464 réponses à ce sujet

[heretica]

Lucy_Glitter wrote...

I would have to disagree Mr. Legendary Thread man. This thread is not win, it is pointless, yet funny. People only continue to whine about not having something because other people respond to it. Like me.

I agree with you, but i'm a miss!

It was either  "legendary thread.jpg" or "i-r-serious-cat-this-is-serious-thread.jpg" 

[DragonRageGT]

camirish1 wrote...



Enough Said

Again, No way! ... Who cares about Incrediwhat when we have him!

[DragonAgeNeedsCapesOrCloaks]

Deception_2112 wrote...

You know its funny that even if cloak got added the OP will probably open up another thread complaining about how the cloaks cause clipping and whine about them not being animated..

I'd rather see a bigger variety of armor than have developers spend time on cloaks..

Actually i wouldn't because there already is clipping problems in the game that i could realy care less about im not really picky.  Its just that honestly this is the first time i have bought a game like this (i usually play a friends copy) and since i am a fan of western fantasy stories i often see cloaks in movies and gameplay videos of similar genres and i just thought it was really weird that there weren't any in a game like this from a company that is so very capable.  I mean come on they were in KOTOR.

[PendragonV]

Make a poll whether they're should be cloaks or not. I think cloaks should've been in the game. And an animation to pull over yourself to vanish would have rocked

[DragonAgeNeedsCapesOrCloaks]

David Gaider wrote...

DragonAgeNeedsCapesOrCloaks wrote...
Im confused.  I thought forums were where developers said to go and talk about the game and air all your suggestions and or grievances.

Certainly. Saying that you'd like cloaks is one thing. Implying that the reason they're not there is because we don't know enough people want them is quite something else.

I did not know that it was necessary nor appropriate for a staff member to basically allude to their disapproval of my post even if i am not breaking any of the forum rules.  I learn something new everyday.

When did anyone say that you broke a forum rule? I don't only disapprove of people's posts when they break the rules, you know. Some people seem to believe otherwise, but simply having an opinion doesn't mean you can't be wrong.

But having said that thanks for at least acknowledging the post and letting us know that the developers are still at least thinking about it.  And by the way its actually a good thing that the only thing that i thought was worth complainging about was something as trivial as cloaks.  That should resound as a testament of this being a very good game.

I'm glad you enjoyed the game. And we'll always consider any reasonable and polite request, even if they've come up many times before. As I said before, we're well aware of the bells & whistles that players would like to have -- sadly, bells & whistles are usually in short supply when you're making the kind of game that requires so much content simply to meet basic requirements for the genre.

ashes2flame wrote...
That should have been your first post. I've read several others from you and you really are rude. I don't expect you to kiss your customers ass but you could at least be courteous and if you can't then you shouldn't post here at all. You did great work with the game. I appreciate it. But you are extremely defensive, condescending and seem to get off on opportunities to belittle people. You're not helping yourself, your company or the overall maturaity level (read: enjoyment / relevance) on these forums with your childish behavior.

I'll always respond to courteous and reasonable posts in kind. Beyond that, I'll leave it to my company to decide how well I represent them. Thanks for the feedback, anyhow.

Hey man i was annoyed when i posted my thread and apparrently so were you when you responded.  I think it would be appropriate to offer up an apology if i offended you in any way.  Let's move forward amicably...And get to work on those damn cloaks! (just joking lol)

[Somehing]

Can someone redirect me to the site these apply for?:
"Rules of Conduct
READ THIS ALL VERY CAREFULLY AS IT DIRECTLY AFFECTS YOUR ACCESS TO THIS SITE.
While these sites are the property of BioWare/Electronic Arts they are here for you, the community. In order to keep this a fun place for all, there are certain rules that must to be followed. The rules apply to all methods of communication between community members i.e. forums, private messages, e-mail, blogging, etc.
No slander. Insults, language, belittling of others or anything else deemed offense will be deleted without warning if considered unacceptable by an official Moderator or member of BioWare/Electronic Arts staff.
No fighting, name calling, taunting or flame wars. There is no place for fighting and flaming others on these message boards. Disagreeing with other Community members is acceptable and understood, but actively fighting and/or flaming will not be tolerated. Topics that are designed to start a flame war (defined as abrasive and/or offensive argument that serves no purpose but to make people mad) or posts made that are discourteous and/or hostile to other Community members or the discussion at hand will be treated as Spam and deleted without warning. If someone acts in a hostile manner to you or to others, DO NOT engage a person or persons who is fighting. Contact staff or a volunteer moderator and let them handle the issue. What is considered fighting or flaming is up to the discretion of staff and volunteer moderators...(etc)"
Because it certainly isn't this one.
Unless of course Bioware employees have the royalty and power of being above the same rules the rest of us have to follow.
In which case I think it would help to clearly include this somewhere in the ToS or RoC, as then we know from the start we are liable to be bullied for no reason.
I read several people mentioning a "David Gaider", with reverence, and I wondered why. If this is the reason I'm..appalled. Not only at an official member of Bioware supposedly fit for contact with customers acting as disgraceful as his initial response was, but at most users only encouraging it (though I suppose that part shouldn't surprise me).
I've already read the whole thread, so I've seen all the posts supporting his behaviour. Let me address a few:
[quote]Mordaedil wrote...
I think it's more that people have no sense of humor anymore and expect deadpan responses from developers instead of having developers who are willing to joke with their players.[/quote]
And these are inaccurate because not all people have the same sense of humour, not all people are addicted to non-stop sarcasm and think that's the only way everyone should communicate and not all people enjoyed this "joke" (namely the OP who had legit concerns completely ignored and was ridiculed instead). A joke isn't fair when someone has to be the butt of it just so everyone else can get their kicks. If the OP had shown ANY sign of being open to witty put-downs or being rude enough to deserve one, I might understand. The worst words used were "ridiculous" and "stupid", and if what was said about cloaks being advertised as in game (just to make it look and sell better despite not being assured?) was true, these were massive understatements.
People are getting away with tens more than this cursing and insulting and flaming to hell all over this forum, and yet somehow someone civilly voicing their opinion (AS THEY ARE ENCOURAGED TO) deserves backlash? As Few87 said, it was uncalled for.
[quote]Murphys_Law wrote...
"Friendly" responses tend to be PR-approved canned messages that contain little information and are almost universally boring.  American consumers need to get off their high horse a little bit and stop expecting to be treated as gods just because they fork over a couple of bucks.  Frankly, I don't find David's sarcastic comment mean in any way.  Especially, when the thread is started with a all caps title and a username clearly created for attention.  Not to mention, having a low understanding of how much work it takes to make cloaks look good (hello clipping) and not presenting a lot of good arguments on why cloaks are needed.  The funny thing is I agree with him/her completely and yet I didn't see David's post as unfriendly because it shows more of the "other side" and was also slightly amusing (I am a sucker for sarcasm).  Please do not ever encourage/petition the developers of any game to be more "friendly", the last thing I want is more c/p bull**** develper responses.
'[/quote]
This response was not "PR-approved", "canned" and yet STILL contained no (not even "little", no) information. And the only reason it wasn't boring (for you) was because it was funny (for you) at the expense of being shunning to someone else, that was putting forth a suggestion (as we're told these forums are for). It could've been me, it could've been you, it could've been anyone. Does wanting attention on an issue you feel enthusiastic about deserve condescending patronising sarcasm? Does "having a low understanding" automatically mean one deserves to be ignored and ridiculed? Some people don't know some things. You. Me. OP. Gaider. Does that mean we should belittle each other - or give a simple explanatory sentence to each other (as he managed to do afterwards)? Yes it may be generic and boring to read because it's done so often but there's a reason for that, you see.
It's only because of consumers this guy even HAS a job, he should treat them nicely (especially when they haven't actually done anything wrong). I'm English too, maybe this is normal there (in which case perhaps there should be a separate section for the UK (just a suggestion, don't electrocute me)). Here we expect to be treated with respect from someone we've just paid for a service, actual support from "customer support", tiny, almost irrelevant things like that. I'm all for showing "the other side" but this was not appropriate.
[quote]Murphys_Law wrote...
I wasn't talking specifically to you.  I made it pretty clear that was a general statement on American consumers and the problems with telling the developers or a company to be more "polite".  This is especially true when someone views sarcasm as a "put down".  People are not robots, we don't all communcate in the same way.  We should always support when developers "let their hair down" as it were, unless there is outright name calling and personal attacks.  That is one thing I have apperciated about this forum and the old one is that the developers seem to give straight honest answers that do not always go through the corporate PR filter.  That is rare in this day in age, we seem to have lost the ability to just have straight communication between the costumers and the people who make/provide the product/service we pay for.  Be careful what you wish for when you ask developers to be more "polite"
[/quote]
Sarcasm is not always a put down, but in this case it was. Be as sarcastic as you like, no need to be offensive. You're right we don't all communicate in the same way...thus why constant sarcasm may be inadvisable as opposed to talking normally which is universally understood. Developers letting their hair down sounds nice; as long as it doesn't require a breach in their own ToS or RoC. A straight honest answer is a straight honest answer. However re-read Mr. Gaiden's first response and you'll see no correlation to what you just said, as it was entirely sarcastic ridicule. As ashes2flame wrote, he should've skipped the first and done what he was meant to.
[quote]LunSei Sleidee wrote...
Meh, the developers are simply behaving in accordance with the users. The community here is definitely NOT the friendliest and most polite gaming community I ever read in a forum. If the developers were to be polite and friendly, they'd just be very out of place here, considering how most users behave.
[/quote]
Yes I wonder why that is, because the community clearly have such good role models. But really, you have to treat individuals on an individual basis. I know many/most users deserve that attitude, but tarring everyone with the same brush before they've even done anything just makes nice ones want to leave, if they're going to get that kind of treatment. It was thoroughly inappropriate here.
[quote]Adria Teksuni wrote...
*shrug* He responded in the same vein as the OP. If there had been a reasonable, non-provocative question, the answer would likely have been similar.[/quote]
Adria, I don't like the idea of insulting your intelligence so I'll just ask you knowing already what most ridiculous rage, rant and flaming posts are like (and that they usually get addressed politely no matter how abusive) to reassess what you saw as so unreasonable and provocative it deserved to be have all it's points, opinions and questions completely disregarded AND ridiculed with no reason:
[quote]DragonAgeNeedsCapesOrCloaks wrote...
How ridiculous is it that this is a fantasy RPG with weapons and armor and magic and all that good stuff and there are no cloaks or capes in the game.  It kinda makes your mages look a little undressed to me...Everyone else is wearing armor while the walk around looking un-cool in their mage rhobes which really just look lke regular clothes except for the ones with the fur on it that just look plain stupid.  And whats even more annoying is that in an attempt to try and get us in the whole fantasy rpg mood and really want to buy the game they have a commercial for the game where everybody is wearing cloaks.  Thats just plain old fashion false advertisment...Please tell me they are going to include this in an update.  How is it that they are making a star wars game where everyone is going to be wearing cloaks (yeah i know different teams working on the games but still come one) and it didnt cross their minds to include it in this game?  There really isn't an abundance of any equipment at all in this game now that i think about it.  Updates are needed with the new dlc.
[/quote]
[quote]DragonAgeNeedsCapesOrCloaks wrote...
i posted this in an attempt to get responses and maybe support from those who may agree with me so hopefully in a perfect world bioware will get the idea and put them in the game.[/quote]`
Is this not relatively mild, if 'offensive' enough to deserve 'retaliation' at all? I actually thought the same thing, that if half the players wanted cloaks they would've worked to put them in - and that if you can convince them enough people care, they might do something about it. I didn't realise this wasn't the case, nor that just thinking such things is a crime and requires punishment. Mine and the OP's thoughts are only unreasonable because we didn't/don't understand the difficulty and work required. Just like a kid asking for an aeroplane for their birthday. This isn't knowingly unreasonable/offensive. This is naivety/being uninformed. So Gaider could try explaining it instead of ... not. A few simple sentences as were managed afterwards would've been all it took (the first time).
[quote]LaztRezort wrote...
I agree.  Toughen up your skin a little if you're going to post on the internet, and consider Gaider's post as "tough love."
Personally, I find it refreshing to have developers come here and make down-to-earth posts, not that polite cookie-cutter PR crap that you get everywhere else.[/quote]
Having what you've said ignored and ridiculed on someone else's whim is tough, not love. Toughening skin towards random internet users? That's okay. Having to for contact with Bioware officials? That's not. His initial response was not down to earth, a down to earth approach would be realising some people don't entirely understand/know everything you do (of which he must get cases of all the time, which makes me wonder why his response), it was the complete opposite of "down-to-earth"..how do some of you think you make sense...

[quote]David Gaider wrote...
Sure, but the premise behind the thread (apparently) was "we want cloaks, and maybe if we say so the developers will realize it and add them." To which my response is "duh". We already know that players like cloaks. They want MOAR -- cloaks, scabbards, bowstrings, spears, longer hair, pretty dresses, halberds, horses, bigger boobs, smaller boobs, whiter teeth and a slider in everyone's stocking at Christmas... I mean, do you really think the reason we don't add most of these things is simply because we don't know that people want them?
I love cloaks. I think cloaks are awesome. I hope we get to add them at some point.[/quote]
I/we thought if you were to see the amount of cloak wanters that would push them, before the scabbards, bowstrings, spears etc. it may be one of the things people want first...in which case if you can add it it would've been helpful (I'm sure I saw something somewhere around this site encouraging sharing your ideas in new topics, you may want to find and destroy that troublesome text, for the ideas it's putting into peoples' minds). So in a sense yes, maybe you don't know how much people want them. From your "duh" response you will easily call me stupid for not knowing that but I don't see how anyone was supposed to know to actually NOT give ideas because you know everything, or how long and difficult it is to do certain things and so why you can't..in which case yes you do need to explain, not childishly patronise.
[quote]There were no put downs. If I wanted to be mean I would have said that anyone who honestly believes that we developers don't know that RPG fans like the idea of cloaks, and that this is the reason we didn't have them in DAO, is being foolishly naive. I would also have said that anyone who takes offense on someone else's behalf regarding a snarky response to be a hyper-sensitive wackadoodle.
But I would never say such things. Because I am not mean. [/quote]
At the very least that would've been more informative than your chosen primary response which was a put down in itself (as if you didn't know).
[quote]David Gaider wrote...
[quote]DragonAgeNeedsCapesOrCloaks wrote...
Im confused.  I thought forums were where developers said to go and talk about the game and air all your suggestions and or grievances.[/quote]
Certainly. Saying that you'd like cloaks is one thing. Implying that the reason they're not there is because we don't know enough people want them is quite something else.[/quote]
I share their confusion and still can't see how they were supposed to know any different.
[quote][quote]I did not know that it was necessary nor appropriate for a staff member to basically allude to their disapproval of my post even if i am not breaking any of the forum rules.  I learn something new everyday.[/quote]
When did anyone say that you broke a forum rule? I don't only disapprove of people's posts when they break the rules, you know. Some people seem to believe otherwise, but simply having an opinion doesn't mean you can't be wrong.[/quote]
Personal disapproval is one thing, how you deal with it (as a Bioware member no less) is another.
[quote][quote]But having said that thanks for at least acknowledging the post and letting us know that the developers are still at least thinking about it.  And by the way its actually a good thing that the only thing that i thought was worth complainging about was something as trivial as cloaks.  That should resound as a testament of this being a very good game.[/quote]
I'm glad you enjoyed the game. And we'll always consider any reasonable and polite request, even if they've come up many times before. As I said before, we're well aware of the bells & whistles that players would like to have -- sadly, bells & whistles are usually in short supply when you're making the kind of game that requires so much content simply to meet basic requirements for the genre.[/quote]
The OP is acting remarkably mature about this, though I'm having trouble not asking questions about your personal life - so at the risk of sounding patronising - have you read most of this forum?? It's full of as I've mentioned, stuff that's much worse, and still being dealt with civilly. Was the original post not polite in comparison? If it wasn't reasonable, couldn't it be possible they weren't aware? In addition the OP felt deceived from seeing cloaks advertised, then not getting any. It's hard to find a topic more justified. Your initial response to this was not fair.
[quote][quote]ashes2flame wrote...
That should have been your first post. I've read several others from you and you really are rude. I don't expect you to kiss your customers ass but you could at least be courteous and if you can't then you shouldn't post here at all. You did great work with the game. I appreciate it. But you are extremely defensive, condescending and seem to get off on opportunities to belittle people. You're not helping yourself, your company or the overall maturaity level (read: enjoyment / relevance) on these forums with your childish behavior.[/quote]
I'll always respond to courteous and reasonable posts in kind. Beyond that, I'll leave it to my company to decide how well I represent them. Thanks for the feedback, anyhow.[/quote]
I don't know about your other posts, but from what I've seen I agree as much as I can from one thread..how you expect to cultivate a helpful kind community by only perpetuating the petty bullying is beyond me.
What's different is, he's in a position of status, responsibility and is (we're told) supposed to be trying to help. If he wasn't a Bioware employee it would just be another case of bullying, but it's not, now it's bullying that you can't do anything about. It's for some reason completely legit and acceptable if you're a mod?
On top of that I would think they would lead by example, I'm worried about the encouraging influence this is on other users, the more impressionable that are easily being shown sadistic "humour" is okay.
"The Social site, the forums and all BioWare websites are a central place for discussion on BioWare and our games, both past and present. They are very important to BioWare staff as a direct conduit to our fans. Please respect these sites, staff, volunteer moderators and all community members."

Lastly, my actual opinion on the topic: Just before this I was reading a thread on the distinct lack of high end rogue armour, yet the endless supply of heavy armour. I see an opening here. This would make cloaks not obligatory for all characters but still useable in the armour slot, especially for rogues themselves.
I don't really remember much about cloaks but I think they were concealing in ways, for face, sometimes as camouflage to blend in from afar and as any cloth can entangle or possibly distract I'm sure there could be applicable bonuses/penalties under certain conditions (like the pinning shot penalty). I also thought, though, that as a cloak IS more concealing on the body in general it'd make you essentially harder to hit (actually be damaged), as an opponent can't tell what position or where exactly your body is in all the drapiness, and they'd of course need to quickly disentangle their weapon to have at you again if they missed. The armour bonus could be made nearer to heavy armours for that fact.
Wikipedia: "Because they keep a person hidden, the phrase cloak and dagger has come to refer to espionage"
I don't think I'll hang around here much after this, disenchanted as a whole with everything surrounding this game (still not got my problems with it addressed by either source, coincidence!). I know I wasn't around long enough to be missed, and I definitely won't be after this post so I'm not exactly losing anything.
Note: This wasn't meant as some sort of Gaider bashfest and I'm well aware I'm going to be made fun of for this, but I don't want to be a part of a forum where derogatory treatment is accepted, encouraged and glorified.

[DragonRageGT]

DragonAgeNeedsCapesOrCloaks wrote...
How ridiculous is it that this is a fantasy RPG with weapons and armor and magic and all that good stuff and there are no cloaks or capes in the game.

@ Somehing

You forgot mine:

RageGT said: "And I love when devs become just regular persons with humor and all, instead of untouchable superhumans rockstars!"

Now, you say to my face my music is "ridiculous" and I'll punch you in the face! No matter how bad it is, really. You don't like it and want to criticise it, do it constructively!

And you say you're brit? Well, in Henley-on-Thames, couple of decades ago, best friends used to punch each other in the face for fun, while waiting for their take-away order in some burger joint. Brit thing I guess... not everybody I know would consider a guy as a friend if the guy punched him in the face!

Perhaps the BW guy didn't like to have his work labeled as ridiculous when in fact the ridiculous is that someone would request capes for the game from a dev team starting with that stupid line!

It is not ridiculous at all that the game has no cloak, although I would love to have them too and as the dev said, they are fully aware of that! There are awesome games out there that don't have capes... Risen, The Witcher, Gothic's, Baldur's Gate, NWN for a loooong time.

If you really need a cape for a game not to be "ridiculous"... go play Batman!!!!

If you really think you can insult someone's work and just be patronized for it, you're taking for granted your right to not be punched in the face! And OP just got "slapped with a soft gloves" as we say here, if that makes any sense in english.

Now, "England national football team is ridiculous because it can never beat Brazil!" How does that make you feel? Please don't punch me in the face... I was only joking! I like premier league, although the rest of my statement is true! =)

Modifié par RageGT, 13 décembre 2009 - 02:45 .

[Stronghand]

Somehing wrote...

I don't know about your other posts, but from what I've seen I agree as much as I can from one thread..how you expect to cultivate a helpful kind community by only perpetuating the petty bullying is beyond me.
What's different is, he's in a position of status, responsibility and is (we're told) supposed to be trying to help. If he wasn't a Bioware employee it would just be another case of bullying, but it's not, now it's bullying that you can't do anything about. It's for some reason completely legit and acceptable if you're a mod?
On top of that I would think they would lead by example, I'm worried about the encouraging influence this is on other users, the more impressionable that are easily being shown sadistic "humour" is okay.
"The Social site, the forums and all BioWare websites are a central place for discussion on BioWare and our games, both past and present. They are very important to BioWare staff as a direct conduit to our fans. Please respect these sites, staff, volunteer moderators and all community members."

As someone who has been visiting Biowares forums for many, many years, I for one respect Bioware employees for the fact that they actually reply like real people instead of using corporate lingo (or just ignoring the forums entierly). Many of them visit these forums on their free time you know? It's not like they have a responsibility to do so.
Sometimes they can be a bit overly defensive, but I don't agree this was one of those times. And what can you expect, they are humans too. I'd much rather have that than nothing at all. That Bioware are one of the few companies (there are more, but they are few and far between) that interact so much with the community like this is one of the reasons I like them, that gives bonus points in my book.

So to Mr. Gaider and the rest of the Bioware staff: Keep it up (and keep putting out more good games).

(Now, I don't claim that Origins is a prefect game, there are many things that could be improved, but that's not the point of this post)

Modifié par Stronghand, 13 décembre 2009 - 02:51 .

[MR-9]

[quote]Somehing wrote...

Can someone redirect me to the site these apply for?:
"Rules of Conduct
READ THIS ALL VERY CAREFULLY AS IT DIRECTLY AFFECTS YOUR ACCESS TO THIS SITE.
While these sites are the property of BioWare/Electronic Arts they are here for you, the community. In order to keep this a fun place for all, there are certain rules that must to be followed. The rules apply to all methods of communication between community members i.e. forums, private messages, e-mail, blogging, etc.
No slander. Insults, language, belittling of others or anything else deemed offense will be deleted without warning if considered unacceptable by an official Moderator or member of BioWare/Electronic Arts staff.
No fighting, name calling, taunting or flame wars. There is no place for fighting and flaming others on these message boards. Disagreeing with other Community members is acceptable and understood, but actively fighting and/or flaming will not be tolerated. Topics that are designed to start a flame war (defined as abrasive and/or offensive argument that serves no purpose but to make people mad) or posts made that are discourteous and/or hostile to other Community members or the discussion at hand will be treated as Spam and deleted without warning. If someone acts in a hostile manner to you or to others, DO NOT engage a person or persons who is fighting. Contact staff or a volunteer moderator and let them handle the issue. What is considered fighting or flaming is up to the discretion of staff and volunteer moderators...(etc)"
Because it certainly isn't this one.
Unless of course Bioware employees have the royalty and power of being above the same rules the rest of us have to follow.
In which case I think it would help to clearly include this somewhere in the ToS or RoC, as then we know from the start we are liable to be bullied for no reason.
I read several people mentioning a "David Gaider", with reverence, and I wondered why. If this is the reason I'm..appalled. Not only at an official member of Bioware supposedly fit for contact with customers acting as disgraceful as his initial response was, but at most users only encouraging it (though I suppose that part shouldn't surprise me).
I've already read the whole thread, so I've seen all the posts supporting his behaviour. Let me address a few:
[quote]Mordaedil wrote...
I think it's more that people have no sense of humor anymore and expect deadpan responses from developers instead of having developers who are willing to joke with their players.[/quote]
And these are inaccurate because not all people have the same sense of humour, not all people are addicted to non-stop sarcasm and think that's the only way everyone should communicate and not all people enjoyed this "joke" (namely the OP who had legit concerns completely ignored and was ridiculed instead). A joke isn't fair when someone has to be the butt of it just so everyone else can get their kicks. If the OP had shown ANY sign of being open to witty put-downs or being rude enough to deserve one, I might understand. The worst words used were "ridiculous" and "stupid", and if what was said about cloaks being advertised as in game (just to make it look and sell better despite not being assured?) was true, these were massive understatements.
People are getting away with tens more than this cursing and insulting and flaming to hell all over this forum, and yet somehow someone civilly voicing their opinion (AS THEY ARE ENCOURAGED TO) deserves backlash? As Few87 said, it was uncalled for.
[quote]Murphys_Law wrote...
"Friendly" responses tend to be PR-approved canned messages that contain little information and are almost universally boring.  American consumers need to get off their high horse a little bit and stop expecting to be treated as gods just because they fork over a couple of bucks.  Frankly, I don't find David's sarcastic comment mean in any way.  Especially, when the thread is started with a all caps title and a username clearly created for attention.  Not to mention, having a low understanding of how much work it takes to make cloaks look good (hello clipping) and not presenting a lot of good arguments on why cloaks are needed.  The funny thing is I agree with him/her completely and yet I didn't see David's post as unfriendly because it shows more of the "other side" and was also slightly amusing (I am a sucker for sarcasm).  Please do not ever encourage/petition the developers of any game to be more "friendly", the last thing I want is more c/p bull**** develper responses.
'[/quote]
This response was not "PR-approved", "canned" and yet STILL contained no (not even "little", no) information. And the only reason it wasn't boring (for you) was because it was funny (for you) at the expense of being shunning to someone else, that was putting forth a suggestion (as we're told these forums are for). It could've been me, it could've been you, it could've been anyone. Does wanting attention on an issue you feel enthusiastic about deserve condescending patronising sarcasm? Does "having a low understanding" automatically mean one deserves to be ignored and ridiculed? Some people don't know some things. You. Me. OP. Gaider. Does that mean we should belittle each other - or give a simple explanatory sentence to each other (as he managed to do afterwards)? Yes it may be generic and boring to read because it's done so often but there's a reason for that, you see.
It's only because of consumers this guy even HAS a job, he should treat them nicely (especially when they haven't actually done anything wrong). I'm English too, maybe this is normal there (in which case perhaps there should be a separate section for the UK (just a suggestion, don't electrocute me)). Here we expect to be treated with respect from someone we've just paid for a service, actual support from "customer support", tiny, almost irrelevant things like that. I'm all for showing "the other side" but this was not appropriate.
[quote]Murphys_Law wrote...
I wasn't talking specifically to you.  I made it pretty clear that was a general statement on American consumers and the problems with telling the developers or a company to be more "polite".  This is especially true when someone views sarcasm as a "put down".  People are not robots, we don't all communcate in the same way.  We should always support when developers "let their hair down" as it were, unless there is outright name calling and personal attacks.  That is one thing I have apperciated about this forum and the old one is that the developers seem to give straight honest answers that do not always go through the corporate PR filter.  That is rare in this day in age, we seem to have lost the ability to just have straight communication between the costumers and the people who make/provide the product/service we pay for.  Be careful what you wish for when you ask developers to be more "polite"
[/quote]
Sarcasm is not always a put down, but in this case it was. Be as sarcastic as you like, no need to be offensive. You're right we don't all communicate in the same way...thus why constant sarcasm may be inadvisable as opposed to talking normally which is universally understood. Developers letting their hair down sounds nice; as long as it doesn't require a breach in their own ToS or RoC. A straight honest answer is a straight honest answer. However re-read Mr. Gaiden's first response and you'll see no correlation to what you just said, as it was entirely sarcastic ridicule. As ashes2flame wrote, he should've skipped the first and done what he was meant to.
[quote]LunSei Sleidee wrote...
Meh, the developers are simply behaving in accordance with the users. The community here is definitely NOT the friendliest and most polite gaming community I ever read in a forum. If the developers were to be polite and friendly, they'd just be very out of place here, considering how most users behave.
[/quote]
Yes I wonder why that is, because the community clearly have such good role models. But really, you have to treat individuals on an individual basis. I know many/most users deserve that attitude, but tarring everyone with the same brush before they've even done anything just makes nice ones want to leave, if they're going to get that kind of treatment. It was thoroughly inappropriate here.
[quote]Adria Teksuni wrote...
*shrug* He responded in the same vein as the OP. If there had been a reasonable, non-provocative question, the answer would likely have been similar.[/quote]
Adria, I don't like the idea of insulting your intelligence so I'll just ask you knowing already what most ridiculous rage, rant and flaming posts are like (and that they usually get addressed politely no matter how abusive) to reassess what you saw as so unreasonable and provocative it deserved to be have all it's points, opinions and questions completely disregarded AND ridiculed with no reason:
[quote]DragonAgeNeedsCapesOrCloaks wrote...
How ridiculous is it that this is a fantasy RPG with weapons and armor and magic and all that good stuff and there are no cloaks or capes in the game.  It kinda makes your mages look a little undressed to me...Everyone else is wearing armor while the walk around looking un-cool in their mage rhobes which really just look lke regular clothes except for the ones with the fur on it that just look plain stupid.  And whats even more annoying is that in an attempt to try and get us in the whole fantasy rpg mood and really want to buy the game they have a commercial for the game where everybody is wearing cloaks.  Thats just plain old fashion false advertisment...Please tell me they are going to include this in an update.  How is it that they are making a star wars game where everyone is going to be wearing cloaks (yeah i know different teams working on the games but still come one) and it didnt cross their minds to include it in this game?  There really isn't an abundance of any equipment at all in this game now that i think about it.  Updates are needed with the new dlc.
[/quote]
[quote]DragonAgeNeedsCapesOrCloaks wrote...
i posted this in an attempt to get responses and maybe support from those who may agree with me so hopefully in a perfect world bioware will get the idea and put them in the game.[/quote]`
Is this not relatively mild, if 'offensive' enough to deserve 'retaliation' at all? I actually thought the same thing, that if half the players wanted cloaks they would've worked to put them in - and that if you can convince them enough people care, they might do something about it. I didn't realise this wasn't the case, nor that just thinking such things is a crime and requires punishment. Mine and the OP's thoughts are only unreasonable because we didn't/don't understand the difficulty and work required. Just like a kid asking for an aeroplane for their birthday. This isn't knowingly unreasonable/offensive. This is naivety/being uninformed. So Gaider could try explaining it instead of ... not. A few simple sentences as were managed afterwards would've been all it took (the first time).
[quote]LaztRezort wrote...
I agree.  Toughen up your skin a little if you're going to post on the internet, and consider Gaider's post as "tough love."
Personally, I find it refreshing to have developers come here and make down-to-earth posts, not that polite cookie-cutter PR crap that you get everywhere else.[/quote]
Having what you've said ignored and ridiculed on someone else's whim is tough, not love. Toughening skin towards random internet users? That's okay. Having to for contact with Bioware officials? That's not. His initial response was not down to earth, a down to earth approach would be realising some people don't entirely understand/know everything you do (of which he must get cases of all the time, which makes me wonder why his response), it was the complete opposite of "down-to-earth"..how do some of you think you make sense...

[quote]David Gaider wrote...
Sure, but the premise behind the thread (apparently) was "we want cloaks, and maybe if we say so the developers will realize it and add them." To which my response is "duh". We already know that players like cloaks. They want MOAR -- cloaks, scabbards, bowstrings, spears, longer hair, pretty dresses, halberds, horses, bigger boobs, smaller boobs, whiter teeth and a slider in everyone's stocking at Christmas... I mean, do you really think the reason we don't add most of these things is simply because we don't know that people want them?
I love cloaks. I think cloaks are awesome. I hope we get to add them at some point.[/quote]
I/we thought if you were to see the amount of cloak wanters that would push them, before the scabbards, bowstrings, spears etc. it may be one of the things people want first...in which case if you can add it it would've been helpful (I'm sure I saw something somewhere around this site encouraging sharing your ideas in new topics, you may want to find and destroy that troublesome text, for the ideas it's putting into peoples' minds). So in a sense yes, maybe you don't know how much people want them. From your "duh" response you will easily call me stupid for not knowing that but I don't see how anyone was supposed to know to actually NOT give ideas because you know everything, or how long and difficult it is to do certain things and so why you can't..in which case yes you do need to explain, not childishly patronise.
[quote]There were no put downs. If I wanted to be mean I would have said that anyone who honestly believes that we developers don't know that RPG fans like the idea of cloaks, and that this is the reason we didn't have them in DAO, is being foolishly naive. I would also have said that anyone who takes offense on someone else's behalf regarding a snarky response to be a hyper-sensitive wackadoodle.
But I would never say such things. Because I am not mean. [/quote]
At the very least that would've been more informative than your chosen primary response which was a put down in itself (as if you didn't know).
[quote]David Gaider wrote...
[quote]DragonAgeNeedsCapesOrCloaks wrote...
Im confused.  I thought forums were where developers said to go and talk about the game and air all your suggestions and or grievances.[/quote]
Certainly. Saying that you'd like cloaks is one thing. Implying that the reason they're not there is because we don't know enough people want them is quite something else.[/quote]
I share their confusion and still can't see how they were supposed to know any different.


[quote][quote]I did not know that it was necessary nor appropriate for a staff member to basically allude to their disapproval of my post even if i am not breaking any of the forum rules.  I learn something new everyday.[/quote]
When did anyone say that you broke a forum rule? I don't only disapprove of people's posts when they break the rules, you know. Some people seem to believe otherwise, but simply having an opinion doesn't mean you can't be wrong.[/quote]
Personal disapproval is one thing, how you deal with it (as a Bioware member no less) is another.


[quote][quote]But having said that thanks for at least acknowledging the post and letting us know that the developers are still at least thinking about it.  And by the way its actually a good thing that the only thing that i thought was worth complainging about was something as trivial as cloaks.  That should resound as a testament of this being a very good game.[/quote]
I'm glad you enjoyed the game. And we'll always consider any reasonable and polite request, even if they've come up many times before. As I said before, we're well aware of the bells & whistles that players would like to have -- sadly, bells & whistles are usually in short supply when you're making the kind of game that requires so much content simply to meet basic requirements for the genre.[/quote]
The OP is acting remarkably mature about this, though I'm having trouble not asking questions about your personal life - so at the risk of sounding patronising - have you read most of this forum?? It's full of as I've mentioned, stuff that's much worse, and still being dealt with civilly. Was the original post not polite in comparison? If it wasn't reasonable, couldn't it be possible they weren't aware? In addition the OP felt deceived from seeing cloaks advertised, then not getting any. It's hard to find a topic more justified. Your initial response to this was not fair.
[quote][quote]ashes2flame wrote...
That should have been your first post. I've read several others from you and you really are rude. I don't expect you to kiss your customers ass but you could at least be courteous and if you can't then you shouldn't post here at all. You did great work with the game. I appreciate it. But you are extremely defensive, condescending and seem to get off on opportunities to belittle people. You're not helping yourself, your company or the overall maturaity level (read: enjoyment / relevance) on these forums with your childish behavior.[/quote]
I'll always respond to courteous and reasonable posts in kind. Beyond that, I'll leave it to my company to decide how well I represent them. Thanks for the feedback, anyhow.[/quote]
I don't know about your other posts, but from what I've seen I agree as much as I can from one thread..how you expect to cultivate a helpful kind community by only perpetuating the petty bullying is beyond me.
What's different is, he's in a position of status, responsibility and is (we're told) supposed to be trying to help. If he wasn't a Bioware employee it would just be another case of bullying, but it's not, now it's bullying that you can't do anything about. It's for some reason completely legit and acceptable if you're a mod?
On top of that I would think they would lead by example, I'm worried about the encouraging influence this is on other users, the more impressionable that are easily being shown sadistic "humour" is okay.
"The Social site, the forums and all BioWare websites are a central place for discussion on BioWare and our games, both past and present. They are very important to BioWare staff as a direct conduit to our fans. Please respect these sites, staff, volunteer moderators and all community members."

Lastly, my actual opinion on the topic: Just before this I was reading a thread on the distinct lack of high end rogue armour, yet the endless supply of heavy armour. I see an opening here. This would make cloaks not obligatory for all characters but still useable in the armour slot, especially for rogues themselves.
I don't really remember much about cloaks but I think they were concealing in ways, for face, sometimes as camouflage to blend in from afar and as any cloth can entangle or possibly distract I'm sure there could be applicable bonuses/penalties under certain conditions (like the pinning shot penalty). I also thought, though, that as a cloak IS more concealing on the body in general it'd make you essentially harder to hit (actually be damaged), as an opponent can't tell what position or where exactly your body is in all the drapiness, and they'd of course need to quickly disentangle their weapon to have at you again if they missed. The armour bonus could be made nearer to heavy armours for that fact.
Wikipedia: "Because they keep a person hidden, the phrase cloak and dagger has come to refer to espionage"
I don't think I'll hang around here much after this, disenchanted as a whole with everything surrounding this game (still not got my problems with it addressed by either source, coincidence!). I know I wasn't around long enough to be missed, and I definitely won't be after this post so I'm not exactly losing anything.
Note: This wasn't meant as some sort of Gaider bashfest and I'm well aware I'm going to be made fun of for this, but I don't want to be a part of a forum where derogatory treatment is accepted, encouraged and glorified.[/quote]

DAMN DUDE THATS A LOT OF WORK TO TYPE ALL THAT!
EPIC POST!

Modifié par MR-9, 13 décembre 2009 - 05:59 .

[DragonAgeNeedsCapesOrCloaks]

RageGT wrote...

DragonAgeNeedsCapesOrCloaks wrote...
How ridiculous is it that this is a fantasy RPG with weapons and armor and magic and all that good stuff and there are no cloaks or capes in the game.

@ Somehing

You forgot mine:

RageGT said: "And I love when devs become just regular persons with humor and all, instead of untouchable superhumans rockstars!"

Now, you say to my face my music is "ridiculous" and I'll punch you in the face! No matter how bad it is, really. You don't like it and want to criticise it, do it constructively!

And you say you're brit? Well, in Henley-on-Thames, couple of decades ago, best friends used to punch each other in the face for fun, while waiting for their take-away order in some burger joint. Brit thing I guess... not everybody I know would consider a guy as a friend if the guy punched him in the face!

Perhaps the BW guy didn't like to have his work labeled as ridiculous when in fact the ridiculous is that someone would request capes for the game from a dev team starting with that stupid line!

It is not ridiculous at all that the game has no cloak, although I would love to have them too and as the dev said, they are fully aware of that! There are awesome games out there that don't have capes... Risen, The Witcher, Gothic's, Baldur's Gate, NWN for a loooong time.

If you really need a cape for a game not to be "ridiculous"... go play Batman!!!!

If you really think you can insult someone's work and just be patronized for it, you're taking for granted your right to not be punched in the face! And OP just got "slapped with a soft gloves" as we say here, if that makes any sense in english.

Now, "England national football team is ridiculous because it can never beat Brazil!" How does that make you feel? Please don't punch me in the face... I was only joking! I like premier league, although the rest of my statement is true! =)

I don't really see how you got that from my post.  I never said the game was ridiculous and its kind of annoying that your saying that i said that.  When i said that I think it's ridiculous the "it" i am referring to is the situation.  I am referring to the fact that they are left out being ridiculous.  I actually like the game.

[MR-9]

I like it too, a lot. That's why this bothers me. If I didn't care it woudn't bode well for the game.

[Wolfwing0100]

It's amazing how much people get so serious

[MR-9]

Wolfwing0100 wrote...

It's amazing how much people get so serious

It happens every day from what I hear. All over the world, in fact.
It's an epidimic, it must be stopped...

[MR-9]

Catt128 wrote...

MR-9 wrote...

Alright, I'm going to bed. Someone else white knight this thread for a while.

ROFL. Sleep well. <3

[Adria Teksuni]

As far as there never being cloaks in the game MR-9, I forgot about Infinity. Oopsage.

[MR-9]

Adria Teksuni wrote...

As far as there never being cloaks in the game MR-9, I forgot about Infinity. Oopsage.

No worries, I spend most of my day trying to forget about infinity and focus on the task at hand. We go when our time is up and that's all there is to it.

[David Gaider]

DragonAgeNeedsCapesOrCloaks wrote...
Hey man i was annoyed when i posted my thread and apparrently so were you when you responded.  I think it would be appropriate to offer up an apology if i offended you in any way.  Let's move forward amicably...And get to work on those damn cloaks! (just joking lol)

Then I apologize as well. I was no doubt snippier in my initial response than I needed to be, having read more acrimony into your post than you perhaps intended.

It certainly is gratifying, as well, to see that there are always third parties about to cluck their tongues and wag their fingers at me in disapproval of my insufficient corporate responsibility whenever I respond to someone else in a way that they don't like. I suppose it is worth remembering that I am supposed to be above other human beings and always respond to obnoxious behavior in kind, vague platitudes that don't ruffle any feathers.

[Adria Teksuni]

*clucks tongue and wags finger at David*

[Wolfwing0100]

Wow

[foil-]

Cloaks have been asked for from BioWare since BG came out on the first forums. If my recollection is correct, before horses, before z-axis, before flight, the major request for BG was cloaks. Peoples imagery of fantasy includes them. They seem to have some senior staff who just doesn't like how they look.

Once Neverwinter Nights 2 was passed to Obsidian, cloaks all of a sudden made an appearance and were simply some bones added to the character with some animation. And they look decent. Not as good as cloth animation, but still fairly impressive and efficient.

When ToEE came out, their 3d characters had nice looking flapping cloaks.

If I had to choose between shields and weapons "sheathed" on the characters back versus cloaks: definitely cloaks.

Modifié par foil-, 13 décembre 2009 - 06:27 .

[Wolfwing0100]

loaks have been asked for from BioWare since BG came out on the first forums. If my recollection is correct, before horses, before z-axis, before flight, the major request for BG was cloaks. Peoples imagery of fantasy includes them. They seem to have some senior staff who just doesn't like how they look.







Once Neverwinter Nights 2 was passed to Obsidian, cloaks all of a sudden made an appearance and were simply some bones added to the character with some animation. And they look decent. Not as good as cloth animation, but still fairly impressive and efficient.







If I had to choose between shields and weapons "sheathed" on the characters back versus cloaks: definitely cloaks.



I Agree

[Wolfwing0100]

If we had cloaks there would be alot of defects like the enemy's will grab it and use it to choke you

[MR-9]

David Gaider wrote...

DragonAgeNeedsCapesOrCloaks wrote...
Hey man i was annoyed when i posted my thread and apparrently so were you when you responded.  I think it would be appropriate to offer up an apology if i offended you in any way.  Let's move forward amicably...And get to work on those damn cloaks! (just joking lol)

Then I apologize as well. I was no doubt snippier in my initial response than I needed to be, having read more acrimony into your post than you perhaps intended.

It certainly is gratifying, as well, to see that there are always third parties about to cluck their tongues and wag their fingers at me in disapproval of my insufficient corporate responsibility whenever I respond to someone else in a way that they don't like. I suppose it is worth remembering that I am supposed to be above other human beings and always respond to obnoxious behavior in kind, vague platitudes that don't ruffle any feathers.

It's a job, you have a boss. I'm sure you'll know if you screw up.

[DragonRageGT]

DragonAgeNeedsCapesOrCloaks wrote...

RageGT wrote...

DragonAgeNeedsCapesOrCloaks wrote...
How ridiculous is it that this is a fantasy RPG with weapons and armor and magic and all that good stuff and there are no cloaks or capes in the game.

stuff

Perhaps the BW guy didn't like to have his work labeled as ridiculous when in fact the ridiculous is that someone would request capes for the game from a dev team starting with that stupid line!

stuff

I don't really see how you got that from my post.  I never said the game was ridiculous and its kind of annoying that your saying that i said that.  When i said that I think it's ridiculous the "it" i am referring to is the situation.  I am referring to the fact that they are left out being ridiculous.  I actually like the game.

Oh, english is not my primary, I'm sorry I misunderstood you... but Gaider is what, Canadian? Perhaps he did too? I still think you could have had a better choice of words...

David Gaider wrote...

stuff

I'm glad you enjoyed the game. And we'll always consider any reasonable and polite request, even if they've come up many times before. As I said before, we're well aware of the bells & whistles that players would like to have -- sadly, bells & whistles are usually in short supply when you're making the kind of game that requires so much content simply to meet basic requirements for the genre.

stuff

[MR-9]

They could have pushed back the release date. It honestly wouldn't have broken my heart.