314 réponses à ce sujet

[Erield]

Han Shot First wrote...

Synthesis and Control are betrayals, because in both endings the Reapers survive. In neither ending is there any guarantee that the Reapers will not reap again, other than the assurances of some Star Brat that we've never met before, who incidentally refers to the Reapers as "we."
 
I'm suprised that any Shepard would meet a character that uses pronouns like "we" and "our" when referring to Reapers, and think, "Sounds legit. This chap seems like a trustworthy fellow."

If you are bringing trust into the equation, then it must be applied to all the solutions presented.  I agree that it's untrustworthy; I also reject all solutions.  My most recent Shepard is stuck in Limbo, forever staring at the unending battle between Reapers and the Galactic Fleet, while the Star Child awaits her choice.

In any case, if you think that Shepard won't be able to retain Control or that Reapers will still Reap after Synthesis, then why in the name of Bacon do you trust it that shooting a random conduit will kill the Reapers?

[Han Shot First]

I'm not saying that Destroy is a good ending, only that it was the least bad of the three endings that shipped with the game.

[frylock23]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

frylock23 wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

There was too much at stake to risk that TIM's ability to control (when we know that he's been playing with Reaper tech and has been indoctrinated by them and is controlled by them) is somehow totally different than their's particularly when we also know that if Shepard chooses "wrong" the Reapers lose everything and are destroyed utterly.

Being logical requires being absent of emotions. TIM's ability is not the same as Reaper's ability, regardless of that is at stake. Also, Catalyst says that Shepard will control the Reapers. If you believe him that it is possible to kill all the Reapers, why wouldn't you believe what control is possible?

Also, if Shepard was in the geth consensus before, he will address the problem, and the Legion will respond what it isn't problem for the geth technology.

Yes, I am aware that logic is not based on emotion. It's also very simple.

TIM controls Shepard.
Reapers control TIM.
TIM can't control Reapers
Shepard controls Reapers?
How?

Because I shot the Illusive Man. 

TIM's signal isn't as strong, but it's essentially the same signal the Reapers use. If they control him, they can also control Shepard. You might have been able to shake his control, but the very fact that he can control you is a sign that you are compromised.

Again, is it worth risking the fate of the entire galaxy on? I say it isn't, but obviously YMMV.

Modifié par frylock23, 30 mai 2012 - 11:51 .

[Erield]

Han Shot First wrote...

I'm not saying that Destroy is a good ending, only that it was the least bad of the three endings that shipped with the game.

That I can agree with. 

[Lord Goose]

but I see no evidence for that.

If you were on Sanctuary and paid attention to videofiles you should have seen that TIM managed to prevent his soldiers fromg being commanded by the Reapers, even though they were ''integrated''. You can see another proof that Reaper forces had to fight with Cerberus troops, meaning that they had no control over them, despite all of them being upgraded with Reaper's tech and controlled by TIM. Further, the whole attack on the Sanctuary means, what TIM discovered something dangerous for them.
Also, the thing about Reapers not being able to control Shepard despite having direct contract, Shepard breaking free from control etc.

Basically:
a) TIM can control humans
Reapers can't (what's why we can even fight them)

Ergo, his ability is different.

[frylock23]

Lord Goose wrote...

but I see no evidence for that.

If you were on Sanctuary and paid attention to videofiles you should have seen that TIM managed to prevent his soldiers fromg being commanded by the Reapers, even though they were ''integrated''. You can see another proof that Reaper forces had to fight with Cerberus troops, meaning that they had no control over them, despite all of them being upgraded with Reaper's tech and controlled by TIM. Further, the whole attack on the Sanctuary means, what TIM discovered something dangerous for them.
Also, the thing about Reapers not being able to control Shepard despite having direct contract, Shepard breaking free from control etc.

Basically:
a) TIM can control humans
Reapers can't (what's why we can even fight them)

Ergo, his ability is different.

If his ability was different, then he should have been able to control them/resist their control. But he wasn't.

[Lord Goose]

I think the problem is that he indoctrinated well before the discoveries on Sanctuary. In the First Contact war.

But you still see Reapers not being able to directly controlling TIM's troops. Which are integrated to obey him.

[The Night Mammoth]

frylock23 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Because I shot the Illusive Man. 

TIM's signal isn't as strong, but it's essentially the same signal the Reapers use. If they control him, they can also control Shepard. You might have been able to shake his control, but the very fact that he can control you is a sign that you are compromised.

That depends. There are a fair few factors surrounding this, like the control only being over your physical body, requiring some sort of activation by the Illusive Man, it being his technology and not the Reaper's etc. 

Again, is it worth risking the fate of the entire galaxy on? I say it isn't, but obviously YMMV.

Yep. 

Worst eventuality, the Reapers just kill everyone.

Best case scenario has me solving every large concievable problem the galaxy might have. 

Considering the Crucible is already one massive gamble, I'm rolling the dice. 

[Lord Goose]

The signal is not the same. After installation of first upgrades, Cerebus troops were ''hearing voices'' (sign of indoctrination), and Henry Lawson upgraded technology, so it was prevented.

[dreman9999]

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

That still does not nagate the fact he just told you you'll lose everything you have. So really, no matter what you don't know what losing everything you have means. No indication to what you'll lose is given but everything...

But the Reapers will obey Shepard. Because it explicitly says so AFTER that line.

So what? Shepard will lose everything he has to control them...That also means memeories...Is there any proof that Shepard thinks the same way after picking control or will remeber who or what he was before picking control. Or even the goal he had in mind when he picked control? That's the danger of the phraze..."You lose everything you have". There is no limit to what you lose.

Since the limit is never explicitly stated, it is whatever the player believes it to be.

No...Why? Because the playeer is never given the option to pick a limit. The starchild know how it works. He's the only one that can apply a limit

You are though. You are never told therefore it is up to YOU to decide.

Unless the EC changes that it is entirely up to the player to decide what that meant... It's headcanon.

No it's not..Point to me in the game where you choose how much you lose in control....The only thing you choose is out of the 3 options not how it's done.

[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Who said anything about dieing...You can lose you memories , you know.

You did. 

The serpent did. 

Isn't that the entire point? My god...........

What is the guarrentee theShepard thinks the same after being uploaded in the system or if he keeps his memories. Losing everything means losing everything...

THERE IS NO GUARANTEE AND NO ONE IS SAYING OTHERWISE.

1. I meant in away that meant you can't control the reapers..

2.Then why are you picking control if their is no guarentee that you'll be the same person  once you are up loaded.

[dreman9999]

legion999 wrote...

BigGuy28 wrote...

DubVee12 wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

DubVee12 wrote...

All of them? No
Some definately would. When you have people advocating blowing up the charon relay as a possibility to beat the Reapers conventionally, then yes I believe people would still pick it.

You mean the ones that don't realize that explosions travel slower than light?

Yes, those people. If they would sacrifice the solar system in a plan that wouldn't even work, they most definately would do it in the destroy ending. Because destroy is the only ending that actually defeats the reapers and makes Shep a legend apparently....<_<

Destroy is the only one that defeats the reapers. Control and synthesis lets them continue living, get away with trillions of murders and allowes them to continue the cycle at some point in the future.

Another one WRONG.



They've murdered quadrillions.

Thank you for making us make sure that the reapers a worst then we think they are...

[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

frylock23 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Because I shot the Illusive Man. 

TIM's signal isn't as strong, but it's essentially the same signal the Reapers use. If they control him, they can also control Shepard. You might have been able to shake his control, but the very fact that he can control you is a sign that you are compromised.

That depends. There are a fair few factors surrounding this, like the control only being over your physical body, requiring some sort of activation by the Illusive Man, it being his technology and not the Reaper's etc. 

Again, is it worth risking the fate of the entire galaxy on? I say it isn't, but obviously YMMV.

Yep. 

Worst eventuality, the Reapers just kill everyone.

Best case scenario has me solving every large concievable problem the galaxy might have. 

Considering the Crucible is already one massive gamble, I'm rolling the dice. 

*FACE PALM.....So a gamble is a better option for you then a garantee?

[jijeebo]

Can't quote, on iPod... But @dreman

It isn't in the game and thats exactly my point. It falls into the realm of speculation and headcanon what Shepard loses so people can decide what that means to them and their conclusion is as valid as any other persons until proven otherwise... You've no right to tell people what they can and can't headcanon out of the loose ends that are left open.

[Seryl]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 One common charge made against the green and blue paths is that they entail the players turning their back on everything they've been fighting for. And often times, examples are used to prove this, only to prove a selective memory of the overall fanbase.

In fact, I maintain that advancing through the Reapers is all we’ve done up to this point, and the only reason why victory through all three games is even possible...


1.) Mass Relays:

The Reapers’ “trap” in getting us to advance on the paths that they desire is the reason why we’re in the fight to begin with. Confined to our own systems, organic life would likely go the way of the drell. Earth is overpopulated in the ME lore even with space flight established. Per Thane, we found mass-relay tech before the problem could lead to overpopulation.

With that knowledge, the Protheans made all the success of ME1/2/3 possible by creating a mass-relay back to the relays’ control center (the Citadel) and rewriting the keepers.

In first using the mass-relays, we used a recovered piece of technology not created/mastered by us and used it without knowing completely what it would do... sound familiar?

2.) Keepers:

Originally part of the Reapers’ elaborate trap, the keepers have become valuable custodians of the Citadel after Prothean rewrite, and safeguarded against the cycle instead of assisting in it.

3.) EDI:

This creation is made possible by the study/mastery of Reaper tech.

4.) Thanix cannon:

See: #3.

5.) Seeker-swarm countermeasure:

The solution to this problem sure as hell wasn’t to destroy them, but to neutralize them with careful study of the tech itself, and to adapt accordingly by merging it with our own tech.

6.) Reaper IFF:

The losses of the Cerberus team studying it and possibly the Normandy’s crew are negligible. In truth, I’d attribute that more to Cerberus being incompetent, because both could have easily been avoided. In the end, what really matters is that the IFF helped make the mission to/from the Collector “homeworld” possible. No IFF, Collectors take humanity out of the fight before the war even begins.

7.) Object Rho:

Like the IFF, ‘Rho had its unfortunate consequences, but those were considerably outweighed by the success in taking away the Reapers’ advantage in the Alpha Relay.

8.) ME3 Geth:

They join you in the fight for Earth and assist building the Crucible - if upgraded through the Reapers’ code.

9.) Collector Base:

Whether recovered completely or salvaged from ruins, the tech from the ‘base is added to the Crucible after the assault on Cerebrus HQ.

10.) The Citadel:

Combined with the Crucible, the Citadel holds the solution(s) to the Reaper threat.


My point here is that while YES, we have been fighting to destroy the Reapers up this point in the series, we’ve mostly been accomplishing that through methods of control/adaptation of the Reapers’ own tech. So why is it so far-fetched to think that if given the option, Commander Shepard would choose Control or Synthesis? To me, it really isn’t. So let’s get off our “all things Reaper/Reaper tech is t3h eeeevviiiilllzz!” shall we?

Thread disclaimer: posters accusing OP of trolling and/or indoctrination hereby certify their own douchebaggery.

Go!

There is a big difference between turning a killer's own gun on him and joining him so that he either turns his own gun on himself or decides to leave you alone.

[dreman9999]

jijeebo wrote...

Can't quote, on iPod... But @dreman

It isn't in the game and thats exactly my point. It falls into the realm of speculation and headcanon what Shepard loses so people can decide what that means to them and their conclusion is as valid as any other persons until proven otherwise... You've no right to tell people what they can and can't headcanon out of the loose ends that are left open.

What it mean is a speculation but it's not up to the player to choose what it means. You are nver given control of that. The player never is given an choice to how the choices are applied. If they did then a player could choose that destroy only destroys the reapers and leaves EDI and the geth alone. You never given a choice on what you lose. Because you not given a choice you don't have control over it. The starchild know how everything works and only he can apply it. This means he is in control of what you lose...Not you. 
Also, noones head connon doesn' t count anyway.

Modifié par dreman9999, 31 mai 2012 - 05:06 .

[jijeebo]

But loads of people DO think that EDI and the Geth survive, and they have every right to.


Headcanon is what players use to fill in the gaps left by the game... And it counts for their Shepard and his/her universe.

[dreman9999]

jijeebo wrote...

But loads of people DO think that EDI and the Geth survive, and they have every right to.


Headcanon is what players use to fill in the gaps left by the game... And it counts for their Shepard and his/her universe.

No, they just think the star child is lieing. Big difference.

Head cannon is not something to use to prove an arrgument on a meaning on something...It's just a speculation. If everything has do defintion and the player has no choice on to what everything is that what ever you think you can do in Control is pointless. Because what every thing think your shepard is may be gone. This leave the issue on to trust. Do you really trust the Star child enough to up load your memories in the reaper system as well?

[mauro2222]

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

But loads of people DO think that EDI and the Geth survive, and they have every right to.


Headcanon is what players use to fill in the gaps left by the game... And it counts for their Shepard and his/her universe.

No, they just think the star child is lieing. Big difference.

Not at all. The little ****** says "You can wipe out all synthetic life if you want" it can be a plus to decide or simply something that happens.

[dreman9999]

mauro2222 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

But loads of people DO think that EDI and the Geth survive, and they have every right to.


Headcanon is what players use to fill in the gaps left by the game... And it counts for their Shepard and his/her universe.

No, they just think the star child is lieing. Big difference.

Not at all. The little ****** says "You can wipe out all synthetic life if you want" it can be a plus to decide or simply something that happens.

That's pretty clear that means if you pick destory.

[jijeebo]

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

But loads of people DO think that EDI and the Geth survive, and they have every right to.


Headcanon is what players use to fill in the gaps left by the game... And it counts for their Shepard and his/her universe.

No, they just think the star child is lieing. Big difference.

Not really, people think the Geth and EDI survive because Star-Jar is lieing... What's the big difference between that and what I said?

Head cannon is not something to use to prove an arrgument on a meaning on something...It's just a speculation. If everything has do defintion and the player has no choice on to what everything is that what ever you think you can do in Control is pointless. Because what every thing think your shepard is may be gone. This leave the issue on to trust. Do you really trust the Star child enough to up load your memories in the reaper system as well?

Headcanon is perfectly fine in a discussion where the other person is stating their own interpretation and passing it off as the only conclusion... Nothing wrong with trying to show people other possibilities.


My Shepard lost everything he had, not everything he was... It's not my problem if you assume that that also means memory loss because I don't.


And it's not about trust... It's about choice. Control for me is the best of the available choices. The only way to not "trust" the Catalyst is to ignore his 3 options and stand there as the reapers destroy the Crucible.

[Hjelsao]

Your argument seems to be centered around the use of Reaper tech. I'm sure you see that there is quite a big chasm between using the tech, and bonding with it on a genetic level.

I like driving cars, but I don't want to become part car.

[dreman9999]

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

But loads of people DO think that EDI and the Geth survive, and they have every right to.


Headcanon is what players use to fill in the gaps left by the game... And it counts for their Shepard and his/her universe.

No, they just think the star child is lieing. Big difference.

Not really, people think the Geth and EDI survive because Star-Jar is lieing... What's the big difference between that and what I said?

Head cannon is not something to use to prove an arrgument on a meaning on something...It's just a speculation. If everything has do defintion and the player has no choice on to what everything is that what ever you think you can do in Control is pointless. Because what every thing think your shepard is may be gone. This leave the issue on to trust. Do you really trust the Star child enough to up load your memories in the reaper system as well?

Headcanon is perfectly fine in a discussion where the other person is stating their own interpretation and passing it off as the only conclusion... Nothing wrong with trying to show people other possibilities.


My Shepard lost everything he had, not everything he was... It's not my problem if you assume that that also means memory loss because I don't.


And it's not about trust... It's about choice. Control for me is the best of the available choices. The only way to not "trust" the Catalyst is to ignore his 3 options and stand there as the reapers destroy the Crucible.

Again, what ever you think up on your own to continue the story can't be used for an arguement to figure out what happen in the end. It's in your head. If has nothing to do with what is in the story. It's just you making stuff up. That does not mean you can choose what the limit of everything is because you don't have a way to define it. You never gien the option. You can keep your head cannon but you can't us it in an arguement about what happened in the end.

Modifié par dreman9999, 31 mai 2012 - 02:44 .

[frylock23]

Lord Goose wrote...

I think the problem is that he indoctrinated well before the discoveries on Sanctuary. In the First Contact war.

But you still see Reapers not being able to directly controlling TIM's troops. Which are integrated to obey him.

Why should the Reapers bother with controlling TIM's troops if they are already Controlling TIM?

[frylock23]

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

But loads of people DO think that EDI and the Geth survive, and they have every right to.


Headcanon is what players use to fill in the gaps left by the game... And it counts for their Shepard and his/her universe.

No, they just think the star child is lieing. Big difference.

Not really, people think the Geth and EDI survive because Star-Jar is lieing... What's the big difference between that and what I said?

I have to hope he could be lying. I don't know for a fact he is. I base my hope on the fact that his problem that he's busy "saving" us all from has obviously never occurred or none of this would be taking place. If he can be wrong about that, then he can also be wrong about other things. He could in fact be wrong about what will happen when I shoot the tube, but since that's the only option he gives me where he tells me that the Reapers will die ... it's the one I'll go with. For all I know, I'm just going to be sacrificing myself to achieve nothing.