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[estebanus]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Paragon/renegade does not factor into the endings, because all are evil in a sense.

Control: becoming a hypocrite and enslaving a sentient race.

I'm so confused. 

Before this did anyone genuinely care about the Reaper's rights? 

I'm guessing no. We all wanted to kill them, and rightly so, too. 

Why is it now, when people are looking for ever more abstract reasons not to like something, they fall to this insanity?

Ah, you see, there is the crux. Reapers are still sentient life. And they're more alive than other synthetic life will ever be. Yet you would still choose to control them, so that the geth, a race inferior to the reapers, might live? where is the logic in that?

[The Night Mammoth]

Han Shot First wrote...

The only ending that does that is Destroy.

Control does not  fly the Reapers into a Blue Giant or Black Hole, and any suggestion that it does falls under the category of 'head canon.'

So does literally everything else to try and explain what happens. 

The objections that the Reapers might break free? Speculation, headcanon. 

The objections that Shepard dies and doesn't have control? Speculation, headcanon, again. 

The objections that Shepard will just use the Reapers to kill everyone upon turning insane? Speculations and headcanon of monumental proportions. 

But at least I acknowledge it. 

And at least it's something positive instead of the endless cynicism. 

[Lord Goose]

Not even a hint of it.

Sacrifice your allies to kill the enemy.
Sacrifice yourself to get rid of enemy.

Yeah. Not even a little.

[Han Shot First]

Lord Goose wrote...

The last shot we get of the Reapers in
Control is of them flying away to
potentially reap another day.

Well, we also have message about ending the Reaper threat. And dialogue with Stargazer.

The Stargazer dialogue only confirms that the Reapers haven't begun another cycle between the end of ME3, and the era that Stargazer lives. Even if that is a span of thousands of years, the Reapers have been around for billions. It is a blink of a cosmic eye for them.

The only ending that truly and definitively ends the Reaper threat is destroy. The others rely on hope and the word of AI Jake Lloyd.

The objections that the Reapers might break free? Speculation, headcanon.
The objections that Shepard dies and doesn't have control? Speculation, headcanon, again.

The Reapers are definitely dead and unable to begin another cycle in destroy.

The other two endings rest solely on hope that the Reapers will continue to play nice.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 31 mai 2012 - 12:56 .

[Taboo]

The best case scenario is that everyone gets their ending in the EC.

Everybody wins!

Yes?

[The Night Mammoth]

estebanus wrote...

Ah, you see, there is the crux. Reapers are still sentient life.

Machines that have an obvious purpose. 

And they're more alive than other synthetic life will ever be. Yet you would still choose to control them, so that the geth, a race inferior to the reapers, might live? where is the logic in that?

Because the Geth deserve it. 

The Reapers? All they do is kill, manipulate, torture. They have no dicernable emotions, not pity or remorse, not even anger or hate, they are just machines created for genocide and that's all they ever will be.

The Geth are sapient and deserve to exist. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 31 mai 2012 - 01:02 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Han Shot First wrote...

The objections that the Reapers might break free? Speculation, headcanon.
The objections that Shepard dies and doesn't have control? Speculation, headcanon, again.

The Reapers are definitely dead and unable to begin another cycle in destroy.

They're dead when I choose control. 

The other two endings rest solely on hope that the Reapers will continue to play nice.

You choose to see it that way. I'd never advocate synthesis, but I'd defend control. 

[Lord Goose]

Yet
you would still choose to control them, so
that the geth, a race inferior to the
reapers, might live? where is the logic in that?

Where are no such things as superior/inferior sentient life form for a true paragon. Geth units ''have a soul'' and they're your allies, who're helping you.

Reapers are threat for entire galaxy and they deserve to be sent into outer space forever.

Its not question about who is superior life form. It is about guilt and innocence.

[estebanus]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

The only ending that does that is Destroy.

Control does not  fly the Reapers into a Blue Giant or Black Hole, and any suggestion that it does falls under the category of 'head canon.'

So does literally everything else to try and explain what happens. 

The objections that the Reapers might break free? Speculation, headcanon. 

The objections that Shepard dies and doesn't have control? Speculation, headcanon, again. 

The objections that Shepard will just use the Reapers to kill everyone upon turning insane? Speculations and headcanon of monumental proportions. 

But at least I acknowledge it. 

And at least it's something positive instead of the endless cynicism. 

The thing is, that we don't have enough knowledge about the different endings, and as such we can't pass judgement except of morals, therefor, a lot of people headcanon things.

For example: I don't trust the starchild, and as such, I would choose the path I always wanted to choose: to destroy them. Whether EDI and the geth die or not is irrelevant, because I would do that what I personally see as morally right. Whether EDI and the geth die remains to be seen.

[Lord Goose]

The only ending that truly and definitively
ends the Reaper threat is destroy.

In that case, why email is essentially the same? I could argue that with all their corpses around the galaxy someone may have rebuilt them and the cycle has begun again.

[estebanus]

Lord Goose wrote...

Yet
you would still choose to control them, so
that the geth, a race inferior to the
reapers, might live? where is the logic in that?

Where are no such things as superior/inferior sentient life form for a true paragon. Geth units ''have a soul'' and they're your allies, who're helping you.

Reapers are threat for entire galaxy and they deserve to be sent into outer space forever.

Its not question about who is superior life form. It is about guilt and innocence.

Am I the only one who sees the hypocrisy here?

You're saying that a true paragon values all life equally, and as such, the paragon sees the geth on par with the reapers. Yet this paragon would still choose to enslave the reapers, eventhough their life is just as valuable as everyone else's?

[Lord Goose]

I don't trust the starchild,
and as such, I would choose the path I
always wanted to choose: to destroy
them.

If you don't trust him, you shouldn't do anything. Any choice could be a mistake.

[The Night Mammoth]

Taboo-XX wrote...

The best case scenario is that everyone gets their ending in the EC.

Everybody wins!

Yes?

God no I don't want control to actually turn out anything like I imagine it. 

[Taboo]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

The best case scenario is that everyone gets their ending in the EC.

Everybody wins!

Yes?

God no I don't want control to actually turn out anything like I imagine it. 

You will suffer consumer and be pleased with the art Bioware has given you.

CYNICISM IS ART.

[The Night Mammoth]

estebanus wrote...

The thing is, that we don't have enough knowledge about the different endings, and as such we can't pass judgement except of morals, therefor, a lot of people headcanon things.

I know that. 

I headcanon things. 

For example: I don't trust the starchild, and as such, I would choose the path I always wanted to choose: to destroy them. Whether EDI and the geth die or not is irrelevant, because I would do that what I personally see as morally right. Whether EDI and the geth die remains to be seen.

So the potential death of an entire sapient species is irrelevant? 

Wha.....

[Lord Goose]

Yet
this paragon would still choose to enslave
the reapers, eventhough their life is just
as valuable as everyone else's?

Why do we put criminals in jail and punish them, if they are human and we all have same rights?
Its the same here. And I'm not advocating using Reapers. Maybe repairing mass relays maybe acceptable as a form of restitution, and I sincerly prefer not doing this.

[alec1898]

Taboo-XX wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

The best case scenario is that everyone gets their ending in the EC.

Everybody wins!

Yes?

God no I don't want control to actually turn out anything like I imagine it. 

You will suffer consumer and be pleased with the art Bioware has given you.

CYNICISM IS ART.

Wait, cynicism is art? That's freaking sw- Wait, what's happening to me.

I'm Van Gogh?

Wooooooooooooooooooooooah.

[estebanus]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Ah, you see, there is the crux. Reapers are still sentient life.

Machines that have an obvious purpose. 

And they're more alive than other synthetic life will ever be. Yet you would still choose to control them, so that the geth, a race inferior to the reapers, might live? where is the logic in that?

Because the Geth deserve it. 

The Reapers? All they do is kill, manipulate, torture. They have no dicernable emotions, not pity or remorse, not even anger or hate, they are just machines created for genocide and that's all they ever will be.

The Geth are sapient and deserve to exist. 

So the reapers are "just machines?" But what are the geth?
The reapers are also sapient, but they deserve to be enslaved?

Face it: there is no such thing as paragon in the endings, no matter from what perspective you perceive them. Not in destroy, not in control, and most certainly not in synthesis.

[estebanus]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

estebanus wrote...

The thing is, that we don't have enough knowledge about the different endings, and as such we can't pass judgement except of morals, therefor, a lot of people headcanon things.

I know that. 

I headcanon things. 

For example: I don't trust the starchild, and as such, I would choose the path I always wanted to choose: to destroy them. Whether EDI and the geth die or not is irrelevant, because I would do that what I personally see as morally right. Whether EDI and the geth die remains to be seen.

So the potential death of an entire sapient species is irrelevant? 

Wha.....

So the potential of a race eons older than you could possibly comprehend not being able to be controlled by a simple human mind is irrelevant?

Wha...

[The Night Mammoth]

Taboo-XX wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

The best case scenario is that everyone gets their ending in the EC.

Everybody wins!

Yes?

God no I don't want control to actually turn out anything like I imagine it. 

You will suffer consumer and be pleased with the art Bioware has given you.

My 80 page headcanon rewrite pooh-poohs that statement! Ha ha, problem BioWare, I reject your reality and substitute my own!

CYNICISM IS ART.

You know when Anderson and Shepard have their final talk? 

That think they lean back against didn't exist before.

[The Night Mammoth]

estebanus wrote...


So the potential of a race eons older than you could possibly comprehend not being able to be controlled by a simple human mind is irrelevant?

Wha...

Ha, you assume much but know little. 

I do think it's relevant. 

[Lord Goose]

The reapers are also sapient, but they
deserve to be enslaved?

If they're truly sentient, they're resposible for devastating the galaxy. Putting them into dark space is quite mild punishment for such action.
And even if we make them repair Mass Relays its just a really small compensation for all of their atrocities.

[The Night Mammoth]

estebanus wrote...

So the reapers are "just machines?" But what are the geth?

Alive, sapient, worth sacrificing the chance for blind revenge so they can live. 

The reapers are also sapient, but they deserve to be enslaved?

Deserve it? I said nothing about them deserving it, I just don't see any immoral implications with controlling a giant army of souless machines whose potential rights I care not for.

Face it: there is no such thing as paragon in the endings, no matter from what perspective you perceive them. Not in destroy, not in control, and most certainly not in synthesis.

I never said there was. 

That harsh truth you want me to face can just walk on by. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 31 mai 2012 - 01:13 .

[estebanus]

Lord Goose wrote...

Yet
this paragon would still choose to enslave
the reapers, eventhough their life is just
as valuable as everyone else's?

Why do we put criminals in jail and punish them, if they are human and we all have same rights?
Its the same here. And I'm not advocating using Reapers. Maybe repairing mass relays maybe acceptable as a form of restitution, and I sincerly prefer not doing this.

You put criminals in jail, yes, you don't enslave them for all eternity.

A criminal that is responsible for mass murder is normally executed. The reapers are responsible for the destruction of thousands of civilizations.

The jail stuff doesn't work here.

[estebanus]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

estebanus wrote...

So the reapers are "just machines?" But what are the geth?

Alive. 

The reapers are also sapient, but they deserve to be enslaved?

Deserve it? I said nothing about them deserving it, I just don't see any immoral implications with controlling a giant army of souless machines whose potential rights I care not fot. 

Face it: there is no such thing as paragon in the endings, no matter from what perspective you perceive them. Not in destroy, not in control, and most certainly not in synthesis.

I never said there was. 

That harsh truth you want me to face can just walk on by. 

well, then we have come to an agreement, haven't we?

Goodnight/day, good sir/madam!

*Tips hat and takes a stroll in the park with his cane in hand*