464 réponses à ce sujet

[foil-]

LeStryfe79 wrote...

I think the real issue with cloaks is a matter of hardware efficiency, not company resources. NWN2 has cloaks and that game runs quite poorly on most systems. I personaly would like to see cloaks as a neck slot item, or an alternative to amulets for certain characters. It's one of the few good design decisions to be found in 4th edition dnd as well. Note that I said "one of the few" , lol.

Its true what was written in the post above mine about the PS2.  There are ways to handle cloth that don't require cloth physics.

Neverwinter Nights 2 (NWN2) doesn't run slow because of cloaks since the cloaks are just an extension of the model.  They are additional bones.  Its an alright solution but not the nicest looking.  But it still looks better than Dragon Ages cloaks .  And it doesn't look bad either.  Its just not possible for them to react to the ground or flow more like real cloth like everquest2's dynamic cloth system seemed to be able to do.

The problem with NWN2 is that their graphics engine is extremely ambitious with point light sources, moving shadows cast by all objects including the "speed tree" trees which blew in the wind (whereas dragon age bakes the shadows in before you play the game so that they are static).  Water refractions and reflections (Dragon Age I think has these but not sure) and all sorts of other little graphics tweeks that were a little too ambitious for their time.  But they could have also optimised it a lot better also.  FarCry 2 has many of the same features as NWN2 with incredible lighting and shadows but runs marginally better than NWN2.  And of course looks better also since it is significantly newer.

Modifié par foil-, 16 décembre 2009 - 06:07 .

[Mordaedil]

Darpaek wrote...

Bleh.

I'm playing FFXII atm. All their outfits, even their hair, blow in the wind as they move or even standing still depending on the weather.

On the PS2. My chubby 10 year old PS2.

Don't give me this "hardware can't handle it" crap.

I hate to break it to you, but all Final Fantasies are pre-rendered. Nothing there is dynamic.

[AsheraII]

Darpaek wrote...

Bleh.

I'm playing FFXII atm. All their outfits, even their hair, blow in the wind as they move or even standing still depending on the weather.

On the PS2. My chubby 10 year old PS2.

Don't give me this "hardware can't handle it" crap.

Pre-rendered or real time calculated?
Does FFXII feature user created character posing?
How unique are the meshes for the different characters? Are they all unique, or all based on the exact same 1 or 2 basemodels, with maybe some minor resizing to make some toons appear larger or smaller?
What happens if your character bends over? Will the cloak drape around his buttocks beforehanging down, or will it sink through his chest or will it stand out straight like a piece of cardboard wrapped around his back?
What happens if your character kneels down? Will the cloak pile up where it touches the ground, or will it simply sink through the ground?
What happens when you walk backwards? Will the cloak cling around your legs with each step, or will your legs simply step through the cloak?
Remember, we're talking gametime here, not pre-rendered cutscenes. The cutscenes in DA:O are a special matter at that, since they are rendered real time, not pre-rendered and then turned into a little movie, so DA:O cutscenes can effectively be considered "gametime".

The "blowing in the wind" part of cloaks is the simple part of implementing them. Even a simple user-created world like Second Life features these so called "flexi prims", though not in a quality as good as that found in professionally created content.
However, the problem of cloaks (and hair for that matter) clipping through objects, people and the ground is universal in software land. That is where the pre-rendered cloaks come into play. However, pre-rendering is not really effective in a sandbox game (since the inclusion of the toolset effectively makes DA:O a sandbox game, which means everybody can create their own content, including character poses and models, if your really wish, you could make a character model look like a Dalek..), so cloaks would be limited in usefulness, and only cause for complaints to fix the unfixable.

Non-clipping cloth is what BioWare wants for the game, since that is consistent with the visual quality of the rest of the game. However, the technical quality of non-clipping clothes is exponentially higher and more demanding than making sure that a character doesn't sink into the ground to his knees or that two partitions of wall don't flicker (interlace) where they join.

[foil-]

There's always a solution. There has been shown in the past to be real time solutions. And if prerendered solutions fit the bill then there is no arguments against them. If the problem exists, someone will most likely find a solution to it if pressed.

I'm still curious why no one has commented on the dynamic cloth simulation that everquest was using 8 years ago. If there is a good reason that it could not be implemented using todays graphics cards I would love to hear it. All the problems in the above post were handled using this system it seams. Everquest never had any limitations to character movement if I recall all the dancing videos people made with those characters.

And even if everquests solution for some reason does not work, we know that NWN2's system does. Clipping is irrelevant since massive clipping already exists on the armour at the shoulders where it is most noticeable in closeup cutscenes. That excuse for cloaks doesn't hold water since they are not even as noticeable in close up cutscenes.

My suspicions are more along the lines that the shield and weapon on the back was someones baby and the cloaks interfered with it. They didn't want to just hide the shield by removing it from the animation or change the animation where he grabs his shield off the back. That is where clipping would be most noticeable. I always seemed to think also that cloaks were going to appear in the final release and the space between the shield and back was an attempt to accommodate them. But when they couldn't address the clipping with the shield, they removed the cloak but left the gap on the back.

What I find strange is that one request, the "sheathing and mounting" of weapons animation, which paled in comparison to the cloak requests, was implemented instead. And in the end they didn't implement the sheathing of the weapons which just generated a bunch of "huh?".

Then in the case of cloaks, the line that quality could not be achieved was used.

disclaimer: sounds like a lot of griping above, but don't take it out of proportion. Its just discussion. For all its faults, DAO is a landmark game. Every game has its faults and these threads are just a discussion of where different people see fault and how to obtain potential solutions or compromises.

Modifié par foil-, 16 décembre 2009 - 04:46 .

[SheffSteel]

Past games had features that current games do not have. Is this because game developers are getting lazier? Because publishers demand that games are produced faster than ever from smaller teams?

No.

It's because we keep moving on to newer platforms which support more content and more detailed resources. We reinvent the wheel every time, because the consumers are not happy with the old wheels.

[foil-]

SheffSteel wrote...

Past games had features that current games do not have. Is this because game developers are getting lazier? Because publishers demand that games are produced faster than ever from smaller teams?
No.
It's because we keep moving on to newer platforms which support more content and more detailed resources. We reinvent the wheel every time, because the consumers are not happy with the old wheels.

True,

The first person shooter developers seem to be able to better maintain their focus on improving an engine rather than reinventing the wheel every single game.  NWN2 is a classic case of that.  The engine looked good, but they could have probably done equally as well with just improving on the NWN graphics engine rather than stripping it out completely.  Maybe that had something to do with the code changing hands and the new programmers having trouble with the old code.

I'm not as familiar with the DAO engine, but I would hope they developed it from the NWN engine and didn't reinvent the wheel.

The witcher engine, even though I found the game too tedious to play, looked like the most efficient use of the old NWN engine.  Not sure why Obsidian decided against this route when the development of the Witcher game was well into production by the time NWN2 was contracted out.

[Burglekut]

Few87 wrote...

The bioware responses on these forums always seem a little abrupt and aggressive, the bioware staff on the mass effect forums seem a lot more freindly....

It's great when people say something stupid and get called on it.  Don't like it? Don't say stupid stuff.

[Darpaek]

So? SE did it simply for a ten year old machine. Bio says they can't do it for a modern machine because its too hard.



Simple or difficult, I don't give a crap how the sausage is made. All I know is, other people do it but whenever a Bio dev responds to a post explain why something wasn't implemented they always use the excuse, "It's too hard."



I think someone's missed the forest for the trees.

[addiction21]

Darpaek wrote...

So? SE did it simply for a ten year old machine. Bio says they can't do it for a modern machine because its too hard.

Simple or difficult, I don't give a crap how the sausage is made. All I know is, other people do it but whenever a Bio dev responds to a post explain why something wasn't implemented they always use the excuse, "It's too hard."

I think someone's missed the forest for the trees.

Yup it was you. Next level up may I suggest dumping all your points into reading comprehension.

[foil-]

Darpaek wrote...

So? SE did it simply for a ten year old machine. Bio says they can't do it for a modern machine because its too hard.

Simple or difficult, I don't give a crap how the sausage is made. All I know is, other people do it but whenever a Bio dev responds to a post explain why something wasn't implemented they always use the excuse, "It's too hard."

I think someone's missed the forest for the trees.

SE?

[Muse011]

addiction21 wrote...

Darpaek wrote...

So? SE did it simply for a ten year old machine. Bio says they can't do it for a modern machine because its too hard.

Simple or difficult, I don't give a crap how the sausage is made. All I know is, other people do it but whenever a Bio dev responds to a post explain why something wasn't implemented they always use the excuse, "It's too hard."

I think someone's missed the forest for the trees.

Yup it was you. Next level up may I suggest dumping all your points into reading comprehension.

I'm pretty sure that only the respec mod can save him at this point.

[foil-]

Huh? Where did those two come from?

Must have been wearing cloaks and decided to sneek in for the quick backstab.

Modifié par foil-, 16 décembre 2009 - 05:25 .

[Muse011]

>

[Darpaek]

Oh I dunno. I've been lurking Bio boards for ten years. If a couple leghumpers decide to use their interwebs to poke fun at me, it's all good. I'm tuff. I've had to deal with far better rags than them over the years. =D

Seriously, though, I understand how SE (Square Enix) makes their sausage and how Bio makes their sausage. FF12 has 6 pre-rendered outfits that wiggle in the wind depending on movement and weather - and it runs on my ten year old chubby. DA:O has 6 outfits - leather, studded leather, chain, scale, heavy chain, and plate - that aren't pre-rendered, clip poorly, and are non-wiggleable and non-cloakable.

I understand this sausage is different than that sausage. My point is, if it's harder to do it with the new sausage, why not use the old sausage?

We'll have to see what March 9th brings, but XIII looks pretty ****ing amazing and shiny (no one makes ugly trailers to sell their games). My laptop beats the crap outta a PS3, though.

Modifié par Darpaek, 16 décembre 2009 - 05:48 .

[addiction21]

Waffles > Sausage (just needed to get tha out the way)



Its not just that it was hard but for the effort they would have to devout to making super nifty capes that added little to the game for the effort that was involved.

If they decided to to use the "old Waffles" then this thread would be exchanged for a rant about why they did not use the "new Waffles"

I am waiting for more info no the "cooking class" for ff14.

[Darpaek]

Waffles don't work! You know they're eggs, milk, and bisquik (mixed deliciously)! The allure of the sausage is that, while you think it's pork, you're never quite sure... (why is this piece of pork more chewy than that...?)



You're right. Folks'll complain either way. I always get a giggle outta the NWN "wiggle", but at least the hair moves.



XIII gameplay vids look a whole lot like old sausage re-rendered to be pretty. And they are most certainly pretty. We'll see, though.

[addiction21]

I would also like to point out that being a chicken I lack the proper dexterity and flexibility to hump legs.

[Darpaek]

addiction21 wrote...

I would also like to point out that being a chicken I lack the proper dexterity and flexibility to hump legs.

QFT!

[MorseDenizen]

@David Gaider I seem to remember the 1.68 patch for NWN adding cloaks so perhaps its possible we can maybe hope for them in a later patch? I have no idea what costs are like for games but as an electronic music producer I know all too well how time consuming and often frustrating it can be to add cool features, so I'll just leave my hopes in that at some point they may make an appearance. Hopefully after you guys have patched some of the more critical problem with the game that are more pressing

[Felix_Domestica]

perhaps its possible we can maybe hope for them in a later patch

EA took over. There shall be no such thing as a free waffles. Even if they are the old waffles.



I can't believe that we have an 18 pages long thread about cloaks. The horor is that is still growing!

[Vicious]

Cloaks in a future patch? NO WAI no matter how cool it would be. This is EA it would HAVE to be a DLC! And don't count on it. Hope for it in DAO2 but don't expect it roflol.

After all, even BG2 didn't have cloaks, and the reason was the same: We'd like to but it's a lot of work.

Modifié par Vicious, 17 décembre 2009 - 03:24 .

[LeStryfe79]

FF12 runs smoothly because there are far fewer animations, and many of the textures are less ambitious. Don't anyone try to tell me that cloaks don't eat up hardware, because they do and them's facts. Also, I don't recall seeing too many cloaks in FF12, but I do recall getting poor performance in NWN2, even when shadows were kept at a minimum. Ambitious lighting was a problem in NWN2, but only one of many(pun intended). Poor efficiency in NWN2 could basically be considered the cause of no longer having multiplayer in a game like DA. That game was EXTREMELY inefficient and ruined the modding community, thus making a similar game a much harder sale. It seems to me that Bioware had to make some tuff decisions, while David Gaider made some tasteless comments about them. At least that is my perspective...

Modifié par LeStryfe79, 17 décembre 2009 - 03:31 .

[Felix_Domestica]

I can't believe this thread finally died...



P.S. xD

[Darpaek]

****ty camera and a toolset that crashed every 2 hours killed NWN2, not lightmaps! LOL

[Felix_Domestica]

I love NWN2 anyway.