe some of you better players here could give some advice to Bioware?

I think the only problem on that encounter is that his allies die after he is taken care of.  Mages should be somewhat squishy even if they are bosses.  This just ended up being a dps race.

[Skellimancer]

Pennoyer wrote...

Skellimancer wrote...

MR-9 wrote...

I like your video Skelli, I think it's great proof that some things should be tweaked.

Thanks and i agree. The fact that i just ran in and stabbity-stabbed him to death on Nightmare with no concern and came out alive and well proves that something is wrong.

With that said i don't want the game to require a mage present either. Maybe some of you better players here could give some advice to Bioware?

I think the only problem on that encounter is that his allies die after he is taken care of.  Mages should be somewhat squishy even if they are bosses.  This just ended up being a dps race.

Yep. but then the objective is not to kill him but to make him surrender and he was controlling the beasts.

[MR-9]

I think a mistake was giving is four different types of health potions that we would constantly be able to roll through during fights. Maybe that should have been a console-only thing, like they got the lower difficulty.

[Pennoyer]

If they improved enemy AI in nightmare the game would be much improved imo.

[Skellimancer]

MR-9 wrote...

I think a mistake was giving is four different types of health potions that we would constantly be able to roll through during fights. Maybe that should have been a console-only thing, like they got the lower difficulty.

But i shown that you don't need potions.

[Bibdy]

I made a mod which increases the difficulty by applying a simultaneous 30s health/mana potion cooldown when you use them and also bump up the SR/DR values of enemies and players, making you deal less damage, but take more in return. So things will get harder, maybe requiring you to use potions every now and then, but you can't chain-chug potions if things get too difficult.

I'd like some feedback on it if people could tell me how the shared potion cooldown and tweaks to the damage values work out. Here's the mod if you're interested.

http://social.biowar...m/project/1280/

[Skellimancer]

Pennoyer wrote...

If they improved enemy AI in nightmare the game would be much improved imo.

But in what way?

Modifié par Skellimancer, 13 décembre 2009 - 02:22 .

[Bibdy]

Off the top of my head:



1) I think if enemies ran +10/20% faster than player speed in Hard/Nightmare it would eliminate the kiting strat, or at least make it less powerful and more likely the player will stand and fight.



2) Make Force Field drop all threat to eliminate cheesing that.



3) Make enemies in packs attack together, rather than being able to pull a few creatures out of the pack by jumping in line of sight of only a few.

[Skellimancer]

Bibdy wrote...

Off the top of my head:

1) I think if enemies ran +10/20% faster than player speed in Hard/Nightmare it would eliminate the kiting strat, or at least make it less powerful and more likely the player will stand and fight.

2) Make Force Field drop all threat to eliminate cheesing that.

3) Make enemies in packs attack together, rather than being able to pull a few creatures out of the pack by jumping in line of sight of only a few.

1. Good idea! i hate kiting.
2. I tend to use that more on enemies than my team agreed though.

3. Yes. i notice on max visual setting you can see enemies from a very long distance allowing you to pick off individuals while the other enemies just stand there. very cheap.

[MR-9]

Yeah there is absolutely nothing to link them together when you make long pulls.

The description of nightmare is what cracks me up. Apparently understanding how to play the game makes you a tactical genius. Wording was a little strong there to say the least.

[Skellimancer]

MR-9 wrote...

Yeah there is absolutely nothing to link them together when you make long pulls.
The description of nightmare is what cracks me up. Apparently understanding how to play the game makes you a tactical genius. Wording was a little strong there to say the least.

That is pretty funny. So my 2nd zath attempt is tactical genius at its best? /CHARGE!

[soteria]

In the case of Zathrian (and a few other boss types), I think he needs spells that normal mages don't have access to. He's supposed to be this centuries-old keeper; I would have expected him to have something more powerful that Cone of Cold in his repetoire--ditto for Gaxxkang. Zathrian needs to be able to become immune to stuns and knockdowns, even if only temporarily, and cast some cool spells that players don't get. I don't see them ever doing that, of course, but it's an idea for future games.

[Skellimancer]

OK, last Zath run because i am sick of hitting Tuvok. www.youtube.com/watch

Might post another boss fight in the future.

Live long and prosper, . *dies*

Can someone move this to spoiler section?

Modifié par Skellimancer, 13 décembre 2009 - 04:30 .

[Gliese]

Perhaps the attempt to make the game have the right challenge both for fans of the old BG pause and play style and for people prefering all action play with 100% reliance on tactics for the AI proved too difficult to pull off?

As someone who loves BG2 I was afraid the game was going to be too easy ever since I started watching prerel videos and noticed that there was basically no pausing going on in them. If you do that in an average BG encounter you're going to be dead within a few seconds unless you're a high level mage and have all the defenses up or contingencied.