464 réponses à ce sujet

[The Amazing Thornado]

$7 DLC to add [1] cloaks to the game.
$7 DLC to animate the aforementioned cloak.
$7 DLC for "[1] more cloaks".

People actually buying into this ploy: Priceless.

[foil-]

David Gaider wrote...

foil- wrote...
Truth be told, if there is no better way to make a feature request or guage the viewers interest in a feature, then why not speek up or poll.  If your company decided to go collect more reliable data for certain features to show us our quest for cloaks is not a marketable trend, then I won't argue with your methods.  But wouldn't it just be less expensive to implement cloaks

Yet what I'm saying is that "reliable data" on how many people might kinda like cloaks is not useful information. We don't expect you guys to keep in mind the costs of such features -- how could you? So when you make requests you're asking for stuff that you'd like to see... because you like them. Which is great, and knowing that features are desired certainly does inform us. But if you want to actually convince any of us that a feature such as cloaks is actually more than just something that most people would kinda sorta like you need to actually convince us that it is a useful feature. Not just "nice to have" for that moment of "hey cool! cloaks!" but something that actually makes it a better game (and by that I mean a line of reasoning slightly improved from "it adds to immersion!" -- which, as we all know, can be used to argue any feature). Because beyond that my answer remains "yes, we know it'd be nice to have and that some people would think it's cool." Providing more reinforcement of that idea does not make it a more valuable feature.

Does that make sense? You did ask, after all.

Not to drag you through the mud, but that's a common thread I hear in many BioWare responses that I just have a little trouble agreeing with.  It can be that simple.  Many features are added just because they look cool. The issue is wether they look cool enough and it will help sales, which I do believe cloaks will.  But like any other visual feature, like face expressions, or dragons swooping into the air, they are hard to judge how much they add to saleability and are finally left to a few people to decide on the risk/benefit of implementing them without much expensive market research.  If that's not how it is at BioWare, feel free to correct me.

And I really, really, hope to see you folks at BioWare get your appreciation for the term imersion back.  I don't know who in your office started shunning the term and spread it like a cancer, but its likely he just heard it too often.  The word imersion, or atmosphere, when used in context, are generally understandable.  And they are also very clear when they are used out of context.  You just have to read it critically and know when its being abused and not throw the word out entirely.  We had a discussion about this in another forum.  Its pretty clear that someone asking for turnbase combat because it adds imersion or atmosphere is butchering the use of it.  Its also equally clear what someone means when they say adding shadows, sound effects, flowing cloaks, cool combat animations, realistic cobwebs, or facial expressions, adds to imersion and atmosphere.  It pulls you more into the worlds as if you were reading a book, looking at a painting, or walking through a forest.  It invokes imagery that you see in cinema or in your imagination when you read a book.  I remember an Everquest2 designer (never actually played the game, but anyway) who was working on the cloth animation system and describing with passion how it added to imersion in the world.  I would like to see developers regain that appreciation for imersion and let the project managers shoot holes through terms because they have to worry about costs of immersion.  Project management is a crappy job anyway and will just make you bitter if you're not carefull.  It starts to show when simple terms like imersion are faced with frustration.

And as for my reason for Cloaks: You folks will need to expand your combat tactic offerings as you advance into sequels: And Cloak and Dagger combat skill is just too cool to pass up

Modifié par foil-, 14 décembre 2009 - 06:46 .

[foil-]

Maconbar wrote...

How much would everyone be willing to pay for cloaks? (Or mounts while we are at it?)

Personally, about 10$.  But I think the game could only bear 5$ increase for them if that.   Maybe something would have had to be chopped for cloaks.

[abnocte]

I want cloak/capes only, and only if the following animations are added as well:

Ogre:

When your PC is going to jump to finish the ogre your cape/cloaks gets entwined with a fallen tree making you fall back to the ground and giving the ogre an attack of oportunity where he will smash/squish you to the ground.

Dragon:

Your PC will have to pass a willpower + dexterity check to avoid his cape/cloak getting entwined the dragon’s teeth, if the PC fails he will have to pass a constitution check to avoid a broken neck and suffocating.

Now that will add a LOT to immersion……..

 <_<

 

[foil-]

abnocte wrote...

I want cloak/capes only, and only if the following animations are added as well:

Ogre:

When your PC is going to jump to finish the ogre your cape/cloaks gets entwined with a fallen tree making you fall back to the ground and giving the ogre an attack of oportunity where he will smash/squish you to the ground.

Dragon:

Your PC will have to pass a willpower + dexterity check to avoid his cape/cloak getting entwined the dragon’s teeth, if the PC fails he will have to pass a constitution check to avoid a broken neck and suffocating.

Now that will add a LOT to immersion……..

 <_<

 

And realism, yes you are right.  You could make the game like a comedy where these things happens.  Or you could suspend disbeleif and treat it like any of the wonderfully visual movies that show cloaks while in combat.  Did Lord of the Rings do it?  I can't remember.  I'm pretty sure Ralph Bashski did it with the cartoon.  And many other movies. 

But you could avoid any cloak misshaps and train for it using the soon to be implemented Cloak and Dagger skill.

By the way, what is more dangerous.  Wearing a cloak in combat or dual weilding 2 longswords?

[Brightarrow]

Ok would it help to say we would be willing to pay 5 dollars us currency in dlc for a cloak? or would it cost more. lets see you would maybe have to find all the merchants in game you want to sell the cloaks or make a quest with dialog and all. the quest might actually cost more do to all the possible dialog trees and time consumed on the writing and coding for the thing. but would it be easier to just put the cloaks on a merchant and then write code for that cloak that would work in the game? I have no clue how much time that would take to implement when you are making new down load conntent for us which we are waiting for .... I know im waiting for return to ostegar... cloaks would be nice and if such a quest or add to a merchent were available for download content with no other content in it i would pay up to $5 for it if it was a VERY NICE cloak mind you.

[foil-]

Brightarrow wrote...

Ok would it help to say we would be willing to pay 5 dollars us currency in dlc for a cloak? or would it cost more. lets see you would maybe have to find all the merchants in game you want to sell the cloaks or make a quest with dialog and all. the quest might actually cost more do to all the possible dialog trees and time consumed on the writing and coding for the thing. but would it be easier to just put the cloaks on a merchant and then write code for that cloak that would work in the game? I have no clue how much time that would take to implement when you are making new down load conntent for us which we are waiting for .... I know im waiting for return to ostegar... cloaks would be nice and if such a quest or add to a merchent were available for download content with no other content in it i would pay up to $5 for it if it was a VERY NICE cloak mind you.

Oh, I was interpretting his question as meaining a sequel and included in the price of a 50 - 60 dollar game.  As DLC, with maybe a little story surrounding the first cloak you obtain (Rudlab's cloak maybe ?), I would pay upwards of 12$ - 15$.

Modifié par foil-, 14 décembre 2009 - 07:32 .

[Mordaedil]

Pha! Paying for cloaks, are you ridiculous man! Who would waste money on a small feature that just adds a visible bonus that flaps vividly in the wind and throws itself around your body as you behold the sun setting in the distance and when you fight some orc, it randomly flaps around, making your dance of death all the more impressive, like a ballet in action...



... $15.

[foil-]

300 fight scene.

[bjdbwea]

Today, you can't expect to get stuff like that implemented in a patch anymore (like BioWare did with NWN 1). That said, it would be a good feature to implement with DLC. Because it would be something real, something new, instead of amulets or recolored armor. I wouldn't buy it, but others certainly would. And come on with the "costs" argument, it isn't that hard. As said before, you don't even need to make it physically correct. A lot of other things in the game aren't.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 14 décembre 2009 - 08:04 .

[abnocte]

foil- wrote...

And realism, yes you are right.  You could make the game like a comedy where these things happens.  Or you could suspend disbeleif and treat it like any of the wonderfully visual movies that show cloaks while in combat.  Did Lord of the Rings do it?  I can't remember.  I'm pretty sure Ralph Bashski did it with the cartoon.  And many other movies. 

But you could avoid any cloak misshaps and train for it using the soon to be implemented Cloak and Dagger skill.

By the way, what is more dangerous.  Wearing a cloak in combat or dual weilding 2 longswords?

...Cloak and Dagger skill? ala roman gladiators with webs and tridents? 

I don't know about LOTR videogame, but you are refering to movies... you cant compare the amount of work it takes in a movie to do a cool figth with cloaks, with the one needed in a videogame.  
I think a lot of people here take for granted all the animations this videogame has.  Note that if cloaks were added ALL animations for finishing moves and combat should be redone, and thats one hell of a job.

Some of you say that you dont really care if cloaks dont look that good, then whats the point of having them?

I think Bioware made the wise decision, they know that people would like to have cloaks, horses and what not, but you have to be realistic with what you want to deliver and what you can deliver in a videogame, and as I see DAO, nor cloaks neither horses would add to gameplay/history.

[Clovis-]

David Gaider wrote...
But if you want to actually convince any of us that a feature such as cloaks is actually more than just something that most people would kinda sorta like you need to actually convince us that it is a useful feature. Not just "nice to have" for that moment of "hey cool! cloaks!" but something that actually makes it a better game (and by that I mean a line of reasoning slightly improved from "it adds to immersion!" -- which, as we all know, can be used to argue any feature).

Mr. Gaider,

while I sympathize with your difficult position in all this; I can't help but notice you've made this argument for optional 'features' like cloaks on a number of occasions. While I can't fathom a concrete "game-play" reason for why cloaks should draw resources from alternative features that could presumably enhance "game-play" (aside from immersion, loot, customization, style, fanfare, etc.); can you honestly tell me that all the features that are in Dragon Age currently have a practical/actuarial/"game-play" enhancing logic behind each and every implementation? (that aren't immersion, loot, customization, style, fanfare, etc)

If your answer to that question is "No", then can you think of examples for these non-practical features, and whether they are some of the features in which Bioware fans have come to associate with the Bioware brand itself?

If you consider some features in Dragon Age to fall into this line of questioning, then wouldn't that make your view of what is important about a game experience somewhat limited to the sum of its parts, and nothing more?



If not; then perhaps I have a different perception of certain features that are in most Bioware games.

   

Modifié par Clovis-, 14 décembre 2009 - 09:03 .

[David Gaider]

Clovis- wrote...
while I sympathize with your difficult position in all this; I can't help but notice you've made this argument for optional 'features' like cloaks on a number of occasions. While I can't fathom a concrete "game-play" reason for why cloaks should draw resources from alternative features that could presumably enhance "game-play" (aside from immersion, loot, customization, style, fanfare, etc.); can you honestly tell me that all the features that are in Dragon Age currently have a practical/actuarial/"game-play" enhancing logic behind each and every implementation? (that aren't immersion, loot, customization, style, fanfare, etc)

No, but in those cases we are either capitalizing on already-existing features or the cost of implementation is small. The main reason you don't see things like cloaks and mounts very often is because the cost of implementation is too high for what is essentially a "nice to have" feature.

And I make this argument often because I end up repeating myself.

I think I'm ready to stop, to be honest. Sorry, but the onus in this case is on those who think this is a really important feature to convince us it is so. Otherwise you'll simply have to be satisfied if and when we get the ability to include it on the list of "cool things we'd like to include regardless of the cost" -- because, yes, we'd like to do that as much as we possibly can.

And that's really all there is to it.

[Clovis-]

Well that's a fair position. I wish I had a miraculous unquestionable logic to offer, so that my personal preferences are appeased; alas, I do not. Perhaps the variable of cost to implement could be overcome by some miraculous idea on the part of your dev team; and they should get a raise!



Appreciate your time, I love Dragon Age and your novels, and your avatar suits you perfectly.

[foil-]

abnocte wrote...

foil- wrote...

And realism, yes you are right.  You could make the game like a comedy where these things happens.  Or you could suspend disbeleif and treat it like any of the wonderfully visual movies that show cloaks while in combat.  Did Lord of the Rings do it?  I can't remember.  I'm pretty sure Ralph Bashski did it with the cartoon.  And many other movies. 

But you could avoid any cloak misshaps and train for it using the soon to be implemented Cloak and Dagger skill.

By the way, what is more dangerous.  Wearing a cloak in combat or dual weilding 2 longswords?

...Cloak and Dagger skill? ala roman gladiators with webs and tridents? 

I don't know about LOTR videogame, but you are refering to movies... you cant compare the amount of work it takes in a movie to do a cool figth with cloaks, with the one needed in a videogame.  
I think a lot of people here take for granted all the animations this videogame has.  Note that if cloaks were added ALL animations for finishing moves and combat should be redone, and thats one hell of a job.

Some of you say that you dont really care if cloaks dont look that good, then whats the point of having them?

I think Bioware made the wise decision, they know that people would like to have cloaks, horses and what not, but you have to be realistic with what you want to deliver and what you can deliver in a videogame, and as I see DAO, nor cloaks neither horses would add to gameplay/history.

Yes. I was refering to movies here.  And its probably more expensive to do in a movie.  You might be overestimating what they are paying game programmers a tad.   Just delinting Russel Crow's cloak probably costs more than implementing cloaks in Dragon Age.  And this after it becoming pretty clear that the video game industry is pulling way ahead of the movie industry as an entertainment media where gross sales are concerned.  If they can't afford to pay a programmer another year of wages to implement cloaks, then they are yanking your chain.  This game was as near to a sure thing as games get these days.  If they can fly 30 people to london, rent and set up the space and all the staff and actors, and pay a 50k reward, that amount of money would likely pay two programmers for a year.  I'm not one for unions, but if there was ever a group of overworked people that need to bring their wages more into line with their expertise and work load, its game programmers.  I have a feeling though that the BioWare people are in the upper percentile of wages for the game industry.

Modifié par foil-, 14 décembre 2009 - 11:03 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

The budgets of AAA games aren't that different from the budgets of major motion pictures.

But what is different is the size of the task. Hollywood spends $200 million to produce 100 minutes of entertainment. BioWare spends $200 million to produce 100 hours of entertainment.

[foil-]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

The budgets of AAA games aren't that different from the budgets of major motion pictures.
But what is different is the size of the task. Hollywood spends $200 million to produce 100 minutes of entertainment. BioWare spends $200 million to produce 100 hours of entertainment.

I have a hard time beleiving that.  If major money was spent on Dragon Age, it was in advertising, and secondly in voice actors (because I beleive they are unionised).  Not that you may not be correct, just that I'm not convinced.  But movie production costs are more easily found than game production costs.  What was Titanic with its large scale boat they made there: 50 million to make iirc?  I think movies are a lot more these days though.  If sales rumours are correct, Dragon Age grossed 25 million in its first week of sales.  I would love to know what a game like DA costs to make and wether there was any profit in that first 25million.  But I would imagine the profits in comparison to movies are disgusting.  The lowest unioned worker on a movie set probably makes as much as a game programer.  Hopefully no programmers take offense to that, but you guys got to get a bigger peice of the pie.   Most of you have degrees for crying out loud.  An experienced game programmer should not be making less than an experienced engineer.  And even engineers aren't paid that highly for what they do.

[Camo Scout]

Well. This thread has certainly gone nowhere.



I think it's up to the modders at this point, unless Bioware miraculously decides to implement cloaks.



But even then, there is the question of how well they will manage.

[ChickenDownUnder]

Whoever thought cloaks would be so controversial....

[AsheraII]

I hope you're joking regarding programmer wages, since those are a joke to start with at the moment. Yes, you need some specialized knowledge and training, but so does a bookkeeper. I can't say I found programming considerably "harder" than bookkeeping, and I've done both. Yet my wages as a programmer were double the wages I had as bookkeeper. Definitely the most overrated job in existence at the moment. Partially because the schooling is made hard by being unfocussed and, dated, but here's still one who expects programmers wages will drop dramatically within 20 years.



Anyway, it's not our call to drop programmers' wages, nor is it our call to decide that an X amount of funds should be spent on "2 programmers to implement cloaks" instead of teambuilding, marketting, voice acting, you name whatever is needed to get the overall job (which is developing a game) and the end result sold.



There is no such thing as a "we demand cloaks", since there is most properly an equal or bigger amount of people who is not interested in cloaks or would prioritize the resources to be assigned to other things instead (bugfixing, horses, full nudity, more storyline, even higher quality graphics, a contest where the winner gets a one-night-stand with Claudia Black, you name it)

[DragonRageGT]

AsheraII wrote...

There is no such thing as a "we demand cloaks", since there is most properly an equal or bigger amount of people who is not interested in cloaks or would prioritize the resources to be assigned to other things instead (bugfixing, horses, full nudity, more storyline, even higher quality graphics, a contest where the winner gets a one-night-stand with Claudia Black, you name it)

Wow, I like you already! Where do I sign up for the contest???!!!!  Can Alleykatze join the party?

Modifié par RageGT, 15 décembre 2009 - 01:17 .

[Il Enforcer]

Seriously, why complain about people wanting cloaks in the game?



In a practical sense, they have as much usefulness as jewelry and other trinkets. But jewelry and trinkets are in DA, just as they are in any other RPG. It's an extra way of adding bonuses and customization to your character.

[DarthRomance]

I would rather have cloaks than Claudia Black but I now understand why there are no cloaks- David Gaider hates them.

[Gena Mafer]

'Cloaks and Robes' is an eight-year-old request by the fanbase.

Why BW finds cloth physics (or dynamic lighting or savegames that aren't 5+ MB each) such a technical challenge, I find puzzling.

So I've come to the conclusion that they need to fire everyone except the concept artists and the writers.

Seriously, I think it might do them a world of good.

Modifié par Gena Mafer, 15 décembre 2009 - 05:20 .

[LeStryfe79]

While not having cloaks could be considered reasonable. Mr. Gaider's initial response to this thread was not. In fact, his responses on this forum in general are reason enough for me to never buy any of his books. Oh well, I guess that's what we call CHOICES and CONSEQUENCES.