314 réponses à ce sujet

[Bill Casey]

Jamie9 wrote...

the Reapers will obey Shepard.

That is stupid...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 30 mai 2012 - 08:10 .

[DubVee12]

Lord Goose wrote...

it might be because you got blinded by not wanting to do what you gotta do to beat the reapers (sacrifice the Geth - if they are still functioning - and EDI).

I actually wounder. Would you (or any pro-Destroy) choose Destroy if you have to kill humanity to Destroy the Reapers?

I think if Catalyst would really want to persuade us to choose Control or Synthesis he could say what Destroy beam would destroy Earth/Solar system as whole. No one would probably do what.

No, I guarentee people would still choose destroy if it blew up our entire solar system.

[Vox Draco]

Jamie9 wrote...

No, it happens the other way around.

Child:   You will control us, but you will lose everything you have.

Shepard:   But the Reapers will obey me?

Child:   Yes.

Therefore, you can control them (obeying Shepard's will) after "losing everything you have" because Shepard explicitly asks, and the Catalyst explicitly answers (for once).

Yet as long as Shepard doesn't ask: "And will I still be the same person as I am now, standing here, willing and able to send you all away never to come back again, and able to defy your genocidal logic for al leternity..."

Well...as long as this isn't asked and answered trustworthy enough...well, then we still have no clue if it will be really Shepard though....

As I see it, even though the catalyst often says "us" when refering to the Reapers, he still claims to be the one to control them in the first place. Does the control of the Reapers actually include...the catalyst as well? What happens to him? He does not vanish like in destroy...and he never says shepard will become the catalyst, or does he? All I can think of is his face when Shepard grabs the rods...that smile gives me the creeps everytime...

And...isnt't he ending-file named "becomerareaper" or something like that?...Well...for me it seems Shepard rather becomes the new Harbinger...and still answers to the catalyst/Starchild...

[The Night Mammoth]

DubVee12 wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

it might be because you got blinded by not wanting to do what you gotta do to beat the reapers (sacrifice the Geth - if they are still functioning - and EDI).

I actually wounder. Would you (or any pro-Destroy) choose Destroy if you have to kill humanity to Destroy the Reapers?

I think if Catalyst would really want to persuade us to choose Control or Synthesis he could say what Destroy beam would destroy Earth/Solar system as whole. No one would probably do what.

No, I guarentee people would still choose destroy if it blew up our entire solar system.

The same people? 

All of them? 

Not so sure about that. 

[Bill Casey]

Low EMS Destroy is better than the other two options...

[dreman9999]

Jamie9 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

That still does not nagate the fact he just told you you'll lose everything you have. So really, no matter what you don't know what losing everything you have means. No indication to what you'll lose is given but everything...

But the Reapers will obey Shepard. Because it explicitly says so AFTER that line.

So what? Shepard will lose everything he has to control them...That also means memeories...Is there any proof that Shepard thinks the same way after picking control or will remeber who or what he was before picking control. Or even the goal he had in mind when he picked control? That's the danger of the phraze..."You lose everything you have". There is no limit to what you lose.

[The Night Mammoth]

Bill Casey wrote...

Low EMS Destroy is better than the other two options...

Good for you. 

That statement is irrelevant.

Good day ser. 

[jijeebo]

dreman9999 wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

That still does not nagate the fact he just told you you'll lose everything you have. So really, no matter what you don't know what losing everything you have means. No indication to what you'll lose is given but everything...

But the Reapers will obey Shepard. Because it explicitly says so AFTER that line.

So what? Shepard will lose everything he has to control them...That also means memeories...Is there any proof that Shepard thinks the same way after picking control or will remeber who or what he was before picking control. Or even the goal he had in mind when he picked control? That's the danger of the phraze..."You lose everything you have". There is no limit to what you lose.

Since the limit is never explicitly stated, it is whatever the player believes it to be.

Modifié par jijeebo, 30 mai 2012 - 08:15 .

[llbountyhunter]

if shepard is controlling the reapers in the end then why does he close the citadel in the end scene?

[dreman9999]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
I'm sorry ...Where in his statement did he say that you choose what you lose when you pick control?
He says you lose everything and never says there is a limit...Yet some how you think you  can say what the things you lose are when you pick control?

Because it's evident that Shepard doesn't 'die'. 

The Reapers leave, the Citadel closes up with the space-vibrator inside. 

What exactly the serpent means is very much open to interpretation, you said that yourself several times. 

Who said anything about dieing...You can lose you memories , you know. What is the guarrentee theShepard thinks the same after being uploaded in the system or if he keeps his memories. Losing everything means losing everything...

[llbountyhunter]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Low EMS Destroy is better than the other two options...

Good for you. 

That statement is irrelevant.

Good day ser. 

speaking of irrelevent statements....

[dreman9999]

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

That still does not nagate the fact he just told you you'll lose everything you have. So really, no matter what you don't know what losing everything you have means. No indication to what you'll lose is given but everything...

But the Reapers will obey Shepard. Because it explicitly says so AFTER that line.

So what? Shepard will lose everything he has to control them...That also means memeories...Is there any proof that Shepard thinks the same way after picking control or will remeber who or what he was before picking control. Or even the goal he had in mind when he picked control? That's the danger of the phraze..."You lose everything you have". There is no limit to what you lose.

Since the limit is never explicitly stated, it is whatever the player believes it to be.

No...Why? Because the playeer is never given the option to pick a limit. The starchild know how it works. He's the only one that can apply a limit

[Jamie9]

Vox Draco wrote...

Yet as long as Shepard doesn't ask: "And will I still be the same person as I am now, standing here, willing and able to send you all away never to come back again, and able to defy your genocidal logic for al leternity..."

Well...as long as this isn't asked and answered trustworthy enough...well, then we still have no clue if it will be really Shepard though....

As I see it, even though the catalyst often says "us" when refering to the Reapers, he still claims to be the one to control them in the first place. Does the control of the Reapers actually include...the catalyst as well? What happens to him? He does not vanish like in destroy...and he never says shepard will become the catalyst, or does he? All I can think of is his face when Shepard grabs the rods...that smile gives me the creeps everytime...

And...isnt't he ending-file named "becomerareaper" or something like that?...Well...for me it seems Shepard rather becomes the new Harbinger...and still answers to the catalyst/Starchild...

You really need Shepard to ask it like that? It's explicitly said! That would break the entire flow of that scene anyways. I'd probably laugh if Shepard asked that.

I still can't see the Catalyst smile in that frame. All I see is big glowing light-face.

Just a file name. The plants on the Normandy planet at the end are called "Dream_foliage". Sometimes file names are just file names. You do become the Reapers though. You control them. You are the Reapers. Except they won't be "reaping".

I want the Extended Cut to clarify things more, but it doesn't need to be done like that. I would feel insulted actually.

But you can pick destroy. It's a valid option. I'm not trying to convince you, I'm trying to show that it's not quite as vague as some make it out to be. At least that we can argue somewhat-objectively.

[jijeebo]

dreman9999 wrote...

jijeebo wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Jamie9 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

That still does not nagate the fact he just told you you'll lose everything you have. So really, no matter what you don't know what losing everything you have means. No indication to what you'll lose is given but everything...

But the Reapers will obey Shepard. Because it explicitly says so AFTER that line.

So what? Shepard will lose everything he has to control them...That also means memeories...Is there any proof that Shepard thinks the same way after picking control or will remeber who or what he was before picking control. Or even the goal he had in mind when he picked control? That's the danger of the phraze..."You lose everything you have". There is no limit to what you lose.

Since the limit is never explicitly stated, it is whatever the player believes it to be.

No...Why? Because the playeer is never given the option to pick a limit. The starchild know how it works. He's the only one that can apply a limit

You are though. You are never told therefore it is up to YOU to decide.

Unless the EC changes that it is entirely up to the player to decide what that meant... It's headcanon.

[The Night Mammoth]

dreman9999 wrote...
Who said anything about dieing...You can lose you memories , you know.

You did. 

The serpent did. 

Isn't that the entire point? My god...........

What is the guarrentee theShepard thinks the same after being uploaded in the system or if he keeps his memories. Losing everything means losing everything...

THERE IS NO GUARANTEE AND NO ONE IS SAYING OTHERWISE.

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 30 mai 2012 - 08:19 .

[The Night Mammoth]

llbountyhunter wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Low EMS Destroy is better than the other two options...

Good for you. 

That statement is irrelevant.

Good day ser. 

speaking of irrelevent statements....

Indeed. 

Good day ser. 

[frylock23]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

DubVee12 wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

it might be because you got blinded by not wanting to do what you gotta do to beat the reapers (sacrifice the Geth - if they are still functioning - and EDI).

I actually wounder. Would you (or any pro-Destroy) choose Destroy if you have to kill humanity to Destroy the Reapers?

I think if Catalyst would really want to persuade us to choose Control or Synthesis he could say what Destroy beam would destroy Earth/Solar system as whole. No one would probably do what.

No, I guarentee people would still choose destroy if it blew up our entire solar system.

The same people? 

All of them? 

Not so sure about that. 

I know I was prepared to have to sacrifice Earth just like I was prepared to have to sacrifice Shepard. If you've really gotten to the point where you're willing to actually play the ruthless calculus game in order to get rid of the Reapers once and for all and you truly do have a Shepard who sees a person as a person no matter which species they belong to, then yes, you would be willing to accept that price.

It's one of the things that makes sythesis so offensive. You work and work to play the game with the idea that you can overcome your prejudices and treat people like people despite differences, and then you get told that the only acceptable long term solution is to erase those differences forcibly and artificially.

[Lord Goose]

The starchild know how it works. He's the only one that can apply a limit

Player can set up a limit. And developers may have set up a limit clearly in Catalyst speech.

[Jamie9]

frylock23 wrote...

I know I was prepared to have to sacrifice Earth just like I was prepared to have to sacrifice Shepard. If you've really gotten to the point where you're willing to actually play the ruthless calculus game in order to get rid of the Reapers once and for all and you truly do have a Shepard who sees a person as a person no matter which species they belong to, then yes, you would be willing to accept that price.

It's one of the things that makes sythesis so offensive. You work and work to play the game with the idea that you can overcome your prejudices and treat people like people despite differences, and then you get told that the only acceptable long term solution is to erase those differences forcibly and artificially.

Well, if it indeed does solve the singularity then the difference synthesis makes is huge, and not just artificial. It would ensure organic's survival. Don't get me wrong, synthesis is still space magic.

But singularity isn't.

But the thing is, Paragon Shepard, and me, would argue "So what?" So synthetics take the dominant position? By the time we're singularity in terms of AI tech, AI will be pretty much human. Full emotions, full sentience. Even more human than EDI and the Geth. It's wrong to stop the singularity if that is the case. Let it happen.

[Lord Goose]

If you've really gotten to the point where you're willing to actually play the ruthless calculus game in order to get rid of the Reapers once and for all and you truly do have a Shepard who sees a person as a person no matter which species they belong to, then yes, you would be willing to accept that price.

So, basically, you're playing Ruthless here. Achieve the result no matter the cost, sacrificing 75% of your squad just to kill the batarians. Right?

[Vox Draco]

Jamie9 wrote...
You really need Shepard to ask it like that? It's explicitly said! That would break the entire flow of that scene anyways. I'd probably laugh if Shepard asked that.

I still can't see the Catalyst smile in that frame. All I see is big glowing light-face.

Just a file name. The plants on the Normandy planet at the end are called "Dream_foliage". Sometimes file names are just file names. You do become the Reapers though. You control them. You are the Reapers. Except they won't be "reaping".

I want the Extended Cut to clarify things more, but it doesn't need to be done like that. I would feel insulted actually.

But you can pick destroy. It's a valid option. I'm not trying to convince you, I'm trying to show that it's not quite as vague as some make it out to be. At least that we can argue somewhat-objectively.

Ahem...not like that exactly of course, though there is no flow to the scene anyway, as far as I am concerned. But I actually would ask something like that if someone says to me I'll die when I grab those rods...In fact...the mere thought that Shepard really says nothing to this and accepts everything the kid says...is what makes me laugh..in despair. It only adds to my impression this whole scene is too full of surrealism and symbolism to be real...

Maybe I see the smile due to the vid I recently made. Looking at him multiple times on full-screen really gives you the impression after a while...though of course I am biased against the brat anyway...

Yep, those filenames are not my first pick of evidence either...yet still...it adds to the picture already in my mind

You will never convince anyone on the Internet anyway. This is also not the reason why I post in the first place. I just...like to argue, as long as it stays more or less civil, though. but still, I think the only thing not vague about control is "You will die!"...

[MegaSovereign]

Toxic Waste wrote...

In ME1 the goal was set. Destroy the Reapers.That was the objective and the overall goal. Not to open peace talks or trade negotiations. Not to come up with an alternate road other then war. It was to Destroy the Reapers.
In ME2 (if you choose to destroy the base) the goal was restated.
The Reapers were (are) coming to wipe out the galaxy. No if ands or butts.

And throughout the series Shepard asks a lot of questions, getting as much info as possiable to make the choice s/he eventually makes. starkid comes out, give you 17 lines and there is little Shep says other then "oh really?" (paraphrasing) and then makes the decision. Sorry, but for me, if I don't get a good answer I justy blow the thing up.

Besides, why trust something that has been "harvesting" life for longer then your planet has been in existance? I couldn't change my ex-wifes beliefes and way of thinking, but I am somehow going to be able to change a machines way of thinking?

Sorry, that is just beyond my comprehension.

Stopped reading after first paragraph.

The goal set by ME1 was to STOP the reapers, not necessarily destroy them. No matter what you do with the Crucible, you are stopping the Reapers.

[Navasha]

DubVee12 wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

it might be because you got blinded by not wanting to do what you gotta do to beat the reapers (sacrifice the Geth - if they are still functioning - and EDI).

I actually wounder. Would you (or any pro-Destroy) choose Destroy if you have to kill humanity to Destroy the Reapers?

I think if Catalyst would really want to persuade us to choose Control or Synthesis he could say what Destroy beam would destroy Earth/Solar system as whole. No one would probably do what.

No, I guarentee people would still choose destroy if it blew up our entire solar system.

Absolutely.    Choosing destroy means willing to make the tough choice to do the right thing.   Yes, its painful.  Yes, its horrific.  Yes, it seems a terrible price.    BUT...   its still the only option that ensures victory.  

Choosing control is choosing to gamble on your own hubris.   You think you are mighty enough to control the reapers, just like MILLIONS of people think they are going to be the one to win the lottery every week.    However, the odds are against you and the price for failure isn't just the $2 ticket, its the lives of EVERYONE you know and everyone in the galaxy you don't know.    To me, that gamble isn't an option, anyone should be willing to make.  

I won't even consider synthesis an option, that pretty much guarantees everyone you know will die and along with everything that might have ever lived.  

[Lord Goose]

You think you are mighty enough to control the reapers, just like MILLIONS of people think they are going to be the one to win the lottery every week.

Maybe millions of people were thinking that they could control them... But billions were thinking that they could destroy them. Protheans, those guys who killed dead-but-sleeping one, all civilizations who ever tried to defend itself.

If we already have magical device which could put end to Reapers, why won't we judge all possibilities?

Modifié par Lord Goose, 30 mai 2012 - 08:31 .

[Jamie9]

Vox Draco wrote...

Ahem...not like that exactly of course, though there is no flow to the scene anyway, as far as I am concerned. But I actually would ask something like that if someone says to me I'll die when I grab those rods...In fact...the mere thought that Shepard really says nothing to this and accepts everything the kid says...is what makes me laugh..in despair. It only adds to my impression this whole scene is too full of surrealism and symbolism to be real...

Maybe I see the smile due to the vid I recently made. Looking at him multiple times on full-screen really gives you the impression after a while...though of course I am biased against the brat anyway...

Yep, those filenames are not my first pick of evidence either...yet still...it adds to the picture already in my mind

You will never convince anyone on the Internet anyway. This is also not the reason why I post in the first place. I just...like to argue, as long as it stays more or less civil, though. but still, I think the only thing not vague about control is "You will die!"...

Yeah, the flow will change anyway with the EC. The sentence was just overly descriptive (though I realised what you meant ).

Perhaps there is a smile there. I just can't see it. And it has been proven if you listen to a song backwards or look at an abstract image a number of times the brain forms thing that aren't there. I wish the writers would come back and answer basic things like this. You know, for the visually inept people like me.

I don't post to convince people, though I do try to open people to other perspectives... perhaps that is foolish of me, but I'll still try. They have the right to (and usually do) ignore me.

And my perspective on things change. I'd say 1 in every 100 or so posts you see something and go, "Huh." You actually take something in, and you've learnt something.

I'm an optimist, what can I say.