410 réponses à ce sujet

[Taboo]

They are going to abuse it as well, especially if they retain free will.

They will oppress those who choose not to change.

[Tealjaker94]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Tealjaker94 wrote...

The funny thing is the guy who started this thread no longer supports synthesis.

Are you serious?

LOL.

How could one possibly pick control or synthesis? Started 9 hours ago by mass perfection

 

Modifié par Tealjaker94, 02 juin 2012 - 04:26 .

[Taboo]

I wasn't paying attention.

He even thanked me for creating my thread about how much I hated Synthesis.

[PsyrenY]

Sisterofshane wrote...

People talk about transhumanism as if it can be enacted as easily as you put on your pants.

That's exactly the question the Crucible asks though. What if it really was as easy as one of us jumping into a beam?

 

Sisterofshane wrote... 
 The fact of the matter is that the idea of abandoning the body as apart of one's identity and "self" is not something you just switch on.

Forcing this change on a multitude of people is not going to go well, despite how beneficial you feel it might be.

Maybe, maybe not. Certainly it would be a shock. But I have faith the majority of us would get over it, and that's BEFORE it takes effect and makes us more mentally resilient.

And yes, I'm speculating, but obviously I wouldn't support it if I didn't feel the result would be good.

[Vigilant111]

Yea I think OP swayed, that is a relieve

[WhiteKnyght]

Taboo-XX wrote...

mass perfection wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

How you ever read a, you know book on these kinds of things?

You can't do this. Ever. It doesn't work that way.

Explain.

Evolution is substrate dependant. That means it will happen regardless. It will never "stop".

What you propose here is some sort of...machine man...something.

I can't think of an appropriate metaphor without going overboard.

1. Mass Effect is a fictional universe with science and knowledge much more advanced than our own. Padok Wiks suggest evolution has a purpose, rather than being completely random adaptations.

2. We haven't known of evolution long enough to know what it is truly capable of.

3. Everything has a beginning and an end.

[Sisterofshane]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

People talk about transhumanism as if it can be enacted as easily as you put on your pants.

That's exactly the question the Crucible asks though. What if it really was as easy as one of us jumping into a beam?

 

Sisterofshane wrote... 
 The fact of the matter is that the idea of abandoning the body as apart of one's identity and "self" is not something you just switch on.

Forcing this change on a multitude of people is not going to go well, despite how beneficial you feel it might be.

Maybe, maybe not. Certainly it would be a shock. But I have faith the majority of us would get over it, and that's BEFORE it takes effect and makes us more mentally resilient.

And yes, I'm speculating, but obviously I wouldn't support it if I didn't feel the result would be good.

I was talking more about transhuman ideals than I was about the ability to place every being in a trans-organic state.  People tend to be very attached to themselves - just look at the guy in hospital in ME3 who didn't want a prosthetic while he waited for his new cloned leg to grow.

The idea is brushed upon with Shepard's ressurrection.  Is that person truly Shepard?  Perhaps Shepard was not truly dead...we even see Shepard him/herself questioning in the end if they are who they believe they are.

So, again the body can be changed, but you can't force the person to accept this change.

Modifié par Sisterofshane, 02 juin 2012 - 04:43 .

[Taboo]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

mass perfection wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

How you ever read a, you know book on these kinds of things?

You can't do this. Ever. It doesn't work that way.

Explain.

Evolution is substrate dependant. That means it will happen regardless. It will never "stop".

What you propose here is some sort of...machine man...something.

I can't think of an appropriate metaphor without going overboard.

1. Mass Effect is a fictional universe with science and knowledge much more advanced than our own. Padok Wiks suggest evolution has a purpose, rather than being completely random adaptations.

2. We haven't known of evolution long enough to know what it is truly capable of.

3. Everything has a beginning and an end.

EPIC FAIL.

Being a fictional narrative does give it the right to insult the audience. If many Pro-Synthesis people will tell you how awful the presentation is.

There is no end to evolution. This is science. You do not get to magic it away.

[mauro2222]

If it grants immortality, the amount of suicides is going to make lol.

[Taboo]

mauro2222 wrote...

If it grants immortality, the amount of suicides is going to make lol.

I'd call that a living hell.

[PsyrenY]

Sisterofshane wrote...

I was talking more about transhuman ideals than I was about the ability to place every being in a trans-organic state.  People tend to be very attached to themselves - just look at the guy in hospital in ME3 who didn't want a prosthetic while he waited for his new cloned leg to grow.

This is a poor example. He refused the prosthesis because he was sulking (due to the delay before he could be able to rejoin his squad) - it had nothing to do with some metaphysical attachment to his unaltered body or moral stance against prosthetics. The fact that the doctor suggested the prosthetic so quickly makes it a common recommendation in cases like his, which further belies your belief in some metaphysical attachment between a person and his unaltered body. (i.e. they wouldn't be suggesting prosthetic limbs if nobody ever took them.)

In addition, we have folks being implanted and upgraded left and right in the ME-verse - every single biotic, for instance, and even the soldiers with their ocular implants. Are they not attached to themselves either?

Sisterofshane wrote... 
The idea is brushed upon with Shepard's ressurrection.  Is that person truly Shepard?  Perhaps Shepard was not truly dead...we even see Shepard him/herself questioning in the end if they are who they believe they are.

Shepard only questions this once s/he learns how close his/her body came to being completely unrestorable. Not only does the existential crisis pass quickly, we also have EDI confirm that Shepard's mind is organic earlier in the game.

Sisterofshane wrote... 
So, again the body can be changed, but you can't force the person to accept this change.

I would have no intention of doing so. Time would do that.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 02 juin 2012 - 04:51 .

[Krunjar]

Yeah a new superstructure of life granting the intellectual dexterity stoicism and logic of AI combined with the passion artistry and emotional maturity of organic life. That sounds so terrigle. Yeah being a human is so great. Like you know not being able to do simple sums in your head and being fragile as a set of tissue paper armor. I especially love our tendency to start wars with each other over trivial crap that all logic aught to tell us isn't worth the cost. Not that humanity dousn't have it's good points. But anyone who thinks that the human condition could stand no improvement has lived a very sheltered or very lucky existance. That said i wouldn't want to live as an AI either. Their life seems logical and comfortable but shockingly dull and hollow.

Synthesis is the good ending that's where I stand.

Modifié par Krunjar, 02 juin 2012 - 04:52 .

[mauro2222]

I don't see how synthesis is going to stop wars...

[Taboo]

mauro2222 wrote...

I don't see how synthesis is going to stop wars...

It doesn't.

The Krogan still the hate the Salarians guts.

Don't worry though, they are upgraded.

HOW FUN.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 02 juin 2012 - 04:57 .

[PsyrenY]

mauro2222 wrote...

I don't see how synthesis is going to stop wars...

The Catalyst only cares about one type of conflict - synthetic vs. organic. And he isn't even trying to stop that one, he just doesn't want it to be one-sided due to a tech singularity and result in us being wiped off the galaxy.

[mauro2222]

Taboo-XX wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

I don't see how synthesis is going to stop wars...

It doesn't.

The Krogan still the hate the Salarians guts.

Don't worry though, they are upgraded.

HOW FUN.

You mean, the Krogan-hybrids still hate the Salarian-hybrids guts?

Or how the human-hybrids are still afraid of the unknown.

Modifié par mauro2222, 02 juin 2012 - 04:59 .

[mass perfection]

Optimystic_X wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

I don't see how synthesis is going to stop wars...

The Catalyst only cares about one type of conflict - synthetic vs. organic. And he isn't even trying to stop that one, he just doesn't want it to be one-sided due to a tech singularity and result in us being wiped off the galaxy.

How does Synthesis solve that?

[Taboo]

Optimystic_X wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

I don't see how synthesis is going to stop wars...

The Catalyst only cares about one type of conflict - synthetic vs. organic. And he isn't even trying to stop that one, he just doesn't want it to be one-sided due to a tech singularity and result in us being wiped off the galaxy.

He still doesn't factor in variables.

He does not allow for the addition of a feedback loop into a hyperbolic growth curve.

I don't want to hear this bull**** that I have to take what he says at face value either, because such a powerful being should be able to go along with the scientific method.

[mauro2222]

Optimystic_X wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

I don't see how synthesis is going to stop wars...

The Catalyst only cares about one type of conflict - synthetic vs. organic. And he isn't even trying to stop that one, he just doesn't want it to be one-sided due to a tech singularity and result in us being wiped off the galaxy.

Not talking about that, and time itself is going to make sure that pure organics appear again to create pure synthetics.

And actually, the solution lies in the geth conflict or how EDI killed everyone on Luna base.
Don't try to kill them out of fear.

Modifié par mauro2222, 02 juin 2012 - 05:02 .

[Taboo]

mauro2222 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

I don't see how synthesis is going to stop wars...

It doesn't.

The Krogan still the hate the Salarians guts.

Don't worry though, they are upgraded.

HOW FUN.

You mean, the Krogan-hybrids still hate the Salarian-hybrids guts?

Or how the human-hybrids are still afraid of the unknown.

Enticing isn't it?

You violate everyone's right to consent and don't resolve the issues they have bewtween each other!

They simply can make themselves more powerful now!

****ing amazing isn't it?

[Krunjar]

I didn't say it would stop wars altogether. I simply said we have a tendency to start wars over trivial crap. I would hope that the synthetic influence would allow us to become more logical and controlled as a species and not let our over inflated egos do all our thinking. I am not saying we should change completely but less rash and impulsive I could see as a definate plus. And might well work to quell some of those old animosities you talk about. Hell if you played paragon they where already well on their way to burying the hatchet imho. And thats before they get there sanity upgrade.

Do I have a scientifically proved basis for this? No of course not. I don't intend to argue the point with you. I think people like you who act like their personal opinion is kanon for the mass effect universe are just pitiable. I stated MY enterpretation. And said that was where I stand. Even now you reply in an attempt to debunk me as if somehow my enterpratation somehow threatened youre own sense of completeness/dissapointment/entitlement.As if somehow the ME universe was real and i was lying about it. Slandering the good word of those that "understand the truth"

People need to get over themselves.

Modifié par Krunjar, 02 juin 2012 - 05:11 .

[Taboo]

Krunjar wrote...

I didn't say it would stop wars altogether. I simply said we have a tendency to start wars over trivial crap. I would hope that the synthetic influence would allow us to become more logical and controlled as a species and not let our over inflated egos do all our thinking. I am not saying we should change completely but less rash and impulsive I could see as a definate plus.

Ah, yes. Look here folks. Moral relivitism at it's finest.

[PsyrenY]

mass perfection wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

mauro2222 wrote...

I don't see how synthesis is going to stop wars...

The Catalyst only cares about one type of conflict - synthetic vs. organic. And he isn't even trying to stop that one, he just doesn't want it to be one-sided due to a tech singularity and result in us being wiped off the galaxy.

How does Synthesis solve that?

By letting us keep up. The synthetics' superiority takes a number of forms - they can communicate nonverbally (speed of light), evolve/self-modify in moments, absolutely control their speed of propagation, take energy directly from stars instead of from inefficient digestive processes, learn new concepts in seconds, and communicate directly with the tools we rely on. Combined, these advantages allowed them to achieve technology in 300 years that the rest of the galaxy could not reach in 50,000.

Nanotechnology within us, however, could theoretically bridge all of these gaps. To be a successful solution, Synthesis must address these flaws to repair the balance of power.

[PsyrenY]

mauro2222 wrote...

And actually, the solution lies in the geth conflict or how EDI killed everyone on Luna base.
Don't try to kill them out of fear.

You're kidding right?

EDI killed everyone on Luna by accident. She woke up during a training exercise and thought she was genuinely under attack. Can you imagine if she had access to more firepower? Would she have bombarded Earth, Skynet-style, and triggered another war before realizing the mistake?

[Sisterofshane]

Optimystic_X wrote...

This is a poor example. He refused the prosthesis because he was sulking (due to the delay before he could be able to rejoin his squad) - it had nothing to do with some metaphysical attachment to his unaltered body or moral stance against prosthetics. The fact that the doctor suggested the prosthetic so quickly makes it a common recommendation in cases like his, which further belies your belief in some metaphysical attachment between a person and his unaltered body. (i.e. they wouldn't be suggesting prosthetic limbs if nobody ever took them.)

In addition, we have folks being implanted and upgraded left and right
in the ME-verse - every single biotic, for instance, and even the
soldiers with their ocular implants. Are they not attached to themselves
either?

It had everything to do with the loss of the limb - even with a fully functioning prosthetic he ceased to be himself.  He was counting on the Doctor returning "his" leg to him (even though it would be a clone).  He was sulking because it would take longer then he thought it would.

Besides, the loss of a limb in the present world is considered to be very traumatic.  Many people DON'T accept such a loss, and the only difference between this world and Mass Effect is that people here have no other choice.  The prosthetic therefore becomes the only way for an amputee to return to some state of "normalcy".

Most people don't wake up from a horrific car accident thinking "Wow, cool, I have a fake leg now!".

What we see from the implants is that people are beginning to accept that they are no longer limited by their physical body.  This doesn't mean, however, that people are completely ready to part with their physical self.  And our state of "readiness" doesn't apply to primitive cultures and the like, who would be no were near us in terms of technological and medical advancements.

Shepard only questions this once s/he learns how close his/her body came to being completely unrestorable. Not only does the existential crisis pass quickly, we also have EDI confirm that Shepard's mind is organic earlier in the game.

Which is why I say "brushed upon".  It would have been really cool to really explore this in the game, but they didn't.  It still demonstrates a crisis of identity, and Shepard was presumably changed in no way similar (based on what I can see in the end) to what happens in Synthesis.  Shepard needs to be implanted to live - how exactly would you explain your reasons of Synthesis to the average person?  I bet less people would be capable of just shrugging off such a violation to themselves.

Sisterofshane wrote... 
So, again the body can be changed, but you can't force the person to accept this change.

I would have no intention of doing so. Time would do that.

And natural evolution also gives people the time to accept such changes, and in a way that doesn't violate individuals rights.  They will make the changes as they are ready, and Synthesis is unnecessary.