154 réponses à ce sujet

[chemiclord]

While I personally dislike "golden endings" (I find them trite, cliche, relics of the Romantic Period), when you make it a theme through the first two games of a trilogy that such an ending is possible if you do everything "right", you need to either stick to that theme or at the very least make it painfully clear that such an ending will not be possible in the final installment so that you can say, "We DID warn you, you know."

You are simply asking to be set upon by ravenous fanboys otherwise.

[Kunari801]

George-Kinsill wrote...
Another good point. I really think BioWare stumbled into this problem for the control ending. Of all the endings, it would make the most sense for Shep to survive that one. Yet he dies, loses everything that he is, not even becoming the catalyst (or if he does, it's not stated). 

Agreed, and in an early draft you were supposed to become the catalyst.   So I hope the EC will do this for high EMS Control.   That would at least let you have the ability (as the new catalyst) to say goodbye to your LI in an expanded epilogue too.  

I'd like the ability to take temp-control, run all the Reapers into the local star then disconnect and go off into the sunset with my LI.  I don't care if it's a cliche I want it.  

Modifié par Kunari801, 31 mai 2012 - 01:04 .

[VictoriousMarch]

Yah I would love to have a happy ending... I would also have loved sad or dark ending... either would be great. What we got was a piece of garbage that made zero sense to the story told up to that point. We had a rushed and poorly written ending that threw out almost every establish rule of proper writing in favor a style that was not revolutionary but rather a style that has been rejected time and time again throughout human history because it SUCKS as a literary method.

[George-Kinsill]

DinoSteve wrote...

Hold up OP not all Anti- Enders thinks there should be a rainbows and Unicorns ending, I want an ending the gives a proper conclusion and fits thematically with Mass effect. I can live with Shepard having to sacrifice himself as long as I am shown it was worth it. You know it is possible to have a happy bittersweet ending if Shepard dies.

I'm not trying to say that all anti-enders are all for happy endings; I know that all just want a sensical themeaticaly appropriate ending. However, it seems one of the biggest complaints is that ME3 lacks ending choices. There is no Reaper win or happy ending choice. Thus, the current endings are stuck somwhere in the middle with the weaknesses of both and the strengths of neither.

[Mallissin]

I honestly don't mind the relays exploding, because the story afterwards would be more interesting (different species stranded together). You can always write up something to explain where more relays came from, or certain relays survived, or over the years after of the battle so and so figured out how to make such and such to connect the universe back together....whatever.

I just want an ending for Shepard that isn't half-assed. I want to hear about how at least 6-8, if not more, major decisions played out.

And I want that stupid NORMANDY FLEES EXPLOSION sequence GONE!

[Iakus]

chemiclord wrote...

While I personally dislike "golden endings" (I find them trite, cliche, relics of the Romantic Period), when you make it a theme through the first two games of a trilogy that such an ending is possible if you do everything "right", you need to either stick to that theme or at the very least make it painfully clear that such an ending will not be possible in the final installment so that you can say, "We DID warn you, you know."

You are simply asking to be set upon by ravenous fanboys otherwise.

I don't even consdier an ending where Shepard lives to be a "golden" ending.  The galaxy is frakked up no matter what.  Shep's lost several friends.  Reapers and Cerberus have laid waste to several worlds.  the relay network is gone either for the short term or long.

But if Shepard can live in that galaxy, one he/she helped create, well, that shows Shepard's there to help clean up the mess.  Even fi the "saving the galaxy" days are over.

[Kreidian]

You know Alan, I'm starting to wonder if the people left over at BioWare just hate games all of a sudden. I mean the way you guys keep wanting to remove things that are too "Video Gamey" from *shock* A VIDEO GAME! All the talk about whatever artistic crafting you want to throw out is all well and good, but at the end of the day you're making video games for public consumption, and the one thing video games should be is fun and entertaining for their audience. In short playing a video game should be enjoyable. And, shockingly enough, having a happy ending is enjoyable to people. One would think these things would be obvious but lately BioWare has shown a complete lack of understading this simple concept.

I get having choices that are difficult and not simply defined by red or blue. That's great, making things interesting along the way I'm all for. But if at the end of the day the customer does not enjoy the gaming experience, as is happening now with ME3 due to its ending, then you as a game developer have failed at a fundamental level.

It's like building the most amazing car imaginable, except it can only move a maximum distance of 10 feet. All the amazing bells and whistles, all the top end engineering and design that went into creating that car mean nothing if it doesn't get the job done.

You want to make a perfect ending something to work for, that's fine. You want to make any ending that the player would enjoy locked behind a crazy formula of actions that require then to play differently then they would want to is not a game anymore, it's more like a math test where you just hope to get the gold star at the end.

[luzburg]

well i think that the lack of a happy ending option is storybreaking.
in my opinion is that bad endings belong in the real world

[George-Kinsill]

Kreidian wrote...

You know Alan, I'm starting to wonder if the people left over at BioWare just hate games all of a sudden. I mean the way you guys keep wanting to remove things that are too "Video Gamey" from *shock* A VIDEO GAME! All the talk about whatever artistic crafting you want to throw out is all well and good, but at the end of the day you're making video games for public consumption, and the one thing video games should be is fun and entertaining for their audience. In short playing a video game should be enjoyable. And, shockingly enough, having a happy ending is enjoyable to people. One would think these things would be obvious but lately BioWare has shown a complete lack of understading this simple concept.

I get having choices that are difficult and not simply defined by red or blue. That's great, making things interesting along the way I'm all for. But if at the end of the day the customer does not enjoy the gaming experience, as is happening now with ME3 due to its ending, then you as a game developer have failed at a fundamental level.

It's like building the most amazing car imaginable, except it can only move a maximum distance of 10 feet. All the amazing bells and whistles, all the top end engineering and design that went into creating that car mean nothing if it doesn't get the job done.

You want to make a perfect ending something to work for, that's fine. You want to make any ending that the player would enjoy locked behind a crazy formula of actions that require then to play differently then they would want to is not a game anymore, it's more like a math test where you just hope to get the gold star at the end.

Don't get too mad at Allen; he's just expressing his personal opinion and not that of BioWare as a whole.

In any case though, the element of choice is what make BioWare endings great. If your friends die, it's your fault; if you save the galaxy/land with minimal losses, its because if you. This ownership of our stories is key to what makes BioWare games great. Once it is gone, though, all the magic is gone (unless its space magic.)

[Kunari801]

George-Kinsill wrote...
Don't get too mad at Allen; he's just expressing his personal opinion and not that of BioWare as a whole.

In any case though, the element of choice is what make BioWare endings great. If your friends die, it's your fault; if you save the galaxy/land with minimal losses, its because if you. This ownership of our stories is key to what makes BioWare games great. Once it is gone, though, all the magic is gone (unless its space magic.) 

They tried to force a Nihilistic ending when Mass Effect has not been a Nihilistic story.  As one ending of many for ME3 I'd be fine with that, if they wanted to make us work for a happier ending, I too am fine with that.   But when all endings in ME3 are Nihilistic that is NOT ok.  

At best it'd be bittersweet.  This is the end of the journey of our Shepard and crew (last game) and with all the losses suffered on the journey in ME3, I wouldn't call any ending "Happy".  

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

I'm fine with happy and dark endings. As long as it's an actual choice rather than it being forced on you.

To be honest, I'd probably still be angry if the current endings we have were only "happy" endings no matter what you did in the game.

[George-Kinsill]

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

I'm fine with happy and dark endings. As long as it's an actual choice rather than it being forced on you.

To be honest, I'd probably still be angry if the current endings we have were only "happy" endings no matter what you did in the game.

Same here. Just as a dark ending is darker knowing that your actions resulted in the dark ending, a happy ending is happier knowing that your choices led to it. If it's forced on you, then it robs choice from the seires, which is what its foundation is.

[Allan Schumacher]

You know Alan, I'm starting to wonder if the people left over at BioWare just hate games all of a sudden. I mean the way you guys keep wanting to remove things that are too "Video Gamey" from *shock* A VIDEO GAME! All the talk about whatever artistic crafting you want to throw out is all well and good, but at the end of the day you're making video games for public consumption, and the one thing video games should be is fun and entertaining for their audience. In short playing a video game should be enjoyable. And, shockingly enough, having a happy ending is enjoyable to people. One would think these things would be obvious but lately BioWare has shown a complete lack of understading this simple concept.

I get having choices that are difficult and not simply defined by red or blue. That's great, making things interesting along the way I'm all for. But if at the end of the day the customer does not enjoy the gaming experience, as is happening now with ME3 due to its ending, then you as a game developer have failed at a fundamental level.

How do you define enjoyment?

I *love* it when a game can illicit an emotional reaction from me. I think it's exceptionally powerful. Whether it be anger, happiness, sadness, or anything like that, I enjoy it. What do you have to say to all the people (and they do exist) that do enjoy the endings to Mass Effect 3? Are they just wrong? Did we fail them on a fundamental level? If we didn't fail them, well then things become a lot muddier don't they?  Keep in mind that I'm still a consumer of video games myself.  I find the Modern Warfare games disinteresting, though there's something about Diablo that keeps me coming back (Hardcore mode...) and I love it when a game can make me pause and think about the decision that I'm actually going to make.

Fallout 1 and Planescape: Torment are both endings that are not happy. Fallout 1 is probably the most poignant ending I've ever experienced, and it's easily one of my favourite games of all time. It might also be of interest that these two games also allow you to complete them by circumventing the boss fight entirely (and in fact, IMO, have rather bland boss fights and the significantly more interesting options are the ones that avoid the fight). Deus Ex is another one of my all time favourites, and it's a game where all three endings are decidedly open ended and there's no real boss fight either.

I like a game series like Mass Effect because I like being immersed in the story. Because of that I'm able to overlook aspects of the gameplay that really aren't all that fun for me, because it did stuff like that so well. Two of the weakest parts of ME1 and ME2 or me are the boss fights. I thought it was silly to still have to fight Saren after he puts the gun to himself, and it made me roll my eyes and conclude "I guess we just need a boss fight." ME2 is just the same, where I feel the ending would have been superior if they had just skipped over the fight with the reaper at the end.


As for us not liking games, I'll just disagree. I applied at BioWare because I *love* gaming. I've had my run ins with gaming compulsion growing up and found a way to leverage my passion into a career. I booked time off for Alpha Protocol and Deus Ex Human Revolution, and more recently there's others around work that have taken time for games like Skyrim and Diablo 3.  Gaming talk permeates throughout the office.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 31 mai 2012 - 05:17 .

[Kunari801]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
  ... I *love* it when a game can illicit an emotional reaction from me. I think it's exceptionally powerful. Whether it be anger, happiness, sadness, or anything like that, I enjoy it. What do you have to say to all the people (and they do exist) that do enjoy the endings to Mass Effect 3?...

...I like a game series like Mass Effect because I like being immersed in the story....  ME2 is just the same, where I feel the ending would have been superior if they had just skipped over the fight with the reaper at the end. 

I too love it when a game evokes an emotional reaction, like a good book or movie.  I too love to get immersed in a good story.   But I wonder what emotions were the team trying to evoke in ME3's ending?  (I know you can't answer for them)  Did they evoke the emotions they wanted to evoke?  

I believe the Tuchanka & Rannoch arcs do evoke the proper emotional mix of bittersweet victory while the endings missed the mark.  

Modifié par Kunari801, 31 mai 2012 - 05:49 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Kunari801 wrote...

I too love it when a game evokes an emotional reaction, like a good book or movie.  I too love to get immersed in a good story.   But I wonder what emotions were the team trying to evoke in ME3's ending?  (I know you can't answer for them)  Did they evoke the emotions they wanted to evoke? 

I think at this point it's fair to say that they didn't succeed for a large number of fans.  I do believe that they were aiming for a bittersweet interpretation, and were hoping for 'lots of speculation' to mean people discussing the endings and what the future might hold for the galaxy in a more positive light than we've seen from a lot of people.

(Note: my opinion on the subject)

I believe the Tuchanka & Rannoch arcs do evoke the proper emotional mix of bittersweet victory while the endings missed the mark.  

I think Tuchanka and Rannoch accent the ending (in a negative way) because to me both of those story arcs are among my favourite in my gaming history.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 31 mai 2012 - 05:53 .

[PsyrenY]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I don't think this works for the same reason that many have said the current endings are unsatisfying because they're less emotionally invested in the faceless masses and the fact that the future no longer needs to worry about systemic extermination at the hands of the Reapers.

The problem I have with a situation like the Suicide Mission is that the ending is effectively a game score.  Especially given how easy it can be to achieve, not achieving a nearly flawless playthrough more says "You didn't win as well as you could have if only you had played better."

I prefer endings that are qualitatively similar.  That is, an ending where it's not as obvious which one is the "more ideal result."

THANK YOU. I've been saying this for weeks/months in the "happy ending" threads. The response has been, invariably, "Y U NO LIKE HAPPY??"

[Allan Schumacher]

Optimystic_X wrote...

THANK YOU. I've been saying this for weeks/months in the "happy ending" threads. The response has been, invariably, "Y U NO LIKE HAPPY??"

To be fair, I've entirely underestimated the level of emotional investment some players have (I don't mean this as a diss either... I actually consider myself a player that gets emotionally invested too) and what their expectations were.  I didn't follow ME3's development (and especially not the hype) at all, so I went into the game blind.

I just want to make it clear that though I feel there are strengths in having endings that are all relatively equivalent in their outcomes, the fact that people found the ending disappointing is not lost on me.

[Kunari801]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Kunari801 wrote...

I too love it when a game evokes an emotional reaction, like a good book or movie.  I too love to get immersed in a good story.   But I wonder what emotions were the team trying to evoke in ME3's ending?  (I know you can't answer for them)  Did they evoke the emotions they wanted to evoke? 

I think at this point it's fair to say that they didn't succeed for a large number of fans.  I do believe that they were aiming for a bittersweet interpretation, and were hoping for 'lots of speculation' to mean people discussing the endings and what the future might hold for the galaxy in a more positive light than we've seen from a lot of people. (Note: my opinion on the subject) 

 

I agree, I think the fact that the team is working on the EC is proof.  I too started ME3 pretty blind as I was dealing with family illness for most of 2011 and only had a little personal time.   I did hear about the leak but didn't really read any details and I did see the trailers but that's about it until the Demo released.   

I thought Shepard was likely to die in some kind of heroic sacrifice and a bittersweet ending like in DA:O.

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Kunari801 wrote... 
I believe the Tuchanka & Rannoch arcs do evoke the proper emotional mix of bittersweet victory while the endings missed the mark.  

I think Tuchanka and Rannoch accent the ending (in a negative way) because to me both of those story arcs are among my favourite in my gaming history.

They are my favorites too.  Watching a giant Thresher Maw take out a Reaper was epic! 

[Belisarius09]

I don't feel like we got either one. We didn't get a happy ending but we didn't get a dark bitter-sweet ending either.

We got a shallow/hollow victory ending.

They said there would be an option where the reapers won, there isn't. A bitter sweet ending would be we lose, reapers win, but we successfully plant Liara's time capsule giving hope for the future. We are together with our LI in the final moments as we see Harbinger enter the atmosphere and aim his red laser at our position and then the screen goes black.

Something like that.

What we currently have is not bitter sweet. There's nothing sweet about it, and the only bitter thing is the fanbase. What we currently have is a hollow victory, where the Reapers lost, but no one feels like we won.

[Shajar]

Also managed to get Tali killed during first run on ME2/ME3. I knew i should not trust Miranda, she just cant handle those swarmers. Results, lots of man tears.
Chose geth because of annoying Gerrel, Tali died. Again lots of man tears.
Managed to contine without load game, but rushed game to end so i can start again fresh

First time game is always too dramatic haha

[JustifiablyDefenestrated]

Ultimately, I think this issue highlights the dichotomy between the reasons why people play story-driven games. On the one hand, you've got power fantasies--you, as the gamer, step into the role of commander Shepard, becoming the powerful, charismatic, intelligent and attractive savior the galaxy, able to headbutt angry krogans and take down reapers. You become a person that you could never be in real life. And, in this view, it makes sense why people would want a happy ending; it's not much of a power-trip if you die at the end .Or even if you don't know if you saved your friends. This might be why some people want to choose the outcomes of their actions, rather than the actions themselves.

On the other hand, you could be simply putting yourself into the shoes of another person to experience the world and to explore your own reactions to difficult choices. I thought one of the most powerful moments in any game I've ever played was when I had to choose between Ashley and Kaidan on Virmire. I literally had to walk away from the computer for twenty minutes before I could decide. I'm infinitely glad that there was no way to save them both.

I had a similar reaction to the end of ME3, but I think that it wasn't as effective because I was unclear on exactly what I was choosing. I initially thought that only the "destroy" ending would kill Shepard and the mass relays, and that was the price for exterminating the reapers. And, somehow, the "control" ending would preserve the mass relays and Shepard. I didn't mind not having a "happy" ending, but it did feel as if the final decision didn't have the weight that it should have, if only because it was unclear what the choices meant and how they fit into the context of other decisions in the game.

Modifié par JustifiablyDefenestrated, 31 mai 2012 - 07:42 .

[o Ventus]

tomcplotts wrote...

I'm one of those people that thinks a rainbow farting unicorn ending trivializes the seriousness of the Reapers. I'm also one of those grumpasauruses that finds the LI obsession during the gameplay as well as the end a little creepy.

But if there's a way to keep a "happy" option in there to please the players that really need this, I'm all for it. As long as I can avoid it without sabotaging my own gameplay. And that's where I think the problem with this is. How do you access a happy ending? If it's by massing enough points, then those of us who would prefer something a little more balanced would have to shave our own accomplishments to "darken the game down".

This is one of those issues where I do think the story has to go the way the writers envision it for better or worse, because I don't think you can have radically different endings without significantly affecting someone's game. On the other hand, the sheer nihilism on display for the current ending is even worse than the dancing Ewoks ending some people were hoping for.

I know your post was well meaning, but the next time I see "unicorns and rainbows" and "dancing Ewoks" used in conjunction with ME3 in regards to a happy ending, I think I'm going to crack a skull or two. Nothing against you, but billions of unavoidable deaths and the loss of numerous close friends isn't remotely happy, regardless of how it turns out in the end.

[Storm258]

You got my support, OP. Pretty much the way I see it.

[Helios969]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

1. No ending is going to truly be happy. Billions died, earth, Palaven,
Thessia and a crap ton of other worlds are ruined. Friends are dead and
much of what was lost will never be replaced. It will only be happy in
the sense the Reapers are dead and you minimized what losses where you
could.

My preference for a "happier ending" would have preconditions that involve making more difficult choices (not just playing the game better or more thoroughly) at earlier points of the game (ideally significantly earlier parts of the game to prevent save scumming).  In fact, I'd even make it more interesting and set up the situation that the only way to have a "happier ending" would be for Paragons to have to choose a renegade option earlier in the game, and for Renegades to have to make a paragon option.  Make it so that if you want things to work out, sometimes you have to make choices you don't think are appropriate choices at other points.  (I'm actually not a fan of morality scoring systems like Paragon/Renegade because I think they make decisions that could be interesting just academic: "This gives me Paragon?  I'm picking that").


As for player choice, I am more just a fan of "does the game react to my choice in some capacity" as opposed to "I'd prefer to choose specifically how the narrative proceeds."  I think this has been the one thing I've learned the most since frequenting the forums though, as it seems many people (at least people on the BSN) prefer their choice to be more along the lines of "How would you like to proceed through the game" as opposed to difficult choices with no obvious good outcome.  As an example, while I think it's interesting for the crew to all die in ME2, it's really a situation that requires the player to consciously make "bad" game decisions in order to achieve.  That's less interesting in my opinion, but it is indeed a "choice" we can allow.

I like that idea, and that would work for me.  I always play my characters close to the way I am as a person and make choices based on how I think/act in a manner I would really chose/behave (never really know how you'll behave until you're actually in the situation.)  Your idea works well for me because I'm never wholly paragon (never played a renegade for the sake of playing one.)  I usually end a game at about 90-100 P and about 20-25 R.  Like in real life I try to be a good guy, but sometimes you have to be a d*ck or make aweful decisions.

[Joccaren]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

The problem I have with a situation like the Suicide Mission is that the ending is effectively a game score.  Especially given how easy it can be to achieve, not achieving a nearly flawless playthrough more says "You didn't win as well as you could have if only you had played better."

This also has the flipside problem of the current endings, in which if you can't succeed properly at the ending it can be interpreted as "You can't win". Both are legitimate problems, and largely mutually exclusive.

Personally, one way I see this working is having Suicide Mission mechanics play into getting through the Priority: Earth mission with more of your squad and forces alive, allowing you to make a choice at the end. One is doing things the hard way, which has its costs, but can be achieved "Perfectly", with no tragic losses of teammates, or races. The Other is making the ultimate sacrifice, kiling Shepard, destroying the Reapers instantly, and giving some bonus unachievable with the other ending.

Not perfect, but it allows each side some degree of getting their endings. Both are capable of "winning", each has its advantages and disadvantages, and dependent on how you weight each ending they could be equally ideal.

The whole "Now way to succeed" sort of thing is as big a problem as the "One true victory" thing, and it would be good if the ME team could fix this in the EC.