201 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord Goose]

from what I see in the endings, destroy is the only one that completely ends the reaper threat. It might not be the "best" but it's definitely the most final.

What makes you think so? In all cases you will have the same message about ending the Reapers threat. And the same vision of the future.

The only difference, what Shepard may survive. But it is also logical, if you pay attention to that exactly Renegade says in before his final speech, for example.



As you can see, he advocates straight "kill or be killed strategy". And in destroy Renegade chooses to kill. Som it makes sense, what he wouldn't die, because Renegade is not wrong. He is correct, but in his own way.

[Taboo]

Control grants an obscene amount of power to one being.

You don't play god, you ARE a god.

Destroy is the only thing that resets the doomsday clock in a manner that doesn't affect the Universe on a fundamental level. You have a god in Control and a galactic rewrite in Synthesis.

Repugnant.

[Shallyah]

Of all the brilliant arguments that Pro-Control people make up on the fly, the one I love most is where they try to guilt-trip Pro-Destroy people for (theoretically) destroying the Geth and next line they openly claim they'll keep the Reapers slaved for eternity or even coldly order them to fly into a sun to watch them die.

Control is Paragon, indeed. Yes indeed.


(In b4 they make up on the fly another half dozen excuses explaining why Reapers are less of a race than Geth, or that they deserve whatever comes to them without noticing they're falling into two of the greatest Renegade faults - Racism and vengeance.)

Modifié par Shallyah, 30 mai 2012 - 11:02 .

[Taboo]

It reminds me of something I read in an objectivist manifesto once.

ITS ABOUT YOU.

YOU YOU YOU.

BLEUGH.

Control is just as bad as the others.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 30 mai 2012 - 10:54 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Control grants an obscene amount of power to one being.

You don't play god, you ARE a god.

Destroy is the only thing that resets the doomsday clock in a manner that doesn't affect the Universe on a fundamental level. You have a god in Control and a galactic rewrite in Synthesis.

Repugnant.

And a benevolent god I am!

Like Christian god in the Simpsons. 

[NYG1991]

Lord Goose wrote...

from what I see in the endings, destroy is the only one that completely ends the reaper threat. It might not be the "best" but it's definitely the most final.

What makes you think so? In all cases you will have the same message about ending the Reapers threat. And the same vision of the future.

The only difference, what Shepard may survive. But it is also logical, if you pay attention to that exactly Renegade says in before his final speech, for example.



As you can see, he advocates straight "kill or be killed strategy". And in destroy Renegade chooses to kill. Som it makes sense, what he wouldn't die, because Renegade is not wrong. He is correct, but in his own way.

I say "ends the reaper threat" cause it kills them all. Control bothered me cause I wasn't completely sure about actually being able to control the whole reaper fleet. Synth just seemed weird to me and it didn"t really address what happens to the reapers. 

That was my thought process the first time I played the ending. My EMS wasnt 100% maxed so I could picture Shep trying to control the reapers and failing or Synthesis messing everybody up(16 different endings ) so iI went with the simple solution. 

[Lord Goose]

Control grants an obscene amount of power to one being.

You don't play god, you ARE a god.

By "playing God" I was meaning, what Shepard will force his decisions on untold billions of living beings in the sort of same way as Catalyst was doing. People would rather kept their own forms, not turning into hybrids.

The power have nothing to do with it. It is possible to play God even without special powers. Unless Shepard decides to abuse power, Control is paragon. Considering how "ethical" true paragon is, I dout what it would happen.

Destroy is the only thing that resets the doomsday clock in a manner that doesn't affect the Universe on a fundamental level.

Throught the games, Paragon never makes sacrifice if he have a choice. And he is not afraid of making decisions which are based solely on ethics rather than on rationality. For example, saving the Reaper base is rational because it would help you fight the Reapers, but its unethical.

they'll keep the Reapers slaved for eternity or even coldly order them to fly into a sun to watch them die.

Paragon also have no problem with shooting people in face, if they're dangerous, criminals and such. And most certainly he would have no problem with putting criminals for life-long detention if its necessary.

[Lord Goose]

My EMS wasnt 100% maxed so I could picture Shep trying to control the reapers and failing or Synthesis messing everybody up(16 different endings ) so iI went with the simple solution.

I'm not saying that you were wrong. After all the point of ME what everybody writes their own story. I just consider that Control is Paragon, and Destroy is Renegade.

Take Rachni Queen for example. Chances that she will repeat Rachni Wars are higher than Control going wrong (at very least, the possibility of her going berserker is stated in game, while failing control is mostly fan's conjecture). Still, setting her free is Paragon, regardless of risks.

I think they sorta tried to "teach us" that extremis is wrong, and the best course of action is trying to find balance between Paragon and Renegade. At least, some Paragon choices would provide you new opportunities, while Renegade choices will sometimes set you free from backfires.

Modifié par Lord Goose, 30 mai 2012 - 11:09 .

[Shallyah]

Lord Goose wrote...

Paragon also have no problem with shooting people in face, if they're dangerous, criminals and such. And most certainly he would have no problem with putting criminals for life-long detention if its necessary.

Here come the excuses I expected.

I'm sure everyone who made another country or race their slaves thought it was necessary. I'm not sure they thought that making their slaves walk into a volcano was necessary, but apparently that's what a Paragon would do in your understanding. It kind of remembers me of those prisoners that were loaded into trucks in that famous war we all know about, and then released into minefields and ordered to run through it. So many Paragons in this world's history. One wonders why that faction is globally remembered as evil at all.

I'm just glad the dictionary says otherwise, else I'd have to reconsider my real life moralities.

Modifié par Shallyah, 30 mai 2012 - 11:15 .

[Adugan]

Shallyah wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

Paragon also have no problem with shooting people in face, if they're dangerous, criminals and such. And most certainly he would have no problem with putting criminals for life-long detention if its necessary.

Here come the excuses I expected.

I'm sure everyone who made another country or race their slaves thought it was necessary. I'm not sure they thought that making their slaves walk into a volcano was necessary, but apparently that's what a Paragon would do in your understanding. It kind of remembers me of those prisoners that were loaded into trucks in that famous war we all know about, and then released into minefields and ordered to run through it. So many Paragons in this world's history. One wonders why that faction is globally remembered as evil at all.

I'm just glad the dictionary says otherwise, else I'd have to reconsider my real life moralities.

Lets not go there, your post is flamebait

[Shallyah]

Adugan wrote...

Shallyah wrote...

Lord Goose wrote...

Paragon also have no problem with shooting people in face, if they're dangerous, criminals and such. And most certainly he would have no problem with putting criminals for life-long detention if its necessary.

Here come the excuses I expected.

I'm sure everyone who made another country or race their slaves thought it was necessary. I'm not sure they thought that making their slaves walk into a volcano was necessary, but apparently that's what a Paragon would do in your understanding. It kind of remembers me of those prisoners that were loaded into trucks in that famous war we all know about, and then released into minefields and ordered to run through it. So many Paragons in this world's history. One wonders why that faction is globally remembered as evil at all.

I'm just glad the dictionary says otherwise, else I'd have to reconsider my real life moralities.

Lets not go there, your post is flamebait

It's certainly not, but I'm sure it's incomodating to think your morales aren't so flawless.

[Taboo]

I would rather be killed than be a slave.

I would rather kill someone then enslave them for eternity.

[Han Shot First]

Anderson, the most paragony of all paragons, is the avatar for the destroy ending.

TIM, the most renegade of renegades, is the avatar of the control ending.

That should tell you a bit about where the morality of those two endings. Synthesis is supposed to represent a middle ground between those two extremes, a compromise. The confusion over whether or not it is paragon is due to the fact that it was obviously the ending pushed by the writers.

[Shallyah]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I would rather be killed than be a slave.

I would rather kill someone then enslave them for eternity.

Exactly.

[Taboo]

Joey Ramone reminded me on my vacation about how much I hate Synthesis.

And even Control.

JOEY RAMONE.

[Navasha]

Hey, if your morals allow you to believe that playing god and forcing all life in the galaxy to submit to a reaper re-write of their genetic code is a GOOD thing, then more power to you.

Just do me a favor and don't ever run for political office. We have a enough power-crazed wackos rationalizing their deeds away for the "good of all".

[Lord Goose]

I'm sure everyone who made another
country or race their slaves thought it was
necessary.

I don't get it. Is putting someone in jail for life is act of enslavement?

Eh... Reapers were invading galaxy for countless times. They were killing everything and everybody. And they would have done the same thing again in that cycle. Putting them in outer space for eternity is relatively mild punishment.

I would rather kill someone then enslave
them for eternity.

I would rather put someone in jail, than kill him along with innocents.

[Taboo]

The Geth are dead in my playthrough.

You are forcing someone to do something against their will.

You aren't putting them in freaking jail.

Do you plan an epic time out for the Reapers or something?

[The Night Mammoth]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Do you plan an epic time out for the Reapers or something?

A small period of involuntary manual labour, followed by a holiday in the center of the nearest sun. 

[Lord Goose]

Anderson, the most paragony of all
paragons, is the avatar for the destroy
ending. TIM, the most renegade of renegades, is
the avatar of the control ending.

Association fallacy.
Also, where is a reason why Renegade and Paragon are separated. No one is truly perfect/one-dimensional. Even shining paragon may have some black spots on him. Even cynical worn-out renegade could have some soft spots.

[Taboo]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Do you plan an epic time out for the Reapers or something?

A small period of involuntary manual labour, followed by a holiday in the center of the nearest sun. 

I'd put them into a black hole.

Adding mass to a star isn't a good idea.

Still, controlling them is...........not good.

How long do you expect it to take for them to rebuild things? It would take years.

[Shallyah]

You can disguise eternal slaveship as "put them in jail" if it makes you feel better.

But even then, eternity is very long. *puts on Sovereign voice* It's a concept you can't comprehend, as your brain is acclimated to a lifespan of 60-90 years. You'll solve the problem today, but nothing stays in "jail" forever. You're just postponing the inevitable. Yes, your friends and the current generation of people are probably relatively safe, judging by the epilogue that all endings get (granpa and child).

But with Control, how long will it be? 1,000 years? 10,000? The Reapers have lived billions of years, and will live billions of years more. In a mere few thousand years the Reapers will be a fable in some books, nobody will fear or even remember them, and they will be waiting.

Modifié par Shallyah, 30 mai 2012 - 11:44 .

[Lord Goose]

The Geth are dead in my playthrough

Have you ever read my post?
Destroy is renegade only if where are two conditions present:
a) There are other options.
Killing Reapers require sacrificing entire species.

In your case, when, yes, it could be both.

[EricHVela]

Again: This requires head-canon even as the OP admits that we don't really understand the consequences of Synthesis.

We literally are making moral choices in a vacuum.

I believe people tend to favor what is more tangible. The Destroy ending leaves less to the imagination and gives a little more direct feedback to what happens. The other two leave far too many unknowns. That's not saying Destroy doesn't have its own issues with letting us know the full extent of the consequences.

Add to it that Synthesis rings of Saren (regardless if it's not the same thing -- whatever that "matrix" stuff means) and that they show the bad guy using Control, I think it puts people off of those choices.

[The Night Mammoth]

Taboo-XX wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Do you plan an epic time out for the Reapers or something?

A small period of involuntary manual labour, followed by a holiday in the center of the nearest sun. 

I'd put them into a black hole.

Adding mass to a star isn't a good idea.

Perhaps, although the masses are largely insignificant even if they somehow manage to survive proximity.

Still, controlling them is...........not good.

Certainly not good.

I'd say it's preferable to killing an entire sapient species. 

How long do you expect it to take for them to rebuild things? It would take years.

Depends on how much I want them to rebuild. 

If all they do is repair the Relays then who knows, it could be weeks. 

But there are a lot of Reapers, and they're everywhere, and they can move fast. 

It'll put the galaxy in a better position in a much shorter time than destroy does. 

Something unrelated that I've noticed. During these discussions, synthesis is rarely ever brought up. I mean, the Reapers are still around in that too, everyone suddenly becomes part synthetic, and it's likely that most of these problems are solved in that as well. Funny then, that the concept is so widely abhorrent that it's never even considered.