410 réponses à ce sujet

[Dendio1]

dreman9999 wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...



What proof do you have that all synthetics will be more merciful, once given the ability to outclass organic life in every way. This isn't isolated to the geth, but to all future synthetics as technology continues to advance.

We can't prove one or the other. Both outcomes may happen. Some say that given enough time both outcomes WILL happen. I say the possibility alone is enough reason to prevent giving synthetics such an overwhelming advantage over organics.

What proof do you have that humans won't one day blow up the universe?

 To preserve organic life, the reapers stop organics from achieving technological advancement where they could end up wiping themselves out ( blowing the universe up, creating AI that could achieve technological singularity etc). The catalysts method of halting advancement is to destroy civilations, while preserving genetic code ( and minds??) in reaper form. The lesser civilizations begin the cycle anew.

Do you understand that's forced evoultion and you didn't awnser the question....

The reapers use the relays as a form of control over organic development. The mass effect technology becomes the center piece of organic development. This gives the reapers a ballpark number (50,000 years) of when its time to go in and cease technological advancement. It also gives them an advantage in combating tech they already know of.

Whether or not the humans WILL blow up the universe is irrelivant because star kid endeavors to destroy their civilization before they become capable. Star kid believes that once organics develop tech that can lead to their destruction, it eventually will. This is an entity that has existed for billions of years. His perspective is different from shepards....and the players ( which is why the narrative shift is so disorienting).

Your still agreeing with me that the reapers force evolution And you still haven't give proof to you assumption that organic life will destroy thems selves.

I absolutely agree that reapers control organic evolution to a degree. Legion says as much if you ask him why the geth rejected sovereign and his gift. The geth want their own future, free of reaper influence. There is more than one way to achieve technological singularity.

You want proof for a future event, I can't time travel. The best I can do is link the theorem behind star kids logic.

Modifié par Dendio1, 31 mai 2012 - 08:07 .

[The Night Mammoth]

dreman9999 wrote...
Look at any domecicated animal or planet...It can.

Selective breeding, a basic form of genetic engineering, is not evolution. 

And the reapers are forcing evolution by making every advance life into reapers.

What does their phrase"Asension throught distruction" mean?

Listen to harbinger in ME2 and it's clear their intetions is to force evolution.

Nope. 

Evolution can't be forced, it is by nature a natural process based on the concept of random mutations. 

What the Reapers do is not 'evolution', they are killing everyone and forcing them to become Reapers. 

If I kill you and use your bones as a house, are you evolving? 

[Taboo]

We assume the Universe will be around long enough.

Do we have an estimate of how long it will go on?

We only have theories right? Big rips and Crunches are possibilities yes?

You also have to assume that in the scenario, the monkeys have access to a computer.

[M0keys]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...
Look at any domecicated animal or planet...It can.

Selective breeding, a basic form of genetic engineering, is not evolution.

This is an interesting question. If a species changes over a very long period of time to better survive with another species, is that not evolution? If not, then is mankind in a period of evolutionary stasis since we are now more likely changing ourselves than nature is changing us?

[AtlasMickey]

 It couldn't have ended any other way.

[Reign Tsumiraki]

I love the idea of WILLING Synthesis. 

It means that the species arrived at it with it's own technology and ideals.

Not have the unknown technology of others forced on them.



Willing Synthesis=/= Forced Synthesis

Willing synthesis >>>>>>>>>Forced synthesis

[The Angry One]

Dendio1 wrote...

I absolutely agree that reapers control organic evolution to a degree. Legion says as much if you ask him why the geth rejected sovereign and his gift. The geth want their own future, free of reaper influence. There is more than one way to achieve technological singularity.

You want proof for a future event, I can't time travel. The best I can do is link the theorem behind star kids logic.

That's not logic, that's a fallacy. Given an infinite amount of time, anything can happen.
That is not a justification for anything.

[Taboo]

AtlasMickey wrote...

 It couldn't have ended any other way.

Actually it could have.

Have you ever experienced...............ART HOUSE cinema?

[Dendio1]

Taboo-XX wrote...

We assume the Universe will be around long enough.

Do we have an estimate of how long it will go on?

We only have theories right? Big rips and Crunches are possibilities yes?

You also have to assume that in the scenario, the monkeys have access to a computer.

Monkey's having access to a computer is a problem. No computer, no way for them to type shakespare. The catalyst agrees.

Star kid sees sufficiently advanced technology as being the computer and the monkeys as organic life.

His method for keeping the monkeys away is destroying civilizations once they near the capability of creating a computer.

Modifié par Dendio1, 31 mai 2012 - 08:22 .

[Taboo]

Dendio1 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

We assume the Universe will be around long enough.

Do we have an estimate of how long it will go on?

We only have theories right? Big rips and Crunches are possibilities yes?

You also have to assume that in the scenario, the monkeys have access to a computer.

Monkey's having access to a computer is the problem. No computer, no way for them to type shakespare. The catalyst agrees.

Star kid sees sufficiently advanced technology as being the computer and the monkeys as organic life.

His method for keeping the monkeys away is destroying civilizations once they near the capability of creating a computer.

He has a reason to what he says it's just that he doesn't do two things.

A: Provide relevant data to show how he arrived at his conclusion
B: Statistical charts to show the possibility of a singularity happening.

I don't want to hear the "beyond" my comprehension bull**** either. The Catalyst is an AI caught in a feedback loop. He hasn't had any new data for a millenia.

[The Angry One]

Dendio1 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

We assume the Universe will be around long enough.

Do we have an estimate of how long it will go on?

We only have theories right? Big rips and Crunches are possibilities yes?

You also have to assume that in the scenario, the monkeys have access to a computer.

Monkey's having access to a computer is a problem. No computer, no way for them to type shakespare. The catalyst agrees.

Star kid sees sufficiently advanced technology as being the computer and the monkeys as organic life.

His method for keeping the monkeys away is destroying civilizations once they near the capability of creating a computer.

You do realise that, according to your analogy, the Catalyst is the one giving them the computer?

[gert56nom]

Just to point out if you need a huge discussion to just understand the ending of anything, then the ending has failed

[Taboo]

The Catalyst is so full of **** it's not even funny. He presents data and says it will happen?

Where's your peer review Daisy Bell?

He would say that Bigfoot existed and people here would believe him.

Where's the scat? The fur? A body?

All I have is an AI who reached a feedback loop millions of years ago.

[Dendio1]

The Angry One wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

I absolutely agree that reapers control organic evolution to a degree. Legion says as much if you ask him why the geth rejected sovereign and his gift. The geth want their own future, free of reaper influence. There is more than one way to achieve technological singularity.

You want proof for a future event, I can't time travel. The best I can do is link the theorem behind star kids logic.

That's not logic, that's a fallacy. Given an infinite amount of time, anything can happen.
That is not a justification for anything.

Used within the confines of star kids problem it becomes: if organic life develops tech that can destroy all organic life, then given enough time the tech will eventually destroy all organic life.

As I said earlier, imo,  allowing synthetics to develop so far beyond us that we can't comprehend them is a bad idea regardless of whether or not they end up destroying us. Right now if the geth decide to turn on us, we can threaten them with destruction. Post singularity, organics lose all leverage. Synthetics become the dominant power regardless of their intentions.

Modifié par Dendio1, 31 mai 2012 - 08:36 .

[Ieldra]

Thank you, OP, for daring to point this out in a hostile environment. As you see, there are the usual suspects descending on your position in a horde. Don't be discouraged.

I have included this thread in my collection of Synthesis material in the thread A different ascenscion - the Synthesis compendium. I may return to this thread at a later time when I have more time to digest the details.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 31 mai 2012 - 08:37 .

[Taboo]

The Borg are something like that yes?

I'm pretty sure they are fallible.

I've never really watched Star Trek in any capacity but I know that human ingenuity and the capability for MISTAKES can be an advantage.

[Dendio1]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Thank you, OP, for daring to point this out in a hostile environment. As you see, there are the usual suspects descending on your position in a horde. Don't be discouraged.

I have included this thread in my collection of Synthesis material in the thread A different ascenscion - the Synthesis compendium. I may return to this thread at a later time.

Thank you for posting your thread as well, its a great read

[The Angry One]

Dendio1 wrote...

Used within the confines of star kids problem it becomes: if organic life develops tech that can destroy all organic life, then given enough time the tech will eventually destroy all organic life.

Which is a stupid assumption.

As I said earlier, imo,  allowing synthetics to develop so far beyond us that we can't comprehend them is a bad idea regardless of whether or not they end up destroying us. Right now if the geth decide to turn on us, we can threaten them with destruction. Post singularity, organics lose all leverage. Synthetics become the dominant power regardless of their intentions.

In the end, so what? Who cares if organics are dominant or not? If synthetics actually ever get that far?
Nothing says they'll kill anyone. In the current system, organics aren't dominant either. The Reapers are, so hypocrisy much? 

[The Night Mammoth]

Dendio1 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

I absolutely agree that reapers control organic evolution to a degree. Legion says as much if you ask him why the geth rejected sovereign and his gift. The geth want their own future, free of reaper influence. There is more than one way to achieve technological singularity.

You want proof for a future event, I can't time travel. The best I can do is link the theorem behind star kids logic.

That's not logic, that's a fallacy. Given an infinite amount of time, anything can happen.
That is not a justification for anything.

Used within the confines of star kids problem it becomes: if organic life develops tech that can destroy all organic life, then given enough time the tech will eventually destroy all organic life.

That's the very, very basic essence of the point. 

You're missing the specifics. 

As I said earlier, imo,  allowing synthetics to develop so far beyond us that we can't comprehend them is a bad Idea, regardless of whether or not they end up destroying us.

Why? 

You'd deny the right of synthetic life to advance to its full capability out of fear?

Right now if they geth decide to turn, we can threaten them with destruction. Post singularity, organics lose all leverage.

Nope. 

Post singularity, AI's become smarter than us. 

That does not mean they have the instant capability to destroy us. 

Synthetics become the dominant power regardless of their intentions.

They might become the faction with the capability to gain the power to possibly become dominant. 

[The Angry One]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Thank you, OP, for daring to point this out in a hostile environment. As you see, there are the usual suspects descending on your position in a horde. Don't be discouraged.

I have included this thread in my collection of Synthesis material in the thread A different ascenscion - the Synthesis compendium. I may return to this thread at a later time when I have more time to digest the details.

Yes yes yes by all means advertise your cute little tribute to racism.

[Taboo]

Uh.

I recall a thought process involving a computer and chess. It will almost always beat a human player.

Playing Poker however, really messes them up. Why? Because a machine doesn't factor that in. A machine will never understand what a bluff is.

The machines lose against humans all the time because they cannot comprehend anything logical behind a false move.

The Catalyst has the same issue.

[Dendio1]

The Angry One wrote...

Dendio1 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

We assume the Universe will be around long enough.

Do we have an estimate of how long it will go on?

We only have theories right? Big rips and Crunches are possibilities yes?

You also have to assume that in the scenario, the monkeys have access to a computer.

Monkey's having access to a computer is a problem. No computer, no way for them to type shakespare. The catalyst agrees.

Star kid sees sufficiently advanced technology as being the computer and the monkeys as organic life.

His method for keeping the monkeys away is destroying civilizations once they near the capability of creating a computer.

You do realise that, according to your analogy, the Catalyst is the one giving them the computer?

Catalyst would be the one stopping them from acquiring a computer.

Modifié par Dendio1, 31 mai 2012 - 08:44 .

[The Angry One]

Dendio1 wrote...

Catalyst would be the one stopping them from learning to create their own computer.

What's the difference? The Reapers continually give organics the means to rapidly create AI, then as a bonus it usurps those AIs and forces them to exterminate organics.
The Catalyst causes all the problems it claims to prevent.

[AtlasMickey]

Reign Tsumiraki wrote...

I love the idea of WILLING Synthesis. 

It means that the species arrived at it with it's own technology and ideals.

Not have the unknown technology of others forced on them.



Willing Synthesis=/= Forced Synthesis

Willing synthesis >>>>>>>>>Forced synthesis

There comes a point where this dichotomy does not exist. WIth enough intelligence, there is only will and freedom, and no reason for force.

I'm probably giving BioWare too much credit for thinking that with the ending, but there is some precedent in the game for it. When you decide to rewrite the Geth heretics, Legion explains that it wasn't really force as we understand it, but the Geth's version of persuasion, arguing that after all aren't organics persuaded by inserting new information? However I don't think that Synthesis is as simple as rewriting the Geth heretics.

Here's some more food for thought about free will, from Sam Harris. He recently released a rather provocative book, but ultimately non-controversial from a neuroscientific perspective.

Modifié par AtlasMickey, 31 mai 2012 - 08:44 .