154 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

If there's one thing game development has taught me is that no matter how amazing you make something, someone is always going to hate it. By the same token, no matter how crappy you make something, someone is always going to love it. Just saying that there are people out there that love the ending doesn't justify it in any way.

No, but it doesn't mean we should outright dismiss what the smaller group is saying. I think it's also hubris to completely overlook the issues that people may have had with a game like Baldur's Gate 2 even if the majority really like it.

That goes both ways Alan. You also can't outright dismiss what the larger group is saying as well. 

Though the real problem here isn't about who is the "vocal minority" and the majority. The problem is that a rather large and passionate core of bioware's fanbase is up in arms here, and the company is at risk at losing a good chunk of them just because of the last 10 minutes of the game. On one side yes, there are a handful of people who may have liked the endings to an extent, but on the other side you have even more people who were upset at the endings. Not doing anything to the endings at all will get one side happy, but get the other side angry and frusterated and vice versa. So I understand why BW decided to make the Extended Cut as some sort of middle ground between the two. 

Though what I am afraid of is that you guys over there will somehow make the endings even worse than they are now. Right now, it's open ended and people are assuming the worst. But with the EC, I'm afraid they are just going to "clarify" pretty much how the entire normandy crew abadons shepard and starves to death, while the rest of the galaxy is suffering in a dark age therefore making your entire fight against the reapers pretty much meaningless. 

[M0keys]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

If there's one thing game development has taught me is that no matter how amazing you make something, someone is always going to hate it. By the same token, no matter how crappy you make something, someone is always going to love it. Just saying that there are people out there that love the ending doesn't justify it in any way.

No, but it doesn't mean we should outright dismiss what the smaller group is saying. I think it's also hubris to completely overlook the issues that people may have had with a game like Baldur's Gate 2 even if the majority really like it.

In the end you've taken the stance of superiority over your fans and supporters. You're sending the message to the fans that happy endings are just so beneath you, and that your amazing artistic integrity is more important then making games enjoyable. It's pure hubris.

I think this is just an interpretation and it's a bit unfair to make such a sweeping statement based upon the quality of the endings.

If this was actually the case, wouldn't story arcs like Tuchanka and Rannoch have played out very differently than what is provided? Or are those moments that we weren't displaying any sort of artistic integrity and just giving the fans what they wanted (i.e. those story arcs aren't actually what anyone on the team wanted?)

ah, but the best storywriters want what's best for the story. my friend grub says that stories, when being written, make "promises" and you have to listen carefully for them. sometimes you're deep in the material so maybe you don't hear the promises all the time, but the audience does. they can feel it on an unconscious level, and they become disturbed when the "promises" are broken, which they can be, because it's up to you. The Storyteller, to "make good" on them. Or break them, if you like. but it's your choice.

Tuchanka and Rannoch were most what people wanted because those were "promises" that were screaming very loudly within the story. "I am Tuchanka! I am Rannoch! We are themes and we will be fulfilled!"

but there are other promises, too! quieter ones that are no less important. one of them was a quiet promise spoken by every major character that said, "you will know what happens to us, and if we get the lives we wanted, when Shepard wins this war. Or we will perhaps all die if he fails."

So what the team, or more likely the head of the team, wants isn't always what's best for a story. Since stories like Mass Effect are based on "archetypes" that exist in everyone's head, these stories can become larger than even the team expected, and have independent lives of their own that live through the audience, and the audience lives  through them -- almost like a romance! So it is then, with a story having grown to this point of "neediness," that it becomes the careful duty of its creator or creators, to allow it to express itself in the way it most desires. Otherwise it's a story you've locked up in a tall tower, and you may force a heroic presence to come along and release it from imprisonment.

And that's a sordid mess for everybody isn't it?

[malakim2099]

TheOptimist wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

seriously

WTF is wrong with wanting the option for a happy ending?

let me repeat myself...THE OPTION for a happy ending.

Also, Chemiclord, I happen to be perfectly ok with golden endings and I find grimdark and bittersweet-hold-the-sweet endings to be a forced "we are mature and different" cliche of more recent times...BUT.. you are right. If you have to go with the "hero sacrifice" ending and blah blah blah be upfront about it. Like with Halo Reach, any fan knew that Reach=FUBAR...

Indeed.  I shudder to think that in the last 10 years or so I've played only 5 RPGs with an honest to goodness happy ending if you do everything right: Suikoden V, Kingdom Hearts 2, Jade Empire, Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance and FE: Radiant Dawn (I'd include ME1 and 2, but we know how that eventually turned out).  Maybe there are more and I've simply missed them, but those are the ones I know of. Now, in all five games, you have to work your butt off to get the best ending, but the possibility existed, and I loved it.

To any burgeoning game programmers/writers out there, I PROMISE a market exists for games where the protagonists can actually win.  I don't need every game series catered to me.  I get that there's a market for grimdark and bittersweet.  But seriously, can we get a AAA RPG game title with an ultimate ending that doesn't try to invoke wrist-slitting depression?

Dragon Age : Origins would fall in that category, I think. I mean, sure, there's the chaos of 2, but DA:O itself had a happy ending (at least if you were willing to Kirk it with Morrigan).

Also, Kingdoms of Amalur:Reckoning had a happy ending. Though apparently the studio has not had such a happy ending, which is too bad, because it was (honestly) a lot better game than ME3.

[warlock22]

Total Biscuit wrote...

Totally agree with the OP, forcing darkmiserable (bittersweet would require some sweet) on us no matter what just cheapens everything.

One of the big things Hudson talked up for this game was the concept of victory through sacrifice, and the ending as it stands completely undermines that concept, and is just heavy handed and emotionally hollow by forcing you down paths without any real choice or control over the things you actually care about.

Sacrifice Is meaningless and empty when you're forced into it. It's supposed to be what you're WILLING to give up, not what you HAVE to.

Well said! This right here people!

[TheOptimist]

malakim2099 wrote...

TheOptimist wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

seriously

WTF is wrong with wanting the option for a happy ending?

let me repeat myself...THE OPTION for a happy ending.

Also, Chemiclord, I happen to be perfectly ok with golden endings and I find grimdark and bittersweet-hold-the-sweet endings to be a forced "we are mature and different" cliche of more recent times...BUT.. you are right. If you have to go with the "hero sacrifice" ending and blah blah blah be upfront about it. Like with Halo Reach, any fan knew that Reach=FUBAR...

Indeed.  I shudder to think that in the last 10 years or so I've played only 5 RPGs with an honest to goodness happy ending if you do everything right: Suikoden V, Kingdom Hearts 2, Jade Empire, Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance and FE: Radiant Dawn (I'd include ME1 and 2, but we know how that eventually turned out).  Maybe there are more and I've simply missed them, but those are the ones I know of. Now, in all five games, you have to work your butt off to get the best ending, but the possibility existed, and I loved it.

To any burgeoning game programmers/writers out there, I PROMISE a market exists for games where the protagonists can actually win.  I don't need every game series catered to me.  I get that there's a market for grimdark and bittersweet.  But seriously, can we get a AAA RPG game title with an ultimate ending that doesn't try to invoke wrist-slitting depression?

Dragon Age : Origins would fall in that category, I think. I mean, sure, there's the chaos of 2, but DA:O itself had a happy ending (at least if you were willing to Kirk it with Morrigan).

Also, Kingdoms of Amalur:Reckoning had a happy ending. Though apparently the studio has not had such a happy ending, which is too bad, because it was (honestly) a lot better game than ME3.

I considered naming DA: O, because if you're willing to give Morrigan the benefit of the doubt,  ( whether she's your LI or not), you can head cannon that nothing bad will happen from the putting the power of an ancient god into her child.  My one problem with doing so is that it's still head cannon, and it is heavily implied elsewhere that allowing Morrigan to go through with her plan means merely delaying the disaster.  Also, because whatever course you choose, in DA2 you have disappeared with no explanation. again with grim implications.  I suppose ultimately I left it out because we don't yet know the Hero of Fereldan's ultimate fate if you didn't kill him/her off in the first game.  As for Kingdoms of Amalur, I haven't played it.  I may give it a shot though.

Modifié par TheOptimist, 31 mai 2012 - 09:55 .

[Festilence]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

1. No ending is going to truly be happy. Billions died, earth, Palaven,
Thessia and a crap ton of other worlds are ruined. Friends are dead and
much of what was lost will never be replaced. It will only be happy in
the sense the Reapers are dead and you minimized what losses where you
could.

I don't think this works for the same reason that many have said the current endings are unsatisfying because they're less emotionally invested in the faceless masses and the fact that the future no longer needs to worry about systemic extermination at the hands of the Reapers.


The problem I have with a situation like the Suicide Mission is that the ending is effectively a game score.  Especially given how easy it can be to achieve, not achieving a nearly flawless playthrough more says "You didn't win as well as you could have if only you had played better."

I prefer endings that are qualitatively similar.  That is, an ending where it's not as obvious which one is the "more ideal result."

My preference for a "happier ending" would have preconditions that involve making more difficult choices (not just playing the game better or more thoroughly) at earlier points of the game (ideally significantly earlier parts of the game to prevent save scumming).  In fact, I'd even make it more interesting and set up the situation that the only way to have a "happier ending" would be for Paragons to have to choose a renegade option earlier in the game, and for Renegades to have to make a paragon option.  Make it so that if you want things to work out, sometimes you have to make choices you don't think are appropriate choices at other points.  (I'm actually not a fan of morality scoring systems like Paragon/Renegade because I think they make decisions that could be interesting just academic: "This gives me Paragon?  I'm picking that").


As for player choice, I am more just a fan of "does the game react to my choice in some capacity" as opposed to "I'd prefer to choose specifically how the narrative proceeds."  I think this has been the one thing I've learned the most since frequenting the forums though, as it seems many people (at least people on the BSN) prefer their choice to be more along the lines of "How would you like to proceed through the game" as opposed to difficult choices with no obvious good outcome.  As an example, while I think it's interesting for the crew to all die in ME2, it's really a situation that requires the player to consciously make "bad" game decisions in order to achieve.  That's less interesting in my opinion, but it is indeed a "choice" we can allow.

Very interesting post and I agree with your thoughts about the Paragon/Renegade system.  As you seem to suggest, I believe that choices in such games work best if they don't contribute to any kind of measurement of good/bad morality or equivalent.  The choices should just be there and it is up to the player to decide what choice to pick, for whatever reasons they like.

You also make a very good point about everyone being able to die in ME2.  When I first played through ME2, it was with an imported play through from ME1 where I completed every Quest, Side-Quest, Exploration, DLC etc possible.  I basically did the same for ME2 and everyone survived the Suicide Mission.  So basically every play through I do of ME2 after that, I would intentially do as little as possible on the game, purchase no Normandy upgrades etc, in order to try and fail the Suicide Mission.

[Pelle6666]

I would be happy if the fate of the geth and Edi was tied to the EMS that you gathered! I also want the game to SHOW me that the Normandy crew is not marooned for the rest of their lives and that interstellar travel is still possible!

[malakim2099]

TheOptimist wrote...

malakim2099 wrote...

TheOptimist wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

seriously

WTF is wrong with wanting the option for a happy ending?

let me repeat myself...THE OPTION for a happy ending.

Also, Chemiclord, I happen to be perfectly ok with golden endings and I find grimdark and bittersweet-hold-the-sweet endings to be a forced "we are mature and different" cliche of more recent times...BUT.. you are right. If you have to go with the "hero sacrifice" ending and blah blah blah be upfront about it. Like with Halo Reach, any fan knew that Reach=FUBAR...

Indeed.  I shudder to think that in the last 10 years or so I've played only 5 RPGs with an honest to goodness happy ending if you do everything right: Suikoden V, Kingdom Hearts 2, Jade Empire, Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance and FE: Radiant Dawn (I'd include ME1 and 2, but we know how that eventually turned out).  Maybe there are more and I've simply missed them, but those are the ones I know of. Now, in all five games, you have to work your butt off to get the best ending, but the possibility existed, and I loved it.

To any burgeoning game programmers/writers out there, I PROMISE a market exists for games where the protagonists can actually win.  I don't need every game series catered to me.  I get that there's a market for grimdark and bittersweet.  But seriously, can we get a AAA RPG game title with an ultimate ending that doesn't try to invoke wrist-slitting depression?

Dragon Age : Origins would fall in that category, I think. I mean, sure, there's the chaos of 2, but DA:O itself had a happy ending (at least if you were willing to Kirk it with Morrigan).

Also, Kingdoms of Amalur:Reckoning had a happy ending. Though apparently the studio has not had such a happy ending, which is too bad, because it was (honestly) a lot better game than ME3.

I considered naming DA: O, because if you're willing to give Morrigan the benefit of the doubt,  ( whether she's your LI or not), you can head cannon that nothing bad will happen from the putting the power of an ancient god into her child.  My one problem with doing so is that it's still head cannon, and it is heavily implied elsewhere that allowing Morrigan to go through with her plan means merely delaying the disaster.  Also, because whatever course you choose, in DA2 you have disappeared with no explanation. again with grim implications.  I suppose ultimately I left it out because we don't yet know the Hero of Fereldan's ultimate fate if you didn't kill him/her off in the first game.  As for Kingdoms of Amalur, I haven't played it.  I may give it a shot though.

Well, with the implications of the Witch Hunt DLC and DA2, I think that Morrigan/Flemeth are trying to do what they can to preserve Magic in the world, by using the child with the soul of the Old God. And frankly, if Morrigan is your LI, you can go with her through the Eluvian to raise your child with her at the end of that DLC. So I'd say it's a bit more than head canon at that point. But really, even DA2 isn't as grimdark as ME3's ending, if only because DA2 is the "Empire Strikes Back" and there's still DA3 "Return of the Jedi" lurking.

But seriously, I'd give KOA a shot. It's a really good game, kind of a cross between DA:O and Skyrim, with WoW colors. (Not everything is shades of brown, there's COLOR!)

[crimzontearz]

TheOptimist wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...seriouslyWTF is wrong with wanting the option for a happy ending?let me repeat myself...THE OPTION for a happy ending.Also, Chemiclord, I happen to be perfectly ok with golden endings and I find grimdark and bittersweet-hold-the-sweet endings to be a forced "we are mature and different" cliche of more recent times...BUT.. you are right. If you have to go with the "hero sacrifice" ending and blah blah blah be upfront about it. Like with Halo Reach, any fan knew that Reach=FUBAR...

Indeed.  I shudder to think that in the last 10 years or so I've played only 5 RPGs with an honest to goodness happy ending if you do everything right: Suikoden V, Kingdom Hearts 2, Jade Empire, Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance and FE: Radiant Dawn (I'd include ME1 and 2, but we know how that eventually turned out).  Maybe there are more and I've simply missed them, but those are the ones I know of. Now, in all five games, you have to work your butt off to get the best ending, but the possibility existed, and I loved it.To any burgeoning game programmers/writers out there, I PROMISE a market exists for games where the protagonists can actually win.  I don't need every game series catered to me.  I get that there's a market for grimdark and bittersweet.  But seriously, can we get a AAA RPG game title with an ultimate ending that doesn't try to invoke wrist-slitting depression?

you missed one of the best ones

VAMPIRE: THE MASQUERADE - REDEMPTION

it had an ABC ending BUT the results were very varied and it goddamn had a happy ending which is saying something seen as the pnp game it is based on is a personal horror game

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Look, we worked hard. We did all the missions in the game. We did all the side quests. We found all the resources. We completed the game. Then we get the message "Work diligently with integrity. You'll always get your reward." -- right -- And that's the elevator to WTF?

You know I didn't play a game for a week afterward? The ending sucked my soul out. Now of course I'm numb to it. I just realize I hate the ending. It's decent story, but the ending sucks.

You go up the elevator and are greeted by the worst mass murderer in history. Genocide in the quintillions, and it justifies it with this order and chaos bull****. The thing and its minions need to be eliminated. Dead. Die. Destroyed. Ended. Period. But, the Crucible changed it. It made it realize that its "(final) solution" no longer worked.

I've gone over the endings already and what they mean. And with the relays dead and gone, FTL travel? That's going to be a joke. No one is getting home. No one. It will take too long. Ships break down.

So the ending is dark. It is nihilistic. We needed a happy ending too. An ending where we have hope. None of the endings have any hope. The two where you surrender to Starbrat you've given up hope. Destroy you have no hope, but at least the ****er and its minions are gone.

What happened to hope? Is having hope for the future a bad thing these days? Have these apocalyptic people gotten into our culture's collective heads so much that people have completely lost it? I don't know. If that's happened it can become a self-fulfilling prophesy.

So I don't think it would have been so bad to have had a way of having a happy ending. Shepard gasping for a breath of air doesn't cut it. That is not enough. "Use your imagination to fill in the blanks" is just pure laziness or writerspeak for "we ran out of time and we're not going to fix it. Artistic integrity!!!!!"

[20x6]

Omanisat wrote...

I agree, there should be an option for a happy ending. It's not like it would be unprecedented for the series. The whole of ME2 was spent telling you "it's a suicide mission, people gonna die, gonna loose people." But with proper preparation it's entirely possible to achieve a happy ending.

Yeah.  It basically showed you how Eff'n Awesome Shepard was and WHY bringing him back to life was a good investment.

The Illusive Man knew Shepard's worth... it's too bad 'Artistic Integrity' didn't.

[crimzontearz]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...Look, we worked hard. We did all the missions in the game. We did all the side quests. We found all the resources. We completed the game. Then we get the message "Work diligently with integrity. You'll always get your reward." -- right -- And that's the elevator to WTF?You know I didn't play a game for a week afterward? The ending sucked my soul out. Now of course I'm numb to it. I just realize I hate the ending. It's decent story, but the ending sucks. You go up the elevator and are greeted by the worst mass murderer in history. Genocide in the quintillions, and it justifies it with this order and chaos bull****. The thing and its minions need to be eliminated. Dead. Die. Destroyed. Ended. Period. But, the Crucible changed it. It made it realize that its "(final) solution" no longer worked. I've gone over the endings already and what they mean. And with the relays dead and gone, FTL travel? That's going to be a joke. No one is getting home. No one. It will take too long. Ships break down. So the ending is dark. It is nihilistic. We needed a happy ending too. An ending where we have hope. None of the endings have any hope. The two where you surrender to Starbrat you've given up hope. Destroy you have no hope, but at least the ****er and its minions are gone. What happened to hope? Is having hope for the future a bad thing these days? Have these apocalyptic people gotten into our culture's collective heads so much that people have completely lost it? I don't know. If that's happened it can become a self-fulfilling prophesy. So I don't think it would have been so bad to have had a way of having a happy ending. Shepard gasping for a breath of air doesn't cut it. That is not enough. "Use your imagination to fill in the blanks" is just pure laziness or writerspeak for "we ran out of time and we're not going to fix it. Artistic integrity!!!!!"

ever played Vampire: the masquerade - redemption?

[TheOptimist]

crimzontearz wrote...

TheOptimist wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...seriouslyWTF is wrong with wanting the option for a happy ending?let me repeat myself...THE OPTION for a happy ending.Also, Chemiclord, I happen to be perfectly ok with golden endings and I find grimdark and bittersweet-hold-the-sweet endings to be a forced "we are mature and different" cliche of more recent times...BUT.. you are right. If you have to go with the "hero sacrifice" ending and blah blah blah be upfront about it. Like with Halo Reach, any fan knew that Reach=FUBAR...

Indeed.  I shudder to think that in the last 10 years or so I've played only 5 RPGs with an honest to goodness happy ending if you do everything right: Suikoden V, Kingdom Hearts 2, Jade Empire, Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance and FE: Radiant Dawn (I'd include ME1 and 2, but we know how that eventually turned out).  Maybe there are more and I've simply missed them, but those are the ones I know of. Now, in all five games, you have to work your butt off to get the best ending, but the possibility existed, and I loved it.To any burgeoning game programmers/writers out there, I PROMISE a market exists for games where the protagonists can actually win.  I don't need every game series catered to me.  I get that there's a market for grimdark and bittersweet.  But seriously, can we get a AAA RPG game title with an ultimate ending that doesn't try to invoke wrist-slitting depression?

you missed one of the best ones

VAMPIRE: THE MASQUERADE - REDEMPTION

it had an ABC ending BUT the results were very varied and it goddamn had a happy ending which is saying something seen as the pnp game it is based on is a personal horror game

Seriously? I honestly expected that game to be horribly depressing and passed.  I'll have to look into it.

[crimzontearz]

TheOptimist wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...TheOptimist wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...seriouslyWTF is wrong with wanting the option for a happy ending?let me repeat myself...THE OPTION for a happy ending.Also, Chemiclord, I happen to be perfectly ok with golden endings and I find grimdark and bittersweet-hold-the-sweet endings to be a forced "we are mature and different" cliche of more recent times...BUT.. you are right. If you have to go with the "hero sacrifice" ending and blah blah blah be upfront about it. Like with Halo Reach, any fan knew that Reach=FUBAR... Indeed.  I shudder to think that in the last 10 years or so I've played only 5 RPGs with an honest to goodness happy ending if you do everything right: Suikoden V, Kingdom Hearts 2, Jade Empire, Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance and FE: Radiant Dawn (I'd include ME1 and 2, but we know how that eventually turned out).  Maybe there are more and I've simply missed them, but those are the ones I know of. Now, in all five games, you have to work your butt off to get the best ending, but the possibility existed, and I loved it.To any burgeoning game programmers/writers out there, I PROMISE a market exists for games where the protagonists can actually win.  I don't need every game series catered to me.  I get that there's a market for grimdark and bittersweet.  But seriously, can we get a AAA RPG game title with an ultimate ending that doesn't try to invoke wrist-slitting depression?

you missed one of the best onesVAMPIRE: THE MASQUERADE - REDEMPTIONit had an ABC ending BUT the results were very varied and it goddamn had a happy ending which is saying something seen as the pnp game it is based on is a personal horror game

Seriously? I honestly expected that game to be horribly depressing and passed.  I'll have to look into it.

I would even say 2 out of the 3 endings are happy.....the third one is a kick in the balls

[tjc2]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
As for player choice, I am more just a fan of "does the game react to my choice in some capacity" as opposed to "I'd prefer to choose specifically how the narrative proceeds."  I think this has been the one thing I've learned the most since frequenting the forums though, as it seems many people (at least people on the BSN) prefer their choice to be more along the lines of "How would you like to proceed through the game" as opposed to difficult choices with no obvious good outcome.  As an example, while I think it's interesting for the crew to all die in ME2, it's really a situation that requires the player to consciously make "bad" game decisions in order to achieve.  That's less interesting in my opinion, but it is indeed a "choice" we can allow.

The people on this forum are irritated by the ending; they are also people who play and enjoy games with 'zero' choice; the honest truth is that the 'idea' of choice was over advertised; further the ending was illogical; though, one must admit this was likely do to time/money as well as promising far too much from 'player' choice.

Imagine if Christopher Nolan asked 'fans' to help decide the 'ending' of The Dark Knight Rises during the showing of the film this summer...

Personally: I wish ME3 had ended, similar to the film Inception, where the audience got to ponder what really happend. I think this may have been what the writer(s) of the ending intended; however one must admit it was not pulled off...

[crimzontearz]

tjc2 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...As for player choice, I am more just a fan of "does the game react to my choice in some capacity" as opposed to "I'd prefer to choose specifically how the narrative proceeds."  I think this has been the one thing I've learned the most since frequenting the forums though, as it seems many people (at least people on the BSN) prefer their choice to be more along the lines of "How would you like to proceed through the game" as opposed to difficult choices with no obvious good outcome.  As an example, while I think it's interesting for the crew to all die in ME2, it's really a situation that requires the player to consciously make "bad" game decisions in order to achieve.  That's less interesting in my opinion, but it is indeed a "choice" we can allow.

The people on this forum are irritated by the ending; they are also people who play and enjoy games with 'zero' choice; the honest truth is that the 'idea' of choice was over advertised; further the ending was illogical; though, one must admit this was likely do to time/money as well as promising far too much from 'player' choice.Imagine if Christopher Nolan asked 'fans' to help decide the 'ending' of The Dark Knight Rises during the showing of the film this summer...Personally: I wish ME3 had ended, similar to the film Inception, where the audience got to ponder what really happend. I think this may have been what the writer(s) of the ending intended; however one must admit it was not pulled off...

uh....michael came kinda explained that

[tjc2]

crimzontearz wrote...
uh....michael came kinda explained that

Sorry if I copied what someone else said; I honeslty just read the 'Bioware' posts.

Modifié par tjc2, 31 mai 2012 - 11:39 .

[chemiclord]

crimzontearz wrote...

seriously

WTF is wrong with wanting the option for a happy ending?

let me repeat myself...THE OPTION for a happy ending.

Also, Chemiclord, I happen to be perfectly ok with golden endings and I find grimdark and bittersweet-hold-the-sweet endings to be a forced "we are mature and different" cliche of more recent times...BUT.. you are right. If you have to go with the "hero sacrifice" ending and blah blah blah be upfront about it. Like with Halo Reach, any fan knew that Reach=FUBAR...

I suppose it really depends on what you feel a story should be.

If you feel fiction should be an escape from reality (which is a more Romantic Period ideal), then yes, the storybook "golden endings" are what you desire.  To them, you get enough reality from reality; you don't need more staring you in the face when you try and sit down and enjoy something.  The "grimdark" period storytelling is stuck in right now feels like creators are just mean-spirited ****holes that hate the world, and want everyone else to hate it as much as they do.

But there's another side, a more Modernist ideal that fiction should reflect and encapsulate reality rather than escape it, exposing its warts rather than running from them.  For those people, golden endings are an eye-rolling, childish exercise in tedium.  For people (like me), I like my endings that deliver observational (if harsh) lessons about the world around us.  And one of those lessons is that even if you do everything right, sometimes it means jack squat, and life is going to teabag you regardless.  Suck it up, take it, and move on, because you really don't have any other choice.

That said, it's not inherently wrong to feel the way you do, especially when a game series had for two games given you the theme that if you do everything right, everything good will happen.  To pull the rug out from under the fans with no warning in the final game of that series would no doubt feel like a slap in the face.  I understand the disappointment, even if I don't share it.

[crimzontearz]

chemiclord wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...seriouslyWTF is wrong with wanting the option for a happy ending?let me repeat myself...THE OPTION for a happy ending.Also, Chemiclord, I happen to be perfectly ok with golden endings and I find grimdark and bittersweet-hold-the-sweet endings to be a forced "we are mature and different" cliche of more recent times...BUT.. you are right. If you have to go with the "hero sacrifice" ending and blah blah blah be upfront about it. Like with Halo Reach, any fan knew that Reach=FUBAR...

I suppose it really depends on what you feel a story should be.If you feel fiction should be an escape from reality (which is a more Romantic Period ideal), then yes, the storybook "golden endings" are what you desire.  To them, you get enough reality from reality; you don't need more staring you in the face when you try and sit down and enjoy something.  The "grimdark" period storytelling is stuck in right now feels like creators are just mean-spirited ****holes that hate the world, and want everyone else to hate it as much as they do.But there's another side, a more Modernist ideal that fiction should reflect and encapsulate reality rather than escape it, exposing its warts rather than running from them.  For those people, golden endings are an eye-rolling, childish exercise in tedium.  For people (like me), I like my endings that deliver observational (if harsh) lessons about the world around us.  And one of those lessons is that even if you do everything right, sometimes it means jack squat, and life is going to teabag you regardless.  Suck it up, take it, and move on, because you really don't have any other choice.That said, it's not inherently wrong to feel the way you do, especially when a game series had for two games given you the theme that if you do everything right, everything good will happen.  To pull the rug out from under the fans with no warning in the final game of that series would no doubt feel like a slap in the face.  I understand the disappointment, even if I don't share it.

and I agree... if I wanted harsh life lessons I would play other games





I KNEW how reach was going to end and still played it because I KNEW ( tho there is speculation even there)

[crimzontearz]

tjc2 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...uh....michael came kinda explained that

Sorry if I copied what someone else said; I honeslty just read the 'Bioware' posts.

no...I mean you said you wanted an Inception ending ..Michael Cane explained that ending

[Unbel1ever]

The problem with the ending in its current state to me is not so much its sadness, but the lack of two things: choice and hope. The ending we have got now actually leaves very little room for interpretation. Hence, no hope for the positive. The fictional universe you have come to love is destroyed - no matter what you do. There are desperate attempts to undo this by explaining it away (IT), but the fact remains: The ME story is dead. There's nothing left. A possible ME4 will have to be in an entirely new setting and thus be a reboot. The fact, that you can't do anything about it in a game of choice makes you feel cheated on top of hopeless. When I played ME3 I was expecting the hard choices, i.e. sacrificing something to achieve sth. else. The game does that to a degree, but the end does not. The only sacrifice I see is the death of Shepard and it gains me... what exactly?

[PsyrenY]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

then the ending happens, mass relays go Boom and right now we only have one moment in the games that explains what happens when a relay goes boom. *the controlled explosion explained through twitter doesn't count, that kind of explanation should have been in the game*

there ya go, the hard work you did to save the two planets was overwritten the moment the ending happened as they are now space dust.

Apparently you need Twitter to use logic too? The circumstances of the Arrival explosion are VASTLY different than those of the Crucible. You see only the darkest possibility because you wish to.

[RocketManSR2]

I just wanted a damn reunion with crew/LI like the first 2 games had. I didn't even get that. Just a big, artistic "f*** you" from BioWare.

[tjc2]

crimzontearz wrote...

tjc2 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...uh....michael came kinda explained that

Sorry if I copied what someone else said; I honeslty just read the 'Bioware' posts.

no...I mean you said you wanted an Inception ending ..Michael Cane explained that ending

Oh really, I actually prefer when I get to make up the ending; I guess writers are just narcissitic that way

Ill have to look up the 'Cane' explanation.

*Edit: I read what Michael Cane said; while what he said could be the 'cannon,' intended ending, it is okay for fans to makeup whatever they want, interpret, what happend.

Remember all 'media' is art; in the sense that the audience gets to decide what happens 'after;' though of course that does not justify the illogical ME3 ending; even 'art' can be bad art.

Modifié par tjc2, 01 juin 2012 - 12:07 .

[crimzontearz]

tjc2 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...tjc2 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...uh....michael came kinda explained thatSorry if I copied what someone else said; I honeslty just read the 'Bioware' posts.

no...I mean you said you wanted an Inception ending ..Michael Cane explained that ending

Oh really, I actually prefer when I get to make up the ending; I guess writers are just narcissitic that way :)Ill have to look up the 'Cane' explanation.

His explanation is that the end is not a dream because his character never features in dream scenes thus the ending is not a dream